Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

The drip feed sump arrangements are especially dangerous and my Jubb Atlantic has been enveloped in flames more than once. How Mr Jubb ran this engine in the attic of his house in Sheffield (witnessed by Greenly in person) without burning the place to the ground escapes me!

 

Real men back in the day, AC mains 3 rail as well, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Mike.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

9 hours ago, sncf231e said:

Maybe there is a (gauge 1) live steam club in the area that you live? Most of the members of these clubs are stubborn whiners like me, but they always try to help.

Regards

Fred

I’m afraid not, gauge 1 live steam isn’t very popular in the mid west. There are a few clubs on the coasts but none around here.

6 hours ago, Victorian said:

Most of the gauge 2 models were designed to ‘light up’ with the smoke box door open. Electric fans were far in the future and the alternative was to have a footman blow into a rubber tube, or lie under the track blowing into the smoke box. 
 

Seriously you have to be very careful about flare ups with these early models. If the model stops without the blower, flames will quickly enter the cab and wreck the pressure gauge. The worst scenario is where the water runs out so no draft and no blower and everything very hot. This is a recipe for serious trouble. I use a Co2 ‘puffer’ with a quick blast down the chimney which instantly kills the fire for routine stops and always have a 2Kg Co2 extinguisher to hand.

 

The drip feed sump arrangements are especially dangerous and my Jubb Atlantic has been enveloped in flames more than once. How Mr Jubb ran this engine in the attic of his house in Sheffield (witnessed by Greenly in person) without burning the place to the ground escapes me!

David

 

 

 

 

I steamed the engine today with the original drip feed arrangement, and it worked oddly well. I was expecting meths pouring everywhere but none such upset occurred. There was a flare up at the end but this was due to user error and not the engines fault. I forgot to turn the blower on after stopping the engine to take it off the test track. 
 

 

Today runs was partially stationary and partially moving trials up and down this short length of gauge 2 track I made a few years ago. It went very well apart from the aforementioned flare up. Video of the engine moving will come soon.

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I’ve also purchased a 1930s copies of Henry Greenly’s “Model Steam Locomotives” which will hopefully aid me in making a new feed for the burner if I decide to do so.

[J. S. Bach]

18 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip...

Douglas

Very nice. When you finish with that, I have a Walthers O scale B&O solarium that needs some attention 😁:

 

From the business end you can see why I would like to get back in shape.

 

Posted with a load of on-line humor!

 

 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Today’s escapade was the making of a needle valve for the fuel tank. The flapper thing it was fitted with before was just too scary to keep using. However, interestingly it appears that the engine was at one time fitted with a needle valve as there were pre drilled holes in the fuel tank which I made good use of today. They had been covered up with soldered on brass patches.

 

Heres the basic design I sketched out very quickly as I didn’t feel like getting out the drafting set. Once that had all downloaded into my brain it was over to the 1905 Rivett lathe to turn everything.

 

 

 

The needle started off as being made from drill rod (silver steel for UK readers) but I messed that one up so remade it from 12L14 steel. The nut at the top is made from Bronze to match everything else on the engine and is threaded 1/4-20. The valve seat on the bottom of the tank is made from brass, with a bronze insert pressed in as I didn’t have a piece of bronze large enough in diameter to fill the existing hole. 
 

Here’s the needle and nut against the drawing.

 

 

The whole in the middle of the bunker is also very suspicious. Located beneath it I found a brass patch with a hole drilled underneath it in perfect alignment with the outlet in the base of the tank. 
 

Here’s what the flapper looked like before, and here the after showing the bottom if the valve seat.

 

 

 

And here is the top the needle where it comes through the top of the bunker. Looks very fitting in my opinion, works a treat as well.

 

 

 

Douglas

 

[Lacathedrale]

What a magnificent thread and a favourite engine of mine to boot. Thank you, @Florence Locomotive Works

[Victorian]

18 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

On 04/08/2024 at 09:39, sncf231e said:

Maybe there is a (gauge 1) live steam club in the area that you live? Most of the members of these clubs are stubborn whiners like me, but they always try to help.

Regards

Fred

I’m afraid not, gauge 1 live steam isn’t very popular in the mid west. There are a few clubs on the coasts but none around here.

Douglas, G1MRA does have a Mid-West Group organised by Ernie Noa (I’ll supply details by email) which may be of interest.  G1MRA is the adoptive home of Gauge 2 since it was orphaned all those years ago!
 

David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

The first test steaming of the new needle valve arrangement was today, and it produced satisfactory results aided by the acquisition of an old hair dryer to act as a stop gap blower. Using said hairdryer steam can be raised in under 10 minutes, which is startlingly fast. However, the temperatures in the firebox are getting to the point where the center draft oil lamp wicks I’ve been using are now burning along with the meths, rather than just burning the meths. I think this problem will be solved by the acquisition of some fiberglass wicks from Accucraft/Aster, but if anyone else has other solutions please do say.

