Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge

[sncf231e]

Douglas,

 

If it is this Simon Goodyear you should be careful https://www.classicogauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29681#p29681.

 

Regards

Fred

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I have no specific interest in this locomotive or gauge, but I must say I'm finding the thread fascinating, especially from the historical aspect, and the associated engineering works.

If you google 'tank locomotive' guess what amazingly is the first image!

 

Mike.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Hello Douglas. It’s a small world (in Gauge2)! Simon and his brother Adam are very good friends to me. They were part of the group that help me set up the Gauge 2 layout at G1MRA’s 75th a-couple of years ago. Here they are at that auspicious event carrying out some of the first shunting moves on a Gauge2 layout since the British Empire Exhibition in 1908, Simon in green at left, Adam with Transmitter at right:

 

 

If Simon says he has a drawing, he probably does…..

 

David

 

 

 

Morning David,

 

What a splendid array! Shame I couldn’t have joined you all. Maybe one day the engine and I will be able to cross the pond again. 

 

7 hours ago, sncf231e said:

Douglas,

 

If it is this Simon Goodyear you should be careful https://www.classicogauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29681#p29681.

 

Regards

Fred

Thank you Fred that was an interesting if worrying read. I’m guessing I probably won’t find out if he has a drawing for a considerable time. Thankfully he didn’t want any money for it.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Evening all,

 

Some minor work was done on the engine today. This amounted to cleaning up the left hand side slide bars, which are difficult to remove due to the foot step being in the way, which is why I hadn’t done them earlier when the rest of the motion got cleaned.
 

 

These slide bars are somewhat crude but functional. They are threaded on the end and simply screw into the cylinder casting, and whoever the clever apprentice on the small assembly bench at Northampton was that built this engine filed the thread to the right length so that all the flats line up in the right position. Unusually though, they have to flex slightly to unscrew around the crosshead, and you can’t remove the crosshead without taking the bars off first. Very odd arrangement and almost seems like an afterthought.

 

The lower slide was in decent condition but the top one had some fairly bad rust and was also bent. How this managed to happen in its very snug little space I’ve got no idea.

 

I cleaned both of them up using a dull exact blade and some 800 grit sandpaper to get a nice shine. The upper bar needed a bit of work with the brass jaw pliers and a file to get it looking respectable again. Here they are back on the engine.

 

Douglas

[John R Smith]

 

Nice work, Douglas. And a tricky little job.

 

Something that is bothering me a bit, is that you have not as yet examined the inner Smithies boiler (which is what I assume it must be). Considering its age, my feeling was that you were a brave man to fire her up after just a pneumatic test (rather than a hydraulic one). Obviously, that is your judgement and not mine which counts, and so far all is well, but it makes me a trifle uneasy.

 

Otherwise, I have nothing but admiration for the work you have done so far.

 

 

[Victorian]

Douglas

 

That slide bar arrangement, common in B-L models, is very poor. The slide bars are often loose and in some of my engines have been silver soldered. Here's one I'm working on at the moment: (BL 0-6-0T, c. 1908, G2 of course)

 

 

The saving grace (If there is one! ) is that the slide bars do very little. Models of this period rely on the stiffness of the piston rod and were not built for the sort of heavy continuous running we enjoy today in Gauge 1. Also. they might not have been intended to be still running in the next Century!

 

The piston rod will unscrew from the crosshead to release it from the slidebars. Just don't grip the piston rod - remove the cover and use the piston for leverage with a collet if necessary.

 

John is of course correct about the inner boiler but these boilers were very heavily built as you can see here: (also from the 0-6-0)

 

 

They pass modern (UK) model engineering standards easily. The thing to watch out for is butchery and in the one above you see the steam pipe has been cut off for some unknown reason. I've had others where water tubes have been cut out and fittings soft soldered to the backhead! When you remove the boiler, pickle it in a strong solution of Citric acid which will show up any tampering. In the limit, these boilers can be cleaned sufficiently to reflow silver solder, even if soft solder has been used on them. (This has to scraped away meticulously)

 

David

 

PS just added to say these B-L models are a delight compared with the ones from Bing, which were not intended to be maintained. The 460 is giving me jip at the moment since the only way the access the steam chests is unsolder all the piping.

