Narrow gauge track amidst Swindon Works sidings.

[Will Crompton]

Circa 1972 I went around Swindon Works with my schools railway society for an organised visit and very interesting and impressive it all was too. We were allowed to have a look amongst the scrap lines and I remember seeing some narrow gauge track there. At the time I assumed it was the remains of something akin to the 18 inch gauge network at Horwich. Over the last few years I have seen many photos of the Swindon scrap lines on Flickr but not one of them showed the narrow gauge track. I was beginning to think my memory was playing tricks on me until this week when I came across this picture from a set taken during the Swindon Works open days of the 19th and 20th of May, 1979, uploaded to Flickr by Jamerail which shows the track clearly including a dinky little turntable.

 

I would be intrigued to learn more about this track? Was it just a small section in the scrap area or was it part of a larger network once. When was it built, what was it used for etc etc? Many thanks in advance for any information provided.

 

Edited August 9 by Will Crompton
Correction re. gauge at Horwich

[KeithMacdonald]

Is this it? Marked as "Tramway" on the OS map, hiding in between all the other track.

 

 

Ref: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.3&lat=51.55882&lon=-1.80693&layers=258&b=1&o=100

 

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

We have to zoom out a bit to get a better idea of its location relative to the main GWR works.

I've put a yellow highlighter over the possible location.

 

[Will Crompton]

3 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

We have to zoom out a bit to get a better idea of its location relative to the main GWR works.

I've put a yellow highlighter over the possible location.

 

Many thanks for posting these. It seems to make it clear it wasn't part of an extensive system.

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Will Crompton said:

Many thanks for posting these. It seems to make it clear it wasn't part of an extensive system.

Still intriguing though, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I wonder what it was for?

The map appears to show it running through a building which had been demolished by the time of the photo.

 

[009 micro modeller]

It could as already suggested be a works railway, but a bit simpler than the 18” gauge ones at Horwich and Crewe. If I remember correctly Ryde on the Isle of Wight similarly had a short bit of narrow gauge to help move stuff around the works. Alternatively, is it anything to do with the maintenance of Rheidol locos, or alternatively the GWR-owned slate wagons that ran on the Ffestiniog? Though I doubt either of those would require such a permanent or complex track layout.

 

Edit: it looks on the map as though it’s concentrated around a building of some sort (the concrete base in the photo perhaps). Anything to do with supplying coaling stages?

 

All very interesting in any case.

Edited August 9 by 009 micro modeller

[Mol_PMB]

It looks less than 2' gauge, in comparison with the standard gauge lines.

My hypothesis is that it was for testing something that had to be passed through the building, then returned back around the outside for another pass through.

The narrow gauge line would just have been a simple way of carrying the items to be tested.

Maybe testing of paints, cleaning fluids, heat treatments, or some other process?

 

[009 micro modeller]

6 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It looks less than 2' gauge, in comparison with the standard gauge lines.

My hypothesis is that it was for testing something that had to be passed through the building, then returned back around the outside for another pass through.

The narrow gauge line would just have been a simple way of carrying the items to be tested.

Maybe testing of paints, cleaning fluids, heat treatments, or some other process?

 

I wonder if the use of a wagon turntable rather than a point implies either something that needs to be turned, or that there were previously other tracks leading off it (though there aren’t on the map)?

[t-b-g]

The former GNR shed at Retford had a narrow gauge line with a very similar layout to that which served the coaling stage.

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

The former GNR shed at Retford had a narrow gauge line with a very similar layout to that which served the coaling stage.

As above that’s what I thought of, but now that I look at it again it doesn’t seem to get close enough to the standard gauge to be a coaling stage.

[Will Crompton]

21 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

The former GNR shed at Retford had a narrow gauge line with a very similar layout to that which served the coaling stage.

Now you mention it I've seen similar lines in photos of some of the larger LMS sheds.

[Wickham Green too]

... and it doesn't look to be a loco-shedy sort of area ............. unless someone can identify that big building to its west, my GUESS would be something like a sleeper creosoting plant - though that was at Hayes !

[John Isherwood]

2 hours ago, Will Crompton said:

Circa 1972 I went around Swindon Works with my schools railway society for an organised visit and very interesting and impressive it all was too. We were allowed to have a look amongst the scrap lines and I remember seeing some narrow gauge track there. At the time I assumed it was the remains of something akin to the 18 inch gauge network at Horwich. Over the last few years I have seen many photos of the Swindon scrap lines on Flickr but not one of them showed the narrow gauge track. I was beginning to think my memory was playing tricks on me until this week when I came across this picture from a set taken during the Swindon Works open days of the 19th and 20th of May, 1979, uploaded to Flickr by Jamerail which shows the track clearly including a dinky little turntable.