 

 

As you can see, the engines appearence has altered somewhat. I decided to remove what was left of the severely burned boiler barrel paint, and expose the wonderful blue Russian iron. The next step was to polish the boiler bands. I think it looks very nice in this heavily patinated form, and it will be staying like that until I decide to paint it. The smokebox and buffer beams will be getting painted though. I’m currently making new buffers all around from bronze with steel heads.

 

 

 

After today’s test steaming I decided to “recalibrate” the pressure gauge. I trained as a watch and clockmaker so this was familiar stuff, and I’ve also rebuilt a few full size Schaeffer & Budenberg gauges so had a decent idea of what the issue was.
 

Said issue here was that the needle had been moved on its arbor to the right at some point, meaning that when the gauge was at zero, the needle was reading 23 psi. Not good. So I removed the dial, and very gently moved the needle back to where it was just off the table stop on the left. Now it should read the correct pressure. The glass was also replaced with modern glass.

 

 

Here it is reassembled and back on the engine.

 

 

Douglas

 

PS: is $85 overpriced for a gauge 2 wagon? There’s a wooden (probably Winteringhams) gauge 2 wagon eBay right now and they want $85 for it. Methinks that a little steep but it may be a fair price.

[John R Smith]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

PS: is $85 overpriced for a gauge 2 wagon? There’s a wooden (probably Winteringhams) gauge 2 wagon eBay right now and they want $85 for it. Methinks that a little steep but it may be a fair price.

 

I think that in Gauge 2 the price is whatever a buyer is prepared to pay. The same in vintage Gauge 1, really. Even in O Gauge, you could easily pay $85 for a desirable Bassett-Lowke wagon, especially in wood rather than tinplate. Collectors drive these markets, and the things that cost the most often seem illogical to ordinary folks like you and I, who just want to run some trains.

 

The engine is looking very nice with its polished boiler bands! The plan for its future conservation will be interesting to follow - to paint or not to paint? As far as your problem with wicks goes, back in the day we always used asbestos string but of course nowadays asbestos in no longer acceptable on health grounds. My father and his best mate Graham got so frustrated with meths firing that they designed and built gas-fired alternatives (using lighter fuel) for the B-L Enterprises we had at the club. The gas tank went in the tender, with a flexible hose connection to the replacement burner. Eventually, after much experimenting and development, it worked very well.

 

Well done fixing the pressure gauge!

 

John

 

 

[Victorian]

Hello

 

Do get a good quality photo of the dial on that pressure gauge since the flames will get to it eventually!

 

So far as the G2 Wagon goes, I have paid this kind of money for good examples. Wooden ones are far nicer than the tinplate. Maybe you could send me a link? Most of mine (I can make up a 60 wagon train) came from auction lots at affordable prices.

 

 

On eBay they are pitched very high -  (This chap can't even spell 'Carette' and is very hopeful).

 

 

Regarding wicks, I've used stainless mesh and ceramic rope. The mesh (about 100 wires / inch) is completely stable and helps reduce flaring in narrow or short fireboxes by not spilling the flame. The ceramic rope gives a broader flame with more power if the firebox allows it. It's sold for insulating stoves but you will probably need to get it from a Chinese vendor (Aliexpress) since stuff sold here tends not to be ceramic at all!

 

David

 

 

Edited August 6 by Victorian
duplicated picture

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 04/08/2024 at 12:13, Victorian said:

...have a footman blow into a rubber tube, or lie under the track blowing into the smoke box...

This accords with the reminiscence of the one former footman I have known, who had taken a severe kicking while bringing a malfunctioning horse under control. "We did everything necessary for the enjoyment of life,  health and happiness of the family." The duty described  above probably rather less hazrdous than moving the archery target so that the young ladies actually obtained a hit.

 

[SR71]

@Victorian OP Should be able to get Ceramic Fibre in the US. In Europe it is classed as carcinogenic and can't be sold. I believe what we get is AES (alkaline earth silicate).

 

Whether that changes in the UK now is to be seen. Manufactory plants over this way are set up to supply the European market of course.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

5 hours ago, Victorian said:

Hello

 

Do get a good quality photo of the dial on that pressure gauge since the flames will get to it eventually!

 

So far as the G2 Wagon goes, I have paid this kind of money for good examples. Wooden ones are far nicer than the tinplate. Maybe you could send me a link? Most of mine (I can make up a 60 wagon train) came from auction lots at affordable prices.

