Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 17 Author Share Posted August 17 Morning all, I tried the ceramic wicks today and got similar results to the oil lamp ones. However, these wicks did not carbonize into nothingness. Instead, the front bank of wicks went out after 5 minutes of running (as we have seen before), followed by middle bank about 4 minutes later. On removal of the burner I found all the wicks to be in good condition and still capable of burning, so it seems I must not be opening the fuel valve far enough. I’m going to have some lunch and then try again. I usually try and use as little fuel as possible, which may not be ideal here. Here’s a photo of the inside of the firebox showing the burner at full power. Douglas 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 18 Author Share Posted August 18 Today was a very successful day in the workshop. I managed to achieve sustained running under steam! I started by trying out the new ceramic rope wicks. These worked very well, but I was still having the issue of the flame going out as stated above. So I tried again, this time with the needle valve open further. I got a slightly better result, but still nothing longer than three minutes. Then, after I was shutting down from the third test run of the day, I noticed that the needle valve seemed to have closed by itself. This had happened before but I thought nothing of it assuming I had closed it earlier. Could it perhaps be rotating due to vibration? I quick test on air proved that it was. So the entire time the reason for the wicks going out was that the needle valve closing very soon after the engine started running. To solve this issue, I made a small bronze washer and fitted a spring with excerpts vertical pressure and friction onto the valve spindle, stopping it from rotating due to vibration. A quick steam test revealed excellent results. The run time was a shocking 9 minutes and 19 seconds. Rather embarrassingly the boiler ran out of water so in future I will stop all runs at 8.5 minutes. I am extremely pleased with the results though, I was beginning to worry that I may have to do a gas conversion! As this was the first time the engine ran for any time longer than 3 minutes, I was interested to see how it would perform. It runs quite smoothly and with plenty of power, probably not as powerful as the Greenly model @Victorian has, but somewhere near. Here is a link to episode 4 of the YouTube series where I explain today’s trials in more detail. And here’s a shot of the engine with the Russian iron looking much healthier now that it’s been covered in a good layer of hot steam oil (which I find does wonders for metal). The next job will be finishing off the cab, which hasn’t progressed any since the last update. Douglas 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 (edited) Douglas, well done for solving your burner problem. So not wicks after all, but a needle valve issue. As this seems to be the Gauge 2 corner of RMweb, I thought that you and David might be interested in this page from the Editor's Mailbag in the Model Raiway News for January 1954. (Fortunately, my Father subscribed to every issue of MRN from 1950 to the late 1960s, so I have a nice stack of them to browse). As you can see from the letter from M W Griffiths and his accompanying photograph, there was at least one modeller working in Gauge 2 even in 1954, brave soul that he must have been! This is from that wonderful era when JNM was Editor and the magazine was full of articles on building your own 12V controller or the virtues of stud contact. Edited August 18 by John R Smith 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 19 Author Share Posted August 19 17 hours ago, John R Smith said: Douglas, well done for solving your burner problem. So not wicks after all, but a needle valve issue. As this seems to be the Gauge 2 corner of RMweb, I thought that you and David might be interested in this page from the Editor's Mailbag in the Model Raiway News for January 1954. (Fortunately, my Father subscribed to every issue of MRN from 1950 to the late 1960s, so I have a nice stack of them to browse). As you can see from the letter from M W Griffiths and his accompanying photograph, there was at least one modeller working in Gauge 2 even in 1954, brave soul that he must have been! This is from that wonderful era when JNM was Editor and the magazine was full of articles on building your own 12V controller or the virtues of stud contact. Thank you John that is very interesting, I wasn’t aware anyone was building anything in gauge 2 after 1930. I wonder if Mr Griffiths had a layout as well or if he just made models. I know in Jack Ray’s book about Crewchester he talks about going to see a giant Victorian LB&SCR layout that was supposedly so excellent it was going to live in the Kensington Science Museum but ended up being dismantled. Perhaps it was the same man? I will have to dig out Rays book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 19 Author Share Posted August 19 Another excellent Steam test was had today, this time it was watched by a friend who had heard about my engine and wished to see it. He is a scientist, and was very interested in how the fuel air mixture behaves in the firebox. He also brought up an interesting point. Being in the USA, I am obliged to run the engine on Denatured Alcohol (US name for methylated spirits) which has some additives. This didn’t exist before 1920, and he thinks that the engine would’ve originally burned 200 proof alcohol. Has anyone ever seen anything about what was in the older liquid fuels? In other news, the cab is now beginning to look much more like a cab. I hope to have