 

Edited August 12 by Victorian

[uax6]

Did OVS Bulleid have one of these locos I wonder? The arrangement of water tubes is very like his Thermic Syphons...

 

This is all fascinating stuff, for the likes of us that haven't been anywhere near these sorts of things...

 

Andy G

[Deeps]

5 hours ago, uax6 said:

This is all fascinating stuff, for the likes of us that haven't been anywhere near these sorts of things...

I fully agree, most interesting.

 

Just to clarify, for the uninitiated, what defines a ‘Smithies Boiler’?

[John R Smith]

 

Wikipedia is your best friend!

 

"Smithies boiler: A development of the pot boiler with added watertubes, used for model steam locomotives. The boiler was invented by F. Smithies in 1900 and developed by Greenly. It consists of a cylindrical water drum hidden inside a larger drum that forms the visible part of the model. Long slightly-sloping water-tubes are mounted beneath this water drum. The advantage of the boiler over similar model boilers is the use of almost the entire water drum surface for heating, although this also tends to scorch any paintwork on the outer drum, unless this is insulated.[53] In a later development by Greenly, the backhead of the boiler becomes a double-walled water space and straight water-tubes are led into this at an angle."

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 hours ago, Victorian said:

PS just added to say these B-L models are a delight compared with the ones from Bing, which were not intended to be maintained. The 460 is giving me jip at the moment since the only way the access the steam chests is unsolder all the piping.

I was thinking the same last night. I spent years, literally years chasing small issues on a Bassett Lowke Mogul (which is basically a Bing engine some would say even worse than Bing). This engine is far far nicer to work on.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, John R Smith said:

Something that is bothering me a bit, is that you have not as yet examined the inner Smithies boiler (which is what I assume it must be). Considering its age, my feeling was that you were a brave man to fire her up after just a pneumatic test (rather than a hydraulic one). Obviously, that is your judgement and not mine which counts, and so far all is well, but it makes me a trifle uneasy.

Hello John,

 

That is a very understandable viewpoint, and sometimes I think the same thing. The decision to go ahead and steam the engine was a one I didn’t make lightly. It was based on the knowledge that the boiler seemed very sound after visual inspection (I have taken it off the frames just haven’t posted the photos), and that it seemed to have never been messed with since it left the factory. BL smithies boilers are extremely overbuilt (David has tested his to 200 psi) so I decided to leave something to chance and steam the engine. Thankfully I was right, but that doesn’t always happen. I’ve had my fair share of boiler troubles with other engines, but those troubles helped to aid my judgement on this one.

[John R Smith]

5 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The decision to go ahead and steam the engine was a one I didn’t make lightly. It was based on the knowledge that the boiler seemed very sound after visual inspection

 

Douglas, I am sure that you are right. Nevertheless, I would not have been in the room there with you, coward that I am. I would have stood outside the door, round the corner, until the safety valve blew off!

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, John R Smith said:

 

Wikipedia is your best friend!

 

"Smithies boiler: A development of the pot boiler with added watertubes, used for model steam locomotives. The boiler was invented by F. Smithies in 1900 and developed by Greenly. It consists of a cylindrical water drum hidden inside a larger drum that forms the visible part of the model. Long slightly-sloping water-tubes are mounted beneath this water drum. The advantage of the boiler over similar model boilers is the use of almost the entire water drum surface for heating, although this also tends to scorch any paintwork on the outer drum, unless this is insulated.[53] In a later development by Greenly, the backhead of the boiler becomes a double-walled water space and straight water-tubes are led into this at an angle."

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Deeps said:

I fully agree, most interesting.

 

Just to clarify, for the uninitiated, what defines a ‘Smithies Boiler’?

Here is a bit of history on said boiler.

 

Fred Smithies was the proprietor of a dairy in Watford, around the turn of the century. He had a very keen interest in model locomotives, but was annoyed at how the flame always went out when steaming outside win windy conditions. To solve this, he endeavored to build an internally fired water tube boiler for miniature locomotives. This became the Smithies Boiler, around 1900.

