New terms - commercial content on RMweb

[RichardT]

4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

It's a pity take-up of RMweb premium hasn't been better, a measly quid a month to keep the site running. Plenty of folks with 4 figure post counts not subscribing.

Absolutely.  Decent content - online or offline - needs to be paid for. In another thread people were complaining how thin “Model Railroader” had got compared to the “good old days” when it was stuffed with adverts: that shows what results when you have only the cover price to rely on but still insist on paying proper journalists and having some decent production standards. Moving content online only saves print and distribution costs - the people who write and manage the sites still have to be paid if you want a consistently good product because ultimately they have to

live. (Unless you want AI-generated drivel.) People here were offered the choice of see adverts or make a modest contribution to remove them - it’s a pity not enough haven’t opted for the latter.

 

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

No; that's a benefit of paid membership.

 

<adopts very small voice> Do we have any timetable for when the Forum Gold members classifieds section might be back up and running? The For Sale and Wanted section is lovely but the classifieds were really the thing.

[billbedford]

24 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Absolutely.  Decent content - online or offline - needs to be paid for.

 

But the content on RMweb is free, in the sense that it is not paid for. Whether it is decent is another matter. 

[TT-Pete]

51 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

I remember back in the day when ebay put seller in touch with buyer, no oversight, no consumer protection, no tax reporting, no regulation.

 

I first started using eBay in the early days in the late 90's, when they first introduced seller fees there was much wailing, gnashing of teeth, "how dare they" and "if that's how it is then I'm off" going around. They seem to have somehow stuck around and flourished, strange that.

 

[billbedford]

Maybe, but all the alternatives to RMweb are free. That was never a problem for eBay. 

[MikeB]

Lots of comments on this topic.  Clearly, it’s up to Warners how they attempt to make the RMWeb finances meet their requirements.  What is unclear to me is how this will work in practice as RMWeb is a forum, not one way advertising.  All is OK if manufacturer A decides to pay for advertising and values the feedback it obtains, but what if manufacturer B decides to spend its advertising budget elsewhere but continues to issue news releases to the trade including Warners.  Will these developments not be reported on RM Web?  Also, company size varies: limited companies, sole traders or modellers offering what they have made for themselves to others, with turnover above or below the threshold for VAT registration.  Many owners of these businesses contribute as individuals to discussions in RMWeb and do not merely advertise what they have for sale.  How will these be charged?   What will we as mere users not see?

 

Perhaps this could have been less controversial with more transparency.  A headline banner yesterday saying that new conditions for advertisers would be introduced would have eliminated, at least in part, the surprise of everybody being asked to sign up to new terms and conditions today.  Perhaps necessary given all the variables, but “contact the advertising manager” seems to me to be a bit like those insurance companies that quote a high price when you are due to renew, but offer a better deal if you phone to cancel.  OK, it’s a commercial transaction, but perhaps some list prices would remove the sense that Warners will use each individual contact to extract the most possible money.  I know that’s capitalism, but this seems to me to be a bit against the ethos of freely sharing information and giving support that most contributors to RMWeb make, whether they are involved with a business or not.
 

Edited August 2 by MikeB
typo

[F-UnitMad]

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

At 75, I genuinely carry on with Cambridge Custom Transfers ......

 

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

God willing, CCT may still be around when RMweb is but a memory.

 

We'll see.

Andy & Phil must be disappointed that RMweb is being given such a poor life expectancy...!! 🤔😉🤣

[adb968008]

My reading of this is horses for courses..

 

major manufacturers used to take out back page ads, others centre spreads.

But for the small guy there was always pay by the word classifieds in the back.

 

A lot of folk use their footer for commercial promo in personal posts which I always wondered how that worked… 

 

New rule on advertising seems fair enough to me… ebay would never let you do that !

Edited August 2 by adb968008

[Edwin_m]

10 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It will be self evident if a business posts a topic which is about their products or services; a bit like Ford posting a advert video on Youtube - they don't have to say it includes paid content does it?

 

5 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Not sure if this has been covered, but it may also be helpful if "suppliers" or their product posts are labelled/tagged as such. 

