RMweb Gold Zero Gravitas Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 I was out on my bike earlier (Triumph Tiger Sport 660, in case anyone is interested), and something unusual happened - I was stopped by the closing of the level crossing on the Wallingford by-pass. The Cholsey and Wallingford Railway train that crossed the road was formed of two Mark 1 coaches, pulled by on 08 shunter; but what caught my eye was that the 08 had no coupling rods fitted - which presumably means it was effectively running as a Single. Which set me thinking - under these circumstances, and working on the basis that the 08 would be treated like a steam engine in that the radiator would be at the "front" and the cab would be at the "back"; then would the wheel arrangement be a 4-2-0 or a 2-2-2 or a 0-2-4? PS: It did look a bit weird, as the cranks were no longer in line - the phrase "drunken insect" sprang to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 According to the Wikipedia article, the 08 has two traction motors, but it does not specify which axles they drive. Assuming they drive the outer axles, I wouldn't like to try to describe the Whyte notation for the uncoupled wheels.... 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 I believe an 08 has a traction motor on each of the front and rear axles, so your loco with no coupling rods would be an A1A as the centre wheel/axle is unpowered. I guess in Whyte Notation it is still a 2-2-2 but I'm not sure how Whyte deals with the powered wheels being the outer rather than the central ones. Andi 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 A1A would make sense for a diesel loco if you treat the frames as a bogie! Wish I'd thought of that... 🙃 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mol_PMB Posted August 4 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4 The GCR's 350 used to be like that (and may still be). I have heard that if you misguidedly try and bump-start them, it bends the rods. And then it's easier to just take the rods off than straighten them and remachine them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 4 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said: The GCR's 350 used to be like that (and may still be). I have heard that if you misguidedly try and bump-start them, it bends the rods. And then it's easier to just take the rods off than straighten them and remachine them! You can't bump start something with electric transmission Andi 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mol_PMB Posted August 4 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4 1 minute ago, Dagworth said: You can't bump start something with electric transmission Andi OK, I was just repeating what I had been told, probably wrongly. Perhaps the rods got bent some other way, like one motor seizing while the other is still powering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted August 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 Didn't nasty things happen to the rods if you flogged an 08 past its permitted maximum speed? 🤔 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Zero Gravitas Posted August 4 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4 31 minutes ago, Dagworth said: I believe an 08 has a traction motor on each of the front and rear axles, so your loco with no coupling rods would be an A1A as the centre wheel/axle is unpowered. I guess in Whyte Notation it is still a 2-2-2 but I'm not sure how Whyte deals with the powered wheels being the outer rather than the central ones. Andi Ah - that makes sense! Although it seems a bit strange to drive two of the axles and still have coupling rods - but clearly it works! I think Whyte notation would struggle here - The best I could come up with would be 0-2-2-2-0, but that's nowhere precise enough to identify the powered and unpowered axles 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted August 7 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7 The "what's the Whyte notation" question probably explains why the UIC system was invented! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jeremy Cumberland Posted August 7 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7 The Industrial Railway Society would call it a 2w-2-2w. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 Years ago Lima did a version of their "09" with no outside cranks or coupling rods. There's one on Ebay at the moment.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265239997684 Don't all rush at once. 😁😉 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium J. S. Bach Posted August 7 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7 Gee, thanks! I almost bought a Lima Deltic!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted August 8 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8 On 04/08/2024 at 17:00, Dagworth said: You can't bump start something with electric transmission Andi Actually in this particular case, you can. Early WD/LMS 350's had a device....aka wooden stick.....to hold in a contactor so that pushing the loco created current from the traction motors then acting as dynamos to turn the prime mover over by motoring the generator. It was soon discovered actually doing this bent the rods more often than not and the stick was withdrawn from the control cubicle. Details of this are in the LMS Locomotive Profile of them by @Dave Hunt and co. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8 Just now, New Haven Neil said: Actually in this particular case, you can. Early WD/LMS 350's had a device....aka wooden stick.....to hold in a contactor so that pushing the loco created current from the traction motors then acting as dynamos to turn the prime mover over by motoring the generator. It was soon discovered actually doing this bent the rods more often than not and the stick was withdrawn from the control cubicle. Details of this are in the LMS Locomotive Profile of them by @Dave Hunt and co. What was the excitation for the traction motors derived from? This was my reasoning that it wouldn't be possible. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted August 8 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8 20 minutes ago, Dagworth said: What was the excitation for the traction motors derived from? This was my reasoning that it wouldn't be possible. Andi I don't know if the residual magnetism would be sufficient (works for traction showman's engines!) to create enough field, or they were depending upon some power still from the batteries there were not powerful enough to start the engine but had some amps left. IIRC the book doesn't go into the detail, I'll look the reference up though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted August 8 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8 There are excerpts from the driver's handbook in the Profile, it just mentions turning the controller to 'emergency start' if the batteries are discharged, turning the direction lever opposite to the direction of travel and holding in the contactor, so the presumption is the motors when driven could produce current without additional field excitation. The technique applied to the jackshaft and twin motor locomotives. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 21 hours ago, F-UnitMad said: Years ago Lima did a version of their "09" with no outside cranks or coupling rods. There's one on Ebay at the moment.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265239997684 Don't all rush at once. 😁😉 Isn't that just their 08 with some bits missing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted August 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8 (edited) I've just located my copy of "The Diesel Electric Shunting Locomotive (Simply Explained)" by Thomas H. Terry, Price 7/6 (Or 8/- post free!), 2nd Edition 1961. The chapter entitled "Emergency Propulsion Start" commences on page 74 and details the measures to be taken to "bump start" a loco with a dead battery. In essence the steps are: Master key ON Reverser opposite to direction of travel Emergency starting switch to left (knifeswitch late 3000 down) Contactor operating stick lifted as far as it will go Lubricating pump in operation The speed of the assisting engine/locomotive 4 MPH and rail sanded for 30 yards to obviate wheels picking up. When the engine fires, the contactor lifting stick must be lowered sharply and removed, reverser set to OFF and the emergency start switch set to normal. Interesting stuff.... Edited August 8 by Hroth Mistype - read before posting, read before posting, read.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippel Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) On 04/08/2024 at 17:00, Dagworth said: You can't bump start something with electric transmission Andi Not sure if you can read the text in the attached photos, but there were instructions to push -start another 350. This instruction also appears in BR33003/25 D3137-51; 3439-53; 3473-3502, BR33003/26 D3152-3166, BR33003/27 D3167-3438; 3454-72; 3503-3611; 3652-71; 3672-4048. These books were all undated but BR33003/252 dated July 1969 refers to 3000-4192; 4500-02; 12033-138; 15211-36 has no reference to this method of starting a 350, possibly in the light of experience? Paul. Edited August 8 by Hippel Scan attached rather than a photo. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippel Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 2 minutes ago, Hroth said: I've just located my copy of "The Diesel Engine Shunting Locomotive (Simply Explained)" by Thomas H. Terry, Price 7/6 (Or 8/- post free!), 2nd Edition 1961. The chapter entitled "Emergency Propulsion Start" commences on page 74 and details the measures to be taken to "bump start" a loco with a dead battery. In essence the steps are: Master key ON Reverser opposite to direction of travel Emergency starting switch to left (knifeswitch late 3000 down) Contactor operating stick lifted as far as it will go Lubricating pump in operation The speed of the assisting engine/locomotive 4 MPH and rail sanded for 30 yards to obviate wheels picking up. When the engine fires, the contactor lifting stick must be lowered sharply and removed, reverser set to OFF and the emergency start switch set to normal. Interesting stuff.... I've got a copy of that, too. Fascinating reading if you like 350s like me! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted August 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8 Nowadays it might have been published as "350HP Shunters For Dummies"... 🤪 I've another book on diesel loco usage of a similar vintage somewhere, hardcovered with a beige cover and many times thicker than the shunter booklet. However I can't remember what it's called or where it is.... 🙄 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: Isn't that just their 08 with some bits missing? (Re Lima 09) No - the axle boxes were fully depicted, with covers molded in place, with no provision for extended axles through the frames to put cranks on. The sideframes for the 'normal' version had slots to clear the extended axles. At this point I have to admit I owned one once, for a very short time, many years ago. I also had a normal one I kept for rather longer, so was well aware of the differences. 😉 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8 17 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said: (Re Lima 09) No - the axle boxes were fully depicted, with covers molded in place, with no provision for extended axles through the frames to put cranks on. The sideframes for the 'normal' version had slots to clear the extended axles. At this point I have to admit I owned one once, for a very short time, many years ago. I also had a normal one I kept for rather longer, so was well aware of the differences. 😉 It also has gears to drive all wheels instead of the coupling rods Andi 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 8 minutes ago, Dagworth said: It also has gears to drive all wheels instead of the coupling rods Andi I'd forgotten that bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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