 

 

On eBay they are pitched very high -  (This chap can't even spell 'Carette' and is very hopeful).

 

 

Regarding wicks, I've used stainless mesh and ceramic rope. The mesh (about 100 wires / inch) is completely stable and helps reduce flaring in narrow or short fireboxes by not spilling the flame. The ceramic rope gives a broader flame with more power if the firebox allows it. It's sold for insulating stoves but you will probably need to get it from a Chinese vendor (Aliexpress) since stuff sold here tends not to be ceramic at all!

 

David

 

 

I think my gauge is a later model as the dial is made from a piece of steel that has been painted. There are no signs of nitrate unless the white paint is nitrate.

 

 

Heres the link to the wagon. It’s the only G2 I can find on eBay, I guess the ones you posted don’t ship to America so won’t show up in my end. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/296573845734?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=5YPeEE_pSuq&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=y5b8_T8ZRLe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

I shall look at both those wick options.

 

thanks,

 

Douglas

[John R Smith]

9 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Heres the link to the wagon. It’s the only G2 I can find on eBay, I guess the ones you posted don’t ship to America so won’t show up in my end. 

 

It looks like a nice dropside wagon to me, very British in style. You aren't going to find many of these around, so if it was me I would grab it! (It's about £67 GBP at current exchange rates, and I have paid that for an O Gauge tinplate wagon).

 

 

[Victorian]

That wagon's very nice! Go for it! Good luck, David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well I tried firing the engine today using lamp wicks and had very good results. It seems I was being to timid with the fuel and it wasn’t flowing all the way down to the third row. 
 

The addition of the blower has also helped a lot, however the boiler does make some rather disturbing clunking noises when raising steam. Is this normal? I’ve heard them before in other engines but never this loud. 
 

Here is  a photo of today’s run.

 

 

I’ll see if funds can be spared to buy that wagon. As I currently don’t have any real track I’m not sure now is the time to be buying rolling stock. I’m also considering adding a Goodall valve where the clack valve currently is. Is that a good idea or will the water injected via a spray bottle thermally shock the boiler too much?

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Here is a short video of today’s test run. The audio has been messed with a bit by YouTube, the engine sounds much smoother in person.

 

 

[sncf231e]

19 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I’m also considering adding a Goodall valve where the clack valve currently is. Is that a good idea or will the water injected via a spray bottle thermally shock the boiler too much?

 

Douglas

A Goodall valve 😝😭 Why not make a simple line side handpump feeding via the clack valve. A Goodall valve with a spray bottle is for the lazy live steam guys running in general ugly locomotives.

Regards

Fred

[Victorian]

Well done Douglas. You have the first Abergavenny in Gauge 2 to steam this century! (Everything's a first in Gauge 2).

 

The clunking noises are not unusual. I don't know what causes them but possibly flash boiling in the water tubes?

 

I have a Goodall valve on the Carson Precedent. (on the tender though). These boilers were very robustly built and the cold water is not going to do any harm. By the way, I don't know if you've separated the inner boiler from the shell, but I'd be very interested to see a photo of it when you do.

 

Today's been a record on this side of the pond as well. The Bing / B-L '460' finally ran. This has been a frustrating experience, trashing the paintwork on a nicely restored model along the way back to steam. There was, and is, so much wrong with it!! Nevertheless, here is a '460' running under it's own power for the first time in the 21st Century:

 

'460' runs for the first time this century

 

Regarding the wagon, I'll go for it and cough up the shipping if you decide against it. Let me know.

 

David

 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 hours ago, sncf231e said:

A Goodall valve 😝😭 Why not make a simple line side handpump feeding via the clack valve. A Goodall valve with a spray bottle is for the lazy live steam guys running in general ugly locomotives.

Regards

Fred

Well the main issue with that is the fact that I don’t have a line to put my hand pump beside, I also don’t really like hand pumps unless they are fully submerged in a tender. A spray bottle does the same as a hand pump, either way water gets in the boiler.

 

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Well done Douglas. You have the first Abergavenny in Gauge 2 to steam this century! (Everything's a first in Gauge 2).

 

The clunking noises are not unusual. I don't know what causes them but possibly flash boiling in the water tubes?

 

I have a Goodall valve on the Carson Precedent. (on the tender though). These boilers were very robustly built and the cold water is not going to do any harm. By the way, I don't know if you've separated the inner boiler from the shell, but I'd be very interested to see a photo of it when you do.

 

Today's been a record on this side of the pond as well. The Bing / B-L '460' finally ran. This has been a frustrating experience, trashing the paintwork on a nicely restored model along the way back to steam. There was, and is, so much wrong with it!! Nevertheless, here is a '460' running under it's own power for the first time in the 21st Century:

 

'460' runs for the first time this century

 

Regarding the wagon, I'll go for it and cough up the shipping if you decide against it. Let me know.