 

Like the RMWeb Gold users.

Glad to see my earlier concern is to be addressed.  

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

That will be evident in due course; subject to some tweaking.

[Garry D100]

[D-A-T]

To my simple way of thinking Warners acquired RMWeb (in the nick of time by the sound of it) not for altruistic reasons but because they saw it benefitting the business model they envisioned for their railway modelling magazine. They effectively bought a ‘turn key’ Forum which provided a benefit for them from day one.

 

Obviously with the cost of running the Forum they decided they cannot sustain a loss making enterprise and therefore decided to (horrible word) ‘monetise’ said Forum. To wit advertisements were introduced (to howls of outrage) and Gold membership. Obviously to raise revenue to maintain the Forum etc but also to alleviate reducing advertising revenue in the print magazine? I don’t expect an answer to that because it would be commercially sensitive. All print media is experiencing hard times at the moment and I’ve no doubt they will get worse so ever more radical or revolutionary solutions will be sort to maintain or increase revenue streams.

 

But (the famous but!) I do worry that this logical step of “charging” commercial enterprises (of whatever size) for promoting their products on RMWeb may, especially for the smaller businesses, make them reluctant to post details of their new products. The major attraction of RMWeb, to me anyway, is the diversity of information you can glean on it. This ranges from fanfare announcements of the big manufacturers to the almost incidental post by a cottage industry. It is the cottage industry that I fear will no longer contribute to RMWeb and it will be the poorer for it. The phrase “throwing the baby out with the bath water” springs to mind.

 

Being involved, in a medium sized way, with the management and promotion of a business website I am acutely aware of the need for traffic to drive advertising revenue. So while the charges for promoting products on RMWeb may generate additional revenue has the potential reduction of paid for advertisements on the site been considered?

 

I believe RMWeb to be a very valuable resource (and a major thief of time!) and genuinely hope that all the implications, good and bad, have been thoroughly thought through. I would hate to lose it. 

Edited August 2 by D-A-T
Typo

[MarshLane]

Andy/Phil,

Just a thought, which may well have been considered and dismissed, and I acknowledge that its difficult to establish and even harder to police, but some of the big software manufacturers (I am thinking like AutoDesk that is behind Fusion360) allows those using the software commercially, but making under a specific limit or who less than 5 members of staff etc) are exempt from the commercial license fees, and are in essence granted a 'free' one year license.  It also allows those of use who just use the software for our own, non-commercial use, needs to gain free access.

 

With the above in mind is there any benefit to saying anyone who is has a commercial interest but a one-man band, or cottage industry, not exceeding say £2,000 income in a year or some similar figure, can continue as before, on the premise that they are contributing to community without making significant money from it? 

 

Just a thought for you guys, and from my point of view, you dont need to answer it!

 

To confirm my stance on the whole thing, given I have voiced the opinion above.  I personally agree with what the new approach. I have been involved in online businesses in the past where other commercial interests want something for nothing, but yet they are making money from our involvement without us getting anything back.  It's not fair and we have asked when we incur costs, why should they make money from us and not help to support us, so I agree with the whole basis and idea, but also acknowledge that maybe there is a fine line for those small situations, such as somebody offering locos or services for sale where they are not making a full time living from it.  But as ever, we are not privy (and we shouldn't need to be) to the inner discussions of Warners.  I also agree that from a business point of view, why should the magazines in the Warners Rail Division support rmWeb?  From a business perspective it has to contribute to the general pot.

 

Can I also add that I think Phil and yourself, excised great restraint in a certain transfers discussion point earlier in the thread, I'd have hit the ban button far earlier!! I also disagree with his views on why people use rmWeb - personally my split is that I spend 15-20% of the time looking at the manufacturers, and 80-85% looking at the modelling, layouts and how to threads - the primary area (in my view) that rmWeb excels at.

 

Rich

[sjp23480]

18 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

With the above in mind is there any benefit to saying anyone who is has a commercial interest but a one-man band, or cottage industry, not exceeding say £2,000 income in a year or some similar figure, can continue as before, on the premise that they are contributing to community without making significant money from it?

