Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge

[Victorian]

Gentlemen

 

I don't think we ought to hijack Douglas's thread with a discussion about conservation vs. restoration etc.. The engine is his, he alone saved it, and it's entirely up to him what he does with it.

 

Gauge 2 was lost, and without people like Douglas, it would be gone forever. Bravo Douglas!

 

David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

That’s a good point Fred but I’m sure it can be done sympathetically and it’s important to have a way to get water into the boiler in modern conditions,  especially if demonstrated in public. 

Correct. Safe operation of the engine comes before all things including originality, assuming one is restoring an engine to operating condition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I generally try to avoid looking at my engines as “historical artifacts” as I find it detracts from their appeal, and I don’t think any of the ones I own really count as such. Perhaps if a I owned something like a 4 3/4 inch gauge Stephenson salesman sample loco from the 1840s then things would be a lot different, as I do believe such a thing is a historical artifact that needs preserving. But this is an early 20th century model locomotive, of which there are probably a hundred or so kicking around on the planet, many with modifications. 
 

If we go to deeply into the morality of adding new parts, then we will eventually find ourselves in the Ship of Theseus discussion, which has been gone over many hundreds of times on RMweb with subjects like Flying Scotsman and the LSWR T3. I grew up in a family that restored classic cars, all of them European and all of them fairly unusual to find in Oklahoma. We never had anything crazy rare, but our friends did. I remember a 300 SL Gullwing was being restored down the street from us, and all steps were taken to insure perfect originality while making the vehicle safe and operable. However, they had the advantage of the Mercedes archives and historic parts bin, which I don’t with restoring this engine. Therefore, I am somewhat obliged to guess and assume at what may or may not be “original” on this locomotive. Until some form of documentation turns up detailing what it first looked like, it is my opinion that I have the freedom to do as I please within reason. For example, I should not paint the engine purple. But, I think it is perfectly fine if the engine is fitted with a Goodall valve or a modern clack valve from PM Research or Jubilee Fittings.  

Edited August 7 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

52 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

...snip...  it is my opinion that I have the freedom to do as I please within reason. For example, I should not paint the engine purple.  ...snip...

When you do, make sure that you letter it ATLANTIC COAST LINE and with silver highlights so that it would look proper when hauling "THE CHAMPION"!

[Victorian]

4 hours ago, John R Smith said:

David's "Abergavenny" above must have had a great deal of work to get it back into running order. It would be interesting to know which approach he chose to achieve his end goals?

John

 

I'll write up 'Abergavenny' in a separate thread. Thanks for asking!

 

David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

John

 

I'll write up 'Abergavenny' in a separate thread. Thanks for asking!

 

David

 

I also will look forward to reading it. Will Saint George be getting a thread?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

This evening I took the clack valve off the backhead to give it a once over. This included making a new valve seat out of bronze which was pressed inside the original fitting, and putting in a new ball. I also fitted a copper spring inside to help out the ball, the original one had rotted away.

 

Here I am turning the new seat:

 

 

Pressing home the seat:

 

 

The rebuilt valve in place on the backhead. The side tank or bunker must be removed for access. I chose the side tank, less screws.

 

 

The wagon we discussed earlier has also been purchased to run behind Bessborough. For those he didn’t see the link, here’s a picture. Managed to get it for $65, not too bad!

 

 

Douglas

[John R Smith]

12 hours ago, Victorian said:

I don't think we ought to hijack Douglas's thread with a discussion about conservation vs. restoration etc.. The engine is his, he alone saved it, and it's entirely up to him what he does with it.

 

I had absolutely no intention of hijacking this thread. As often happens, I rambled on a bit.

 

My apologies.

 

John

 

 

[Victorian]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The rebuilt valve in place on the backhead.

Since there's no visible piping, pump, or water tank I wonder why the clack is there? I have models similarly fitted. Maybe B-L boilers came with them fitted. Bing boilers have a blow down valve in this position. Anyway, it should be an ideal place to connect your Goodall valve!

 

Just in case you hadn't twigged it, 'ED' on the wagon stands for 'Engineers Department'. It's a ballast wagon. That's why it's got drop sides. I suspect that's going to come in useful!

 

David

 

[Victorian]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The side tank or bunker must be removed for access. I chose the side tank, less screws.

Douglas, while you've got those screws removed, could you check the size? On an English built model they are likely to be 3/32" Whitworth, 48 TPI. These are a much nicer screw than the 6BA that they are often opened out to because of the head form.

 

 

David

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by Victorian

[sncf231e]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Since there's no visible piping, pump, or water tank I wonder why the clack is there?

David

 

BL wanted you to buy this (from a BL catalogue):

 

It seems to be good practice to include a check valve on a model steam locomotive even if no axle/tender pump or injector is present to have the possibility to add this yourself (the simplest being to add a line side hand pump). Most ASTER live steam locomotives without a pump include already a check valve.