 

I would be intrigued to learn more about this track? Was it just a small section in the scrap area or was it part of a larger network once. When was it built, what was it used for etc etc? Many thanks in advance for any information provided.

 

 

Whatever ran on it - it had a VERY short wheelbase; viz. the turntable.

 

John Isherwood.

[Cwmtwrch]

35 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

and it doesn't look to be a loco-shedy sort of area ............. unless someone can identify that big building to its west, my GUESS would be something like a sleeper creosoting plant - though that was at Hayes !

The loco shed was the other side of the Gloucester line and further north; this area is at the far western end of the site, with the M&SWJR line beyond it. The shed next to the narrow gauge is described as a timber shed on https://www.shrivenhamheritagesociety.co.uk/listing.asp?listID=585, and the adjacent widely spaced sidings are for timber stacking.

[KeithMacdonald]

Zooming in doesn't reveal much more detail.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Are there any clues from the buildings to the west?

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

... and it doesn't look to be a loco-shedy sort of area ............. unless someone can identify that big building to its west, my GUESS would be something like a sleeper creosoting plant - though that was at Hayes !

 

43 minutes ago, John Isherwood said:

 

Whatever ran on it - it had a VERY short wheelbase; viz. the turntable.

 

John Isherwood.

So maybe some sort of bogie/trolley/bolster type thing, which might lend credence to the sleeper creosoting idea. Although elsewhere (e.g. Beeston) narrow gauge sleeper depot railways were larger systems at more specialised locations. Although one quite specialised and ongoing use of narrow gauge railways in industry is autoclave trolleys (which only have small trolleys on very short bits of track), including for creosoting. In this case though the double-ended access to the building doesn’t seem quite right for that as all the ones I’ve seen pictures of seem to be single-ended. Is there anything else infrastructure-related that might be manufactured there for distribution elsewhere on the railway, apart from sleepers?

 

Edit: if it was an area for stacking timber that does reinforce the sleeper idea. Or is it for moving large pieces of wood/logs through for sawing? Possibly in the style of the ‘carriage’ seen here, but with the other side of the loop and the wagon turntable being used to return the empty trolleys to the start point: https://dominiczino.github.io/Portfolio/Sawmill/sawmill.html

Edited August 9 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

My final suggestion for now (based on a similar setup that I’ve seen the remains of on the site of an old school) is a railway serving a boiler house of some kind, with narrow gauge coal tubs taking coal from a stockpile (perhaps on the hardstanding seen in the photo) topped up less frequently by standard gauge train/wagonloads brought in. Though what such a boiler house would be for and why here in particular I’m not sure.

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, 009 micro modeller said:

My final suggestion for now (based on a similar setup that I’ve seen the remains of on the site of an old school) is a railway serving a boiler house of some kind, with narrow gauge coal tubs taking coal from a stockpile (perhaps on the hardstanding seen in the photo) topped up less frequently by standard gauge train/wagonloads brought in. Though what such a boiler house would be for and why here in particular I’m not sure.

 

Electricity generating plant?

 

John Isherwood.

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, John Isherwood said:

 

Electricity generating plant?

 

John Isherwood.

Possibly, but again is this the most obvious part of the works to put it in? And unless there’s a need to stockpile the coal and handle it in small loads why use a narrow gauge line?

Edited August 9 by 009 micro modeller

[K14]

"The Great Western at Swindon Works" by A.S. Peck has several plans of the area & the 1920 plan shows that it was inhabited by a Timber shed (the main building under discussion) with a Logging Sawmill (inc. Traversing Crane) to the West and a large timber stacking yard to the South. The building to the North is marked as a Timber Drying Kiln.

[Michael Hodgson]

The term "Narrow gauge" meant 4' 8½" in Swindon!

 

There were once a lot of broad gauge sidings at Swindon, especially after the gauge change to store the engines withdrawn awaiting conversion or scrapping.  The site would have been relaid subsequently to suit later requirments, and changed as often as necessary.

[Nick Holliday]

I don’t know if this helps, but this is a screenshot from a 1946 photo from the video excellent Britain From Above website, showing, i think, the area in question. They may have other, better views.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... and it doesn't look to be a loco-shedy sort of area ............. unless someone can identify that big building to its west, my GUESS would be something like a sleeper creosoting plant - though that was at Hayes !

The sleeper creosoting plant was indeed at Hayes, not Swindon and the Switch & Crossing Shop was nowhere near that end of the works.    The building looks a bit too small of a creosoting plant but maybe it was fot some other sort of timber treatment such as fumigation of imported timber.  Although having said that it can't have been easy transferring material between the two gauges due to the distance between them

[KeithMacdonald]

This would have been a perfect question for the GWR Steam Museum in Swindon.

Just a few 100 yards from the location in question.

But, of course, the Reference Library is closed.

https://www.steam-museum.org.uk/collections/reference-library/