 

 

Heres a photo of Fred Smithies visiting Willans Works (makers of high speed stationary steam engines, oddly enough Mr. William Willans great grandson of the founder is a good friend of mine) with the Society of Model Engineers in 1902. Fred Smithies is standing behind the small lad in the front row, Henry Greenly who probably designed my engine is to the viewers right with a hat on his shoe. Behind Greenly is Percival Marshall, founder of the Model Engineer Magazine and owner of the famed Locomotive Publishing Company. 
 

Here is a photo of one of the largest Smithies boilers ever made, built for Mr. George Essex’s 7-1/4 inch gauge locomotive “Little Bear” in 1912. It shows the double walled backhead that Wikipedia speaks of. This boiler still survives (though is not used anymore) as does Little Bear, who was restored to running condition after years in a barn by Simon Hudson of the Steam Workshop.

Mr. Smithies later effectively deserted his dairy business which he left to his wife, and began following Greenly and Bassett Lowke around Europe as a driver for Miniature Railways of Great Britain. He spent quite a bit of time as driver at Rhyl Miniature Railway in Marine Park, Rhyl.

 

I hope this was of interest!

 

Douglas

 

PS: I think the largest operable smithies boiler is owned by @sncf231e and it lives in his 3-1/4 inch gauge Bassett Lowke GNR Atlantic, but I could be wrong.

Edited August 12 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Afternoon all,

 

Two packages arrived today. One contained a 1932 copy of Henry Greenly’s “Model Steam Locomotives.” This was found on eBay in Washington and arrived very nicely gift wrapped! 
 

 

Having opened it, the contents were revealed. This should be a very interesting read and I’m looking forward to the chapter on making bogies.

 

 

The second package contained the Engineers Department wagon. This came from a collector in New Jersey who I nearly bought a wrecked Gauge 3 Carson LNWR Experiment from earlier this year. The wagon is very nicely constructed and met the approval of Station Master Mudge.

 

Here is the wagon loaded with a 1850s telescope by Chadburns of Liverpool. The ED requested it for the surveying of the line north into oblivion.

 

 

 

 

Mr. Mudge begins his inspection. He is a gauge 1 Britains figure that was repainted at some point.

 

 

 

And here is the wagon ready to be taken away by my battery electric gauge 2 Coupé Vent that I made in 2022.

 

 

And I shall end todays post with this b&w photo which if you excuse the fact that MSL wasn’t published till 1922, and a few other things, could have been taken in 1912 showing the desk of a gauge 2 modeler.

 

 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

21 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Afternoon all,

 ...snip...

Douglas

I like the old books. I, too, have a lot of them, mostly electrical-related. One exception is a few books on sewerage and sewage; the first is the infrastructure and the second the treatment of the contents. Both are loaded with many interesting photos (mid -920s) of the facilities and treatment methods.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I managed to finish off all the buffers today. The actual buffer components have been finished for a few days but they were just missing the springs. Making springs is not a terribly fun process so I was kind of putting it off, however last night I finally went and turned up a winding arbor in the lathe for the front springs, which are larger than the rear.

 

 

This arbor managed to get me one spring before it snapped off because, rather foolishly I forgot to use the tailstock to support it. Thankfully I only needed to make one spring in this size as I’d found another in my box of random bits. 
 

The second arbor needed to even smaller and I remembered to use the tailstock so I was able to make one long spring that could be cut in half for use in both buffers.

 

 

Here are the results, nice and springy even though you can’t see them.

 

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

After a few false starts I managed to mostly finish the spectacle plate for the cab today. This is made from 12 gauge brass plate, and mostly filed to shape. 
 

I started off by making a cardboard template, which is much cheaper to replace if i mess it up. This having been completed I transferred it all to brass and cut it out.

 

 

The cut out for the boiler was then chain drilled and the holes for the windows were made with a stepper drill.

 

 

At the end of today I ended up with this, more or lesser finished except for a bath in some acetone and some filing on the edges.

 

 

 

Most of the cab should be fairly easy to make, the only part that worries me is the clerestory roof. @Victorian I was wondering if you might be able to post some photos of how the roof is made on your Abergavenny(s)? I’m having trouble figuring it out.

thanks,

 

Douglas

 

[John R Smith]

 

A good start to the cab, Douglas. I assume that the cab roof will have to lift off, to gain access to the controls and gauges?