@MarshLane I like your idea but the problem is where to draw the line.

 

I am not sure many "traders" are in it for the money?

 

Obviously the larger manufacturers and model shops do decent business.

 

Many "traders" do it in their spare time.  They hold down "real" jobs that pay the bills, are retired or are just happy to cover their costs. 

 

I guess they will either abandon RMweb, or figure out how they recover the cost of placing their products here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

@MarshLane

 

Many "traders" do it in their spare time.  They hold down "real" jobs that pay the bills, are retired or are just happy to cover their costs. 

Yes agreed. But postage costs go up, they adapt. Product costs rise, they adapt. Yes it’s us the consumers that pay in the end, but if someone produces 200 thingys a year, and Warners are (for example) looking for £100 per year, each thingy goes up by 50p, ok, if the public cost is £1.50, it’s a significant increase, if it’s £10, then its only a minor increase. I doubt Warners are looking to small ‘traders’ to foot the full cost of rmWeb! Either way, the trader may view that as a worthwhile Advertising cost to keep his/her products in the public eye, on a daily basis if they wish.

I guess wait and see. A lot depends on what Warners charge, but as @AY Mod Andy has said, it’s not a one size fits all, so it would be down to each trader to decide whether, having had an initial discussion with the ad team, it is worth it or not? At the end of the day I guess if somebody has, for example, a 1/16th ad in the likes of RM, they deem that it’s worth it, if not, they wouldn’t pay for the ad? This in essence is no different.
 

For all we know, Warners may have an approach for the smallest traders of include a flyer for rmWeb Gold with each package and we are good! Both sides get something out of it. But all of us, me included, are (probably wrongly) trying to discuss the pros and cons without being traders, and without knowing what costs, small or large, are involved. Personally I doubt it’s going to make a huge difference. All businesses, no matter how small, have to advertise somehow, if rmWeb didn’t exist would they cease? I doubt it.

 

Maybe we need to back off and wait for the traders affected to decide whether they want to voice an opinion either way, on the matter. After five pages I think the comments, with one argumentative exception(!) have primarily been consumers, or legitimate questions.

 

Rich

Edited August 3 by MarshLane

[kevinlms]

43 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Yes agreed. But postage costs go up, they adapt. Product costs rise, they adapt.

 

Isn't that the point, if postal charges go up, the trader pays the extra cost and bills the customer accordingly. Ranting to the post office or any other supplier, won't restore the charges to the previous level.

[chriswright03]

Surerly it is a reality in life that things change over time.  The fact that Warner's,  who let's face it fund the forum we all benefit from and enjoy have decided that their funding needs to change.  So be it. If the alternative is that Warner's decide to not bother with the forum any more and halt it then I am sure that there will be thousands of members who will miss their daily hit of RMWeb. 

 

What I find so difficult to understand is why one member rather than making a simple enquiry to Warner's to find out what the new terms would mean to his situation has chosen to come on here and voice his opinion in such an overtly aggresive manner. 

 

To avoid any doubt I am neither involved with the trade nor have the need to advertise on here so the new terms do not affect me personally.  If the odd small trader decides that the new terms do not meet their needs and as a result they decide to go elsewhere then that will not affect my use of the forum either.

 

Having said the above I fully understand that some may now having found that their use of the forum to advertise freely has been removed may wish to go elsewhere.  Whilst that may well be a shame for some it is the small trader's option and a simple question of Warner's may make that decision pointless.  Only they will know and understand what they find a fair price to pay for what was free for years.

Meanwhile the plight of one very vocal member does not change the forum in real terms for the vast majority.  We will continue to enjoy the benefits of membership and the time and effort of all involved.

[Garry D100]

23 minutes ago, chriswright03 said:

What I find so difficult to understand is why one member rather than making a simple enquiry to Warner's to find out what the new terms would mean to his situation has chosen to come on here and voice his opinion in such an overtly aggresive manner.

 

Because some people want the last say and dont like it when facts or other opinions deprive them of that.

 

We may need to rename the forum MothercareWeb with the amount of dummies being spat out and toys flying out of prams.