 

David

 

 

 

Thank you David. I was worried that those clunking noises might be something structural giving way but flash boiling seems much more likely. I have yet to take the cladding off the boiler, but when I do I will send you some photos and post them here.

 

Very glad to hear of your 460 getting underway. I’ll send that video to our new recruit down in Australia to give him a bit of motivation to get his Caley 460 up and running. 
 

I think I will be buying that wagon after all. I’ll let you have the next one!

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

After the successful steam up I spent the rest of the day cleaning up the right hand side wheels and motion which I had only gotten halfway through doing before I got distracted by steam testing. I also finally remembered to sand all the nasty rust, dirt, congealed oil and soot off the axles. Here are the results. They appear to be wrought iron judging by the grain pattern.

 

 

I hadn’t yet cleaned the middle axle in that photo.

 

Having concluded that I turned my attention to remaking the damaged safety valve tensioner. This is a threaded nut that adjusts to the tension in the spring inside the valve, and although the original was functional it was broken in places and not very nice looking. So I made a new one from bronze and filed in the some wrench flats, which then had appropriate chamfers out on them. 
 

 

The next job is getting drawings for the front and rear bogies. I’m not sure whether to copy these from the GA drawing in the HMRS archive or whether to use the Greenly drawings that @Victorian kindly sent me. The trailing truck has to fit around the burner supply tubes so will probably need to be my own design, but I think the front one can be kept as accurate as possible. Food for thought.

 

The cab I have decided will be made from brass, as I don’t have a source for Russian iron and creating blued spring steel in this quantity is possible but it is a difficult and tedious operation. I’ll construct it in the same way as the bunker and side tanks, using brass angle and 3-48 countersunk machine screws which I’ll probably have to order from some obscure place. 
 

Brass angle is often not at produced at perfect right angles but I can square it up on my 1950 Atlas shaper which I got last month.

 

 

Douglas

Edited August 7 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Victorian]

Good progress Douglas!

 

Do consider using Whitworth screws in your restoration. British company EKP https://ekpsupplies.com/ (No connection - I'm just a customer) do produce some of the sizes. For instance, they have made the 3/32 Whit csk screws. See eBay 333469981374. Whitworth taps and dies are still available on eBay. I know it sounds a bit nerdy, but I regret the places where I opened out to BA sizes now.

 

Regarding the missing parts, you can see the leading and trailing trucks in this picture of the Butcher 'Abergavenny' as it came to me. I can send more pics if you'd like. Nowadays I design these parts in 3D and print them in SLS Nylon (even on steam models!) or just the hot topic at the moment, aluminium.

 

 

David

[sncf231e]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

A spray bottle does the same as a hand pump, either way water gets in the boiler.

 

 

This is not about the spray bottle, but about mounting a (metric?) Goodall valve into the boiler. You will not find these described in Henry Greenly’s “Model Steam Locomotives”. I saw you changed the title of the thread to "Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge". I myself do not think that adding a 1980 invention (Goodall valve) can be called restoring. It is more "Making run".

Regards

Fred

[Victorian]

15 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

This is not about the spray bottle, but about mounting a (metric?) Goodall valve into the boiler. You will not find these described in Henry Greenly’s “Model Steam Locomotives”. I saw you changed the title of the thread to "Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge". I myself do not think that adding a 1980 invention (Goodall valve) can be called restoring. It is more "Making run".

Regards

Fred

That’s a good point Fred but I’m sure it can be done sympathetically and it’s important to have a way to get water into the boiler in modern conditions,  especially if demonstrated in public. 
 

Most of my models have at least some modern boiler mountings, burners or fuel tanks because the originals were lost in antiquity. (Well, before the war, anyway.) Sometimes they have been made to look like the original but in other cases there’s no pattern to follow.

 

A Gooodall valve can normally be tapped into an existing blackhead fitting anyway since many of these engines had a blowdown valve in the days before distilled water was available easily.

 

Regards, David

 

[John R Smith]

 

This discussion is now getting into an interesting area. I have been involved in a great many restoration projects, both of my own interests (guitars, cameras, classic motorbikes and bicycles) and professionally (historic buildings).

 

It seems to me that there are broadly speaking three approaches to this sort of project, which could equally be applied to Douglas's engine -

• Conservation. The cleaning and preservation of the object, while retaining as much as possible of the original finish and patina. No reconstruction of missing parts, no re-finishing. Museum display quality.
• Refurbishment. As above, but including repair and replacement of worn or missing mechanical parts to bring back to working order. Preservation of the original finish, but removal of all corrosion and replacement of badly worn decals.
• Restoration. Complete