 

 

[Victorian]

Good morning Douglas. Here's the cab roof on the Greenly designed live steam version.

 

 

The Butcher engine doesn't have the ventilator. Greenly didn't appear to describe the cab roof in his articles, which were never completed. Here's the inside:

 

 

The ventilator (outside) is 2.35" long x 2.43" wide and stands 0.2" above the cab roof. Note the massive construction which makes this engine the heaviest of all the G2 models!

 

David

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Victorian

[John R Smith]

 

Ah, now I see - the whole of the cab lifts off, not just the roof. Which is why it is all missing on Douglas's Bessborough, it got separated from the engine sometime in the distant past. So why are the bogie and pony trucks missing, I wonder? (with those, they would have to be deliberately dismantled, you could not just casually lose them).

 

 

[Victorian]

John

 

I think the trucks may have been removed to get the engine round sharp curves. Missing trucks are a common problem in G2 models because the design radius may have been 10' and when the tracks disappeared during and after WW1 (The last known track was taken up in the 1980's) the only option might have been tinplate or Lowko track with 4' 6" radius at best.

 

On a different note, here's a cab view of the Greenly Abergavenny showing the strange aberration of no water gauge, but a (very useful) sight gauge on the meths tank!

 

 

 

Now .. where could I fit an electronic water gauge?

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John R Smith]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Missing trucks are a common problem in G2 models because the design radius may have been 10' and when the tracks disappeared during and after WW1 (The last known track was taken up in the 1980's) the only option might have been tinplate or Lowko track with 4' 6" radius at best.

 

So is this why we see the strange Gauge 2/1 aberrations, with a Gauge 2 wagon or coach body made to run on G1 track?

 

 

[Victorian]

38 minutes ago, John R Smith said:

 

So is this why we see the strange Gauge 2/1 aberrations, with a Gauge 2 wagon or coach body made to run on G1 track?

 

 

Absolutely. A lot of the remaining Gauge 2 stock was re-wheeled for Gauge 1 by Bassett Lowke after the Great War. Some of my stock has been re-converted to Gauge 2 simply by moving the wheels out by 1/4". Other models were fitted with G1 bogies by B-L and I've made replica (and reversible) Gauge 2 bogies for them in 3D nylon.

 

However, we must never forget that one reason that so much Gauge 2 equipment survives today, some of it in very good condition, is simply that many of the young men to whom it belonged never came home to play with it, or pass it on to their own children.

 

David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

23 hours ago, Victorian said:

Good morning Douglas. Here's the cab roof on the Greenly designed live steam version.

 

 

The Butcher engine doesn't have the ventilator. Greenly didn't appear to describe the cab roof in his articles, which were never completed. Here's the inside:

 

 

The ventilator (outside) is 2.35" long x 2.43" wide and stands 0.2" above the cab roof. Note the massive construction which makes this engine the heaviest of all the G2 models!

 

David

 

 

 

Good Morning David (it’s 1:26 am as I’m writing this, so just barely

morning)

 

Thank you very much for those photos, they will be very helpful. Knowing Greenly, I'm not very surprised he never finished those articles. 

 

22 hours ago, John R Smith said:

 

Ah, now I see - the whole of the cab lifts off, not just the roof. Which is why it is all missing on Douglas's Bessborough, it got separated from the engine sometime in the distant past. So why are the bogie and pony trucks missing, I wonder? (with those, they would have to be deliberately dismantled, you could not just casually lose them).

 

 

Yes it lifts off completely and was originally held in place with four legs that go into two holes drilled in the side tanks and two holes drilled in the bunker. I think I’ll do a similar arrangement on mine, though I’m also considering a hinged roof.

Edited August 17 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

A little bit more work got done on the cab today. I cut out the left hand side plate, which was then riveted to the spectacle plate. I decided to use rivets as that’s how the rest of the engine was built, using small copper rivets. I bought what appeared to be copper trim tacks to make into rivets at the local hardware store, but when I got home and started riveting I realized they were only copper plated! Oh well, can’t win them all. 
 

 

 

Five feet of ceramic rope also arrived today and I’ll try and do a steam test tomorrow to see how it fairs. Reminds me a bit of fuel trials on the GCR after the First World War when they were trialing oil firing. 
 

Douglas