 

 

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Garry D100 said:

We may need to rename the forum MothercareWeb with the amount of dummies being spat out and toys flying out of prams.

 

To be fair a significant number of people with businesses have been in touch to discuss further in a perfectly reasonable manner off-forum. Happy to assist.

[Garry D100]

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

To be fair a significant number of people with businesses have been in touch to discuss further in a perfectly reasonable manner off-forum. Happy to assist.

 

And thats the difference.

Some Most are more professional than others 

Edited August 3 by Garry D100

[NHY 581]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

To be fair a significant number of people with businesses have been in touch to discuss further in a perfectly reasonable manner off-forum. Happy to assist.

 

And that's the crux of it. We have to move with the times and also understand why this decision has been arrived at. I have no issue in contributing towards the running of a forum from which I benefit so much from a social point of view,  as well as in many other ways. 

I do note that the Right Honourable Member for Cambridge also contributes though at a lower though perfectly acceptable Premium level.....though I question who gets more out of that particular deal to be honest. 

 

Perhaps those smaller businesses wishing to trade on RMweb  could be offered an enhanced Platinum membership which provides all the benfits of gold membership but additionally allows them to publicise, offer/ trade on here at the expense of a higher ( as agreed ) monthly premium. 

 

Rob. 

[Stubby47]

41 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Perhaps those smaller businesses wishing to trade on RMweb  could be offered an enhanced Platinum membership which provides all the benfits of gold membership but additionally allows them to publicise, offer/ trade on here at the expense of a higher ( as agreed ) monthly premium. 

 

Are you then distinguishing those who wish to sell items, eg surplus locos, from those who wish to sell services (eg weathering), or is someone who wishes to sell anything defined as a 'trader'?

 

Gold Membership already allows members to sell items, what is the difference between a private seller, and a small trader ?

[martin_wynne]

To my mind, a simple factual response to a question is not advertisement:

 

Q. where can I get a Left-Hand GWR Stationmaster's Hat in 7mm scale?

 

A. I can supply those, my web site is at: ...

 

It would be a shame if someone was prevented from making a helpful reply because they don't have an agreement with Warners. On the other hand, any sort of announcement not prompted by such a query would clearly be an advertisement.

 

Martin.

[chuffinghell]

DELETED

 

Decided to keep my thoughts and questions to myself in future to avoid upsetting others

 

Edited August 3 by chuffinghell

[Colin_McLeod]

23 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Clearly understood - my apologies to the membership, but you will in future have to look elsewhere for news of what I have to offer.

 

As a matter of interest, I have just spent in excess of £600 of my own money to import a refurbished, twenty-five year old Alps printer, so that Cambridge Custom Transfers can continue for a few more years.

 

I have no prospect of recovering this investment, but it is clear that such altruism is beyond the comprehension of today's publishing houses.

 

Sad days - but, hey ho!

 

John Isherwood.

 

Some people on RMweb don't use Facebook, but perhaps that might be an alternative for CCT.  Perhaps a Facebook group devoted to CCT and other small suppliers who are going to get hit by this new rule would be an alternative.   Once it is known about, we can check in from time to time to learn about any new products.

 

Note, this would also be useful for others,not just CCT.

[jjb1970]

As with most things, the simple answer is to ask. I am sure Warners have people who know the answers and will be happy to help. I admit I am guessing here, but based on the history of RMWeb I am sure Warners want the community to thrive, including engagement with small suppliers, so I suspect Warners will have packages and arrangements to suit the spectrum of commercial users. Which circles back to the main point - ask and find out.

[kevinlms]

24 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

I offer 3D printed wagons via the classified section as a gold member

 

Is this still okay?

 

If not it’s fine because I don’t do it to make a profit. It happened by accident after posting about something I’d made for myself and being asked if I could make one for them

 

However maybe hobbyists (not businesses) that sell ‘homemade’ stuff could be offered a ‘gold member plus’ for an extra quid a month?

Why not ask that very question privately, instead of publicly?

 

It is intended to be a business deal, which would be confidential and not general knowledge to everyone. 

From a statement a little earlier, you won't be the first.