Regards

Fred

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, sncf231e said:

BL wanted you to buy this (from a BL catalogue):

Thanks for posting that Fred! Here's the same pump (1/8" version) on the footplate of the Bassett Lowke ? (Not Carson) Gauge 2 'Precursor'.

 

 

Personally I'd rather be using an Enots spray bottle any time! This engine is in the (long) queue of G2 models waiting for their turn on the track but is for a change almost complete - only the burner is missing. I can say it's not Carson because I have one and that's a scale model, whereas this is oversize and relatively crude. However it's also very, very chunky. Note the bent screw - It was a Jubb affliction not to have a drawbar, relying on the fuel pipe (!) so maybe that's a clue? Note also no blower - another Jubb trait. Opinions, anyone? 

 

Here it is:

 

 

I think it will be a strong runner in due course.

 

David

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by Victorian

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Since there's no visible piping, pump, or water tank I wonder why the clack is there? I have models similarly fitted. Maybe B-L boilers came with them fitted. Bing boilers have a blow down valve in this position. Anyway, it should be an ideal place to connect your Goodall valve!

 

Just in case you hadn't twigged it, 'ED' on the wagon stands for 'Engineers Department'. It's a ballast wagon. That's why it's got drop sides. I suspect that's going to come in useful!

 

David

 

I do know that about the Engineers Department, but I didn’t make the connection to what the ED means on my wagon. Thank you, make a lot more sense than the wagon be owned by Elder Dempster Lines.

 

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

Thanks for posting that Fred! Here's the same pump (1/8" version) on the footplate of the Bassett Lowke ? (Not Carson) Gauge 2 'Precursor'.

 

 

Personally I'd rather be using an Enots spray bottle any time! This engine is in the (long) queue of G2 models waiting for their turn on the track but is for a change almost complete - only the burner is missing. I can say it's not Carson because I have one and that's a scale model, whereas this is oversize and relatively crude. However it's also very, very chunky. Note the bent screw - It was a Jubb affliction not to have a drawbar, relying on the fuel pipe (!) so maybe that's a clue? Note also no blower - another Jubb trait. Opinions, anyone? 

 

Here it is:

 

 

I think it will be a strong runner in due course.

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

I would say it’s a Bassett Lowke model, seeing as it has a Lowke hand pump and the water gauge is identical to the one on my Abergavenny (which probably has a Lowke/Carson boiler). It looks to commercially made to have been built by an individual. Jubb is also an option but something doesn’t look right for it to be a Jubb.

 

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Douglas, while you've got those screws removed, could you check the size? On an English built model they are likely to be 3/32" Whitworth, 48 TPI. These are a much nicer screw than the 6BA that they are often opened out to because of the head form.

 

 

David

 

 

 

 

Mine definitely has 3/32 Whitworth screws! This means it is of English origin, which is one very small piece of the puzzle now in place.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Another excellent run was had this morning but I realized I’m having issues with “shrink and swell” in the water gauge. For those who don’t know what this is, it happens when the pressure and movement of water in the boiler gives a false low water reading on the water gauge. 
 

For example, when the regulator is opened, there is now a way for pressure to escape the boiler and the water level drops in the glass. Usually, when you close the regulator, the water should jump back up to normal or above but on mine doesn’t. It just stays very low, which is very worrying as it looks like the boiler is about to run dry. Is this normal for smithies engines? And if so is there a way around it or does one kind of just have to guess when the boiler will run out of water? After the run has finished and the boiler cools down, the water returns to normal (though slightly below the level before the run of course).

 

The traditional way around shrink and swell is to use tri cocks however this boiler is not really big enough for all three and access would be hopeless, so that solution is closed off.

 

Douglas

Edited August 8 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Victorian]

56 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Is this normal for smithies engines?

Yes, this is normal (if incorrect) behaviour. I think it's because of the small diameter tube that they used (about 4mm). This is difficult to source and one of the ME suppliers sent me their 'reject' glass which was too small for modern gauges! I've found the gauges to be virtually useless when running and rely on time instead. Just note that if the engine stops suddenly, rather than progressively, then its water and act accordingly.

 

With a water pump on board you can usually overpower the 'sticktion' or whatever it is than gives the false readings  but it's never truly reliable. Slightly bigger glasses (5-6 mm) on modern models behave quite differently. Interestingly, my Greenly designed 2" Gauge Abergavenny doesn't have a water Gauge, just a single try cock.

 

That's my theory. Perhaps someone knows better?