it somewhat finished by this weekend. Douglas 6 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 (edited) Thanks so much for posting that, John! 18 hours ago, John R Smith said: As this seems to be the Gauge 2 corner of RMweb Actually it's Douglas's thread, so I do hope he doesn't mind these intermissions to the main event! The writer in your article mentions the model being left in an unfinished state 25 years ago, i.e. in about 1930. This is a common story, with many of my models coming to me in similar condition. Perhaps it's because by that time, there were few tracks left to run them on. I have several models that have clearly been 'finished' in modern times, as witnessed by the use of BA screws and a general disregard for any operability. I'm working on one of these just now, Greenly's little 0-6-0 tank which has come to me stripped of all fittings, plumbing, etc., although it clearly had worked at some time in the distant past. Here it is this morning, getting ready to test! The modern regulator is for convenience and adds a blower, which the loco never had. Only the water gauge is original. None of this involves altering the original apart from a few holes. When complete the loco will have chicken feed meths supply for Safety and meet modern ME standards. David Edited August 19 by Victorian 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 33 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said: Has anyone ever seen anything about what was in the older liquid fuels? That's an interesting question Douglas because I've never managed to get the Carson blowlamp in the Gauge 1 flash steam 'Experiment' to be completely self sustaining. Part of this may be the loss of asbestos in the boiler casing, but I suspect the fuel (said at the time to be meths) is different. Note no pilot light or pre-heating coil. Today this lamp works, but only by warming the nozzle with a gas torch! Fortunately this can be done in the loco without damaging anything. David 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 19 Author Share Posted August 19 9 hours ago, Victorian said: Actually it's Douglas's thread, so I do hope he doesn't mind these intermissions to the main event! Not at all! They are always very interesting. I wonder how well that engine ran without a blower. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 19 Author Share Posted August 19 9 hours ago, Victorian said: That's an interesting question Douglas because I've never managed to get the Carson blowlamp in the Gauge 1 flash steam 'Experiment' to be completely self sustaining. Part of this may be the loss of asbestos in the boiler casing, but I suspect the fuel (said at the time to be meths) is different. Note no pilot light or pre-heating coil. Today this lamp works, but only by warming the nozzle with a gas torch! Fortunately this can be done in the loco without damaging anything. David Not having a pilot for such a burner is odd. It certainly looks like an original burner though so it must be something to do with the fuel. Does it burn alright after being heated with a torch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 19 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said: I wonder how well that engine ran without a blower. This is the same chassis as my 0-6-0 tender engine, which does have a blower. That engine came as an unfinished kit of parts as well. The issue is not running, but stopping. As soon as the draft ceases, the fire flares up and escapes into the cab. This may be partly to do with the lack of asbestos wicks. The modern substitutes flop around and make it easier for the fire to escape. So the moment the engine stops, it's essential to have the blower on. That's how I've got through so many pressure gauges! The Carson Precursor has the stainless mesh wicks which reduce but doesn't eliminate the problem. It always had a blower. Back in the day they would open the smokebox door to ventilate the fire. I don't know how effective that was because I have a self contained electric blower and a 2Kg Co2 extinguisher to hand instead, which they didn't have. I'm not inclined to experiment too much when the model goes up in a sheet of flame! And in case you're wondering if the home made burners are the issue, Mr Jubb's Atlantic which is the only model that's come to me unmolested and with original burner, flares up just the same! Regarding the Carson lamp, this is the only original one that I know of and it matches the illustration in Model Engineer exactly. The back end has to be heated to get it going, but it can only do a few laps of the track before cooling. Jim Crebbin complained bitterly about people who would return the lamps with the fuel tank blown up like a balloon. I wonder why! The net result is that I have no idea how the Carson lamp worked, though we know that they did. LBSC commented about how the flash steamers were always worn out! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 19 Author Share Posted August 19 3 hours ago, Victorian said: Back in the day they would open the smokebox door to ventilate the fire. I don't know how effective that was I tried it twice before I got my electric blower, and it takes about 45 minutes to raise steam, so I would say it’s very ineffective. I think Jubb must’ve been something of a meths fired wizard seeing as his house survived the many years of having his engines running inside it. Are there any copies of Crebbin’s articles online? It would be interesting to read what he had to say about Carson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 Progress on the cab slowed a bit as I ended up in hospital very early Tuesday morning. I have a nut allergy and accidentally ate a walnut oatmeal raisin cookie in the dark. My immune system was less than pleased with this so after some debating it was off the ER for some steroids and an industrial grade antihistamine. I didn’t get to bed till about 2:30 am so very little got done on the engine the next day. However, I can say that the cab is now more or less finished. It is made in two sections. The spectacle plate and front side panels and semi permanently attached to the engine, and access to the controls is gained by lifting off the roof and rear spectacle plate. I tried to make it all one unit but alignment proved to be a major issue. I don’t think the bunker and the side tanks are perfectly in line with each other which is why I was having so much trouble. I was initially going to make the clerestory out of a solid piece of steel, profiled to shape on my 1949 Atlas metal shaper. I actually began to do this but soon discovered it wouldn’t work. Here is a picture of the steel piece getting squared up in the shaper. The current clerestory is simply riveted on using some spacers turned on the lathe. I may at some point cut out some small pieces of mahogany to put in the gaps between it and the main roof. The actual hole in the roof for the clerestory to draw air through has yet to be cut, and I'm not sure if I will do so as this will probably weaken the roof. Here are a few pictures. The next job is to turn the whistle! Douglas 3 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 The cab looks great, Douglas. I think that the idea of separating it into two components, one fixed and one removable, makes a lot of sense. Now you need the fore and aft wheelsets! Getting hold of cast iron spoked wheels to suit may well be tricky. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 It would appear that a 3'6" gauge 1 bogie wheel such as those sold by Walsall Model Industries might work to split the difference between 1/22.5 and 1/29? https://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/index.php/gauge_1_wheels-gauge_1_bogie-tender/?k=2119:6:: I don't know if the N25GA sell castings of bogie wheels smaller than 3' but if your Atlantic was closer to 1/22.5 then maybe that would work? On the other hand, I guess fabrication would be a period solution too! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said: It would appear that a 3'6" gauge 1 bogie wheel such as those sold by Walsall Model Industries might work to split the difference between 1/22.5 and 1/29? https://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/index.php/gauge_1_wheels-gauge_1_bogie-tender/?k=2119:6:: I don't know if the N25GA sell castings of bogie wheels smaller than 3' but if your Atlantic was closer to 1/22.5 then maybe that would work? On the other hand, I guess fabrication would be a period solution too! I had a look at those but I think they might be a bit too small. The full size was fitted with 3’6” leading wheels, but with Gauge 2 being larger than Gauge 1 I think they will be too small. At the moment I’m going to try 3’9” gauge 1 wheels (using a card template first) and see how that looks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 Here are the first “test discs” for the bogie wheels. Oddly enough they cut out from the remnants of the box for a 1960s FROG plastic kit for a Vickers Vimy. They are the same outer diameter as a Gauge 1 3’9” inch wheel, and they seem to fit fairly well masquerading as a Gauge 2 3’6” wheel. I’ll see what I can find in the Walsall catalog for the trialing wheel which is 4’. I think a 4’2” Gauge 1 wheel will work. Douglas 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 23 Author Share Posted August 23 After messing around with the wheel sizes for an hour the Walsall Model Engineering website died as per usual so I decided to find something else to do. I ended up taking the boiler off the frames to do battle with the nasty dent that was on the left hand side near the smokebox. This process will be covered in this weeks video, but I know a lot of people wished to see the inner boiler so here it is. It seems to be in very good condition for its age and hasn’t suffered any soft soldering at all. Douglas 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said: It seems to be in very good condition It does indeed! These boilers are very robust and this one seems to have survived the hacking about that so many of them have suffered. If you wanted to clean it up, a bath in Citric acid solution would work wonders. Note the similarity to this Bassett Lowke boiler I'm currently working on. This one had been entirely stripped of any fittings, except the water gauge. Regarding the wheels, I'll be happy to run a 3D design based on my 'Abergavenny' to Greenly G2 standards. These are typically 7.5 - 8mm wheel thickness which can be difficult to achieve with G1 castings. The big decision is on track radius since the bogie wheels have to clear the frames and cylinders. All BL models had shockingly undersize leading wheels. Only Carson stuck to scale (and 10' radius curves, which are even then tight). Even my Butcher Abergavenny, which is otherwise to scale, has small leading wheels. I'd be happy to run some 3D files for SLS Nylon once you've settled on this. You could then have these printed at very modest cost online. Nylon is very durable and quite suitable for G2 wheels, even on Steam models provided you avoid direct flame. Several of my steam models have dome covers in this material. You can print spares of course. This (electric) Bing / BL N1 tank in G2 has run with SLS Nylon trailing wheels for all it's modern life and no-one ever spots the 3D print, even when told to look for it! 3D metal printing is still in it's infancy and very chaotic, but we have had some success (at a price) with printing the same SLS designs in aluminium and Stainless. The trouble is vendors return different results (and unlimited quibbling!) every time. David 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 @Victorian that's a fantastic point really, I've done lots of printing for G1 'standard' freight stock wheels but not considered it at all for locomotives. That would certainly keep the cost down and, as you've said, you could design exactly what you want and get it printed in metal after some test prints in plastic. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Locomotive Works Posted August 27 Author Share Posted August 27 Hello all, It’s been a few days. Work has been happening, but it’s mostly successive test steamings so nothing really interesting has happened. Until tonight! Now when I took the boiler out of the cladding, I had to move the insulation along with it. And when it was reinstalled, I could see it had moved forward a little but I didn’t think anything of it. Steaming the engine proved that this seemed to be impeding airflow, and the engine could barely keep 20 psi on the gauge when normally it could manage 25. So this evening, I took the boiler back off the frames and adjusted the insulation a little. The results were incredible. The engine seems to have a Eureka moment, and started going like the proverbial stabbed rat. I have never, in my 8 years of live steam, seen an engine steam so well. It was sitting comfortably at 50 psi with the regulator barely open and the Safety blowing madly, and it seemed to be gaining pressure. This scared the daylights out of me, having never owned a high pressure engine before. So I loosened the safety valve, opened the regulate more and things calmed down somewhat. But then I got worried that perhaps I was going to boil all the water away, so I decided to shut the fuel off just to be safe. To my slight horror, nothing happened for a while (probably about 10 seconds, seemed like ages though) but eventually we started loosing steam and the run was over. Thankfully everything was fine and there was still plenty of water left in the boiler. My conclusion is that this engine will probably be a very good runner, it seems to go ant a similar pace to @Victorian’s Precursor. I’d say it might even be powerful enough to pull me on a raised track. I do have a one important question though. 1. what is the safe working pressure of these engines? Somewhere around 65 psi? I think the 1915 add that @sncf231e posted says 80 psi, but that seems oddly high. Here is a video from tonight’s run, when the gauge was till climbing. And as I don’t like to post things without pictures, here’s a nice side shot of the engine. You can see where the name formerly was. I intend to find some way of replacing this (and the lining) but I’m not sure what I would use. Suggestions encouraged! Im thinking some sort of transfers might be the best option, but I’m not sure if anyone sells LB&SCR transfers this large. Douglas 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted August 27 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 27 Bow pen/compass and paint? Straight lining use the bow-compass (with the steel point replaced with a bit of brass wire) and off-set from the edge of the tank sides, you can also follow the edge of a curve to off-set as well. Everything else with the bow pen. For the name you might need to trace what's there, and then chalk it back onto the side like real signwriting.... with a tiny brush... Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 5 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said: You can see where the name formerly was. I intend to find some way of replacing this (and the lining) but I’m not sure what I would use. Suggestions encouraged! If I may make a suggestion. It seems to me that renewing the lining and artwork for the name on the existing highly patinated surface would be a mistake, if that is what you intend. Either the original finish is kept in its current state of clean but heavily worn and patianated (which should include the remains of the original lining and lettering) - or, you should re-finish the whole of the locomotive in new enamel to include the artwork. That is just a personal view, of course, but mixing up old and new finish would seem to me to be a mistake. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sncf231e Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) 7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said: 1. what is the safe working pressure of these engines? Somewhere around 65 psi? I think the 1915 add that @sncf231e posted says 80 psi, but that seems oddly high. There is a Table of Suitable Steam Pressures in the Greenly book (page 60 in my version). Most of my (modern, well less than 50 year old) G1 locomotives run at about 60 psi like this one: Regards Fred Edited August 27 by sncf231e 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 The B-L ‘high pressure’ models appear to be 80 psi. As is the Carson. The models test easily to 160 psi hydraulic but the safety’s always need new seal washers. I use tiny O rings for this. For testing, my friends in G1MRA have found that central heating test pumps are available very cheaply on AliExpress and need only an adaptor making. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 Apologies for a further reply but regarding painting and lining my models use vinyl overlays which cover the original finish whilst preserving it. I have artwork for Abergavenny if you are interested. David 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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