 

David

[John R Smith]

 

I seem to remember the same sorts of problems, with water gauges being totally useless. On the Bassett-Lowke O Gauge steamers (the Enterprise, Super Enterprise and Mogul) the spirit lamp capacity was calculated so that the meths would run out just before the boiler emptied - provided, of course, that you had filled the boiler to the correct level at start up. When our little engines had been modified to gas firing, of course this no longer applied. I think that as David says, a sudden stop is the danger sign. The other option is a try cock on the lower fitting of the gauge and blank off the top one. Then, as long as you have water and not steam on the try cock you are OK. But that is a real fiddle to use in the smaller scales.

 

Such problems were not unknown on the real railway. I remember my friend Ivor Trudgeon, the shunter at Drinnick, telling me about the time they were down the Retew branch with a 45xx and a coal train, and somehow got the engine off the road at a catch point. Miles from home, and with no help in sight, low on water, the footplate crew had to drop the fire in the four foot before they melted a fusible plug. Somebody would have been on the carpet at St Blazey next day . . .

 

 

[sncf231e]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

That's my theory. Perhaps someone knows better?

 

David

Indeed, the larger diameter of the glass used in modern gauge 1 locomotives makes a difference, but still one should always try to know the water level by estimating running time. On gauge 1 locomotives with an axle pump I also check regurlarly the level of water in the tender. One get used to be aware of the water level, but when I once tried to run two trains at the same time I fooled, causing some burnt packings but happily no other damage.. All this is of course easier with the larger scales. The 7.25 inch gauge locomotive I once had and drove a lot had 2 gauges.

Regards

Fred

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Another steam test was had, this one more successful but I am still being plagued by the wicks as I explain in tonight’s episode so I shall order some ceramic rope. This is very easily available here. 
 

Here’s a photo from one of today’s runs.

 

 

And here’s the link to Episode Three: an utter thriller, the engine even goes up and down some track! 
 

Here are the completed front buffers. Only the left hand side has the spring fitted right now.

 

 

Douglas

Edited August 9 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Victorian]

Congratulations Douglas! The first Gauge 2 live steam locomotive to run in America this century! Well done!

 

But …

 

Not quite the first 2” Gauge train to run in America in the 21st c. That hono(u)r might belong here:  https://www.tinplatetimes.com/Layouts/McFall C&F/russ.htm

 

Now you need some track. In the US you have an opportunity because the older Piko G scale track wasn’t UV resistant and the sleeper base disintegrates, leaving the heavy LGB section rail, ideal for Gauge 2. I know this from my visits to the Maricopa live steamers down in Phoenix, Arizona, where disintegrating track is commonplace.

 

The rail section is virtually identical to the vintage Bonds rail that I used for my outdoor track, clipped at the foot into hardwood sleepers (sorry ties) with stainless screws:

 

 

Making 2000 sleepers is not so bad, after the first month anyway, and these have been out for 4 years now. We’re not allowed genuine creosote now, and that may be a good thing because every third sleeper has burn marks from the procession of meths dribbling Gauge 2 steamers that have run on it. 
 

David

 

Edited August 9 by Victorian

[Florence Locomotive Works]

14 hours ago, Victorian said:

Congratulations Douglas! The first Gauge 2 live steam locomotive to run in America this century! Well done!

 

But …

 

Not quite the first 2” Gauge train to run in America in the 21st c. That hono(u)r might belong here:  https://www.tinplatetimes.com/Layouts/McFall C&F/russ.htm

 

Now you need some track. In the US you have an opportunity because the older Piko G scale track wasn’t UV resistant and the sleeper base disintegrates, leaving the heavy LGB section rail, ideal for Gauge 2. I know this from my visits to the Maricopa live steamers down in Phoenix, Arizona, where disintegrating track is commonplace.

 

The rail section is virtually identical to the vintage Bonds rail that I used for my outdoor track, clipped at the foot into hardwood sleepers (sorry ties) with stainless screws:

 

 

Making 2000 sleepers is not so bad, after the first month anyway, and these have been out for 4 years now. We’re not allowed genuine creosote now, and that may be a good thing because every third sleeper has burn marks from the procession of meths dribbling Gauge 2 steamers that have run on it. 
 

David

 

That is very interesting, I shall look into making some straight sections. How does one bend the radiuses though? And did you use pre dimensioned timber to make the sleepers (so that you only had to cut them to length)?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Not a huge amount got done today in terms of engineer, only the completion of the two rear moving buffer parts. The original stocks had survived so they didn’t need making.

 

 

The buffer beams as you can see have been painted red, and have yet to receiving my magic paint aging potion which will make them look 100 years old. The big news however is that the smokebox was painted today, and I think it looks much better. This being black paint it won’t be getting the potion, only some artificial paint chips if I feel like it.

 

 

The front buffer beam has already had the chipping treatment and I’ll put the aging mix on tomorrow.

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

@Victorian I noticed something very interesting today. I was rereading the article on your website about the Calcot Grange railway, and something jumped out at me. I was looking at the photo of the GNR 0-4-0 next to the horse box, and something about the HB looked oddly familiar. I then realized, that the under frame is identical to the one on the Engineers Department wagon I have just bought. 
 

 

 

Now it is entirely possible that these are just both made by the same maker (who we don’t know yet).

However, the most noticeable similarity is the brown solid wheels, which many of the Calcot Grange vehicles seem to be fitted with. The style of lettering is also oddly similar. The buffers and coupling hooks are all the same as well. Perhaps this is one of Lord Brabazon and Mr. Krabbe’s wagons? It seems somewhat likely.

[Victorian]

Good morning Douglas. That engine looks smarter every day!

 

The rails can be bent by hand. I printed a full size template including the sleeper positions and built each curve over that. I have noticed that the rails tend to re-straighten slightly over time though - possibly the hammering of those heavy G2 trains thundering round!

 

The wagons are almost certainly Winteringham for Bassett Lowke and the underframe components are standard fit. I don't have that cattle wagon but the little 0-4-0 is on the shelf beside me as I write. I don't know if came from Theale but my rake of GW 'Toplight' coaches certainly did, because they are mentioned in 'MR&L'.

 

 

This is the one that I chose to replicate in 3D printed Nylon. Both versions have a 3D printed nylon chassis , wheels, motion and gearbox with R/C, 385 motor and 3Ah Lipo power. Here's the replica, built to Greenly's drawing and so slightly taller than the surviving example:

 

 

If you'd like to add an R/C loco to your fleet, I can print one these for you! It's very useful for rescuing steam trains that have run out of puff!

 

David

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

21 hours ago, Victorian said:

Good morning Douglas. That engine looks smarter every day!

 

The rails can be bent by hand. I printed a full size template including the sleeper positions and built each curve over that. I have noticed that the rails tend to re-straighten slightly over time though - possibly the hammering of those heavy G2 trains thundering round!

 

The wagons are almost certainly Winteringham for Bassett Lowke and the underframe components are standard fit. I don't have that cattle wagon but the little 0-4-0 is on the shelf beside me as I write. I don't know if came from Theale but my rake of GW 'Toplight' coaches certainly did, because they are mentioned in 'MR&L'.

 

 

This is the one that I chose to replicate in 3D printed Nylon. Both versions have a 3D printed nylon chassis , wheels, motion and gearbox with R/C, 385 motor and 3Ah Lipo power. Here's the replica, built to Greenly's drawing and so slightly taller than the surviving example:

 

 

If you'd like to add an R/C loco to your fleet, I can print one these for you! It's very useful for rescuing steam trains that have run out of puff!

 

David

 

 

Thank you David. Just needs some LBSCR Pullmans run dutifully behind it.

 

That is good news that the rails can be bend by hand, I was thinking I would have to invest in a set of shell rollers to get a consistent bend across a decent length. Perhaps bending them in such a machine would take away the straightening problem?

 

Good to know that the wagon is a Winteringhams product, I have been after one of Mr.George’s wonderful wooden creations for a few years. 
 

The GNR 0-4-0 is a very charming loco, reminds me a lot of my Gauge 1 112 tank. I may take you up on the offer of a shunter when I get the layout built, but I will be moving house within the next year so that my not be for a while. The main goal right now is to make say, 100 feet of straight track to run the engine up and down on.
 

Also, I was contacted today by a man named Simon Goodyear, (he says he is another gauge 2 modeller, have you met him?) and he believes that my engine is a very early production Bassett Lowke offering, made using Carson designs and castings. He also said that he thinks he has the original drawings for it done by Greenly. I’m not sure if these are the same as the ones you sent me, or if Greenly in fact drew two Abergavennys! I await his response and will let everyone know what he says. To have copies of the original drawings for this engine would answer many questions.

 

Douglas

Edited August 11 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Absolutely nothing got done on the engine today, however yesterday it had a presentation steaming for a guest staying with us from Canada. Smiles were had all around. I always find it amazing how miniature locomotives can delight people who know nothing about them.

 

Sadly I was to busy running the engine to take any photos but I did get this post run shot up on my main workbench. Behind the engine is my 1880s machinist chest in which I keep the tools I’ve collected over the years to work on engines like this, most of them dating from before 1900.

 

 

The engine certainly looks much happier now. Before it seem to have a very sour and downtrodden look which appears it have gone away.

 

Douglas

[Victorian]

Hello Douglas. It’s a small world (in Gauge2)! Simon and his brother Adam are very good friends to me. They were part of the group that help me set up the Gauge 2 layout at G1MRA’s 75th a-couple of years ago. Here they are at that auspicious event carrying out some of the first shunting moves on a Gauge2 layout since the British Empire Exhibition in 1908, Simon in green at left, Adam with Transmitter at right:

 

 

If Simon says he has a drawing, he probably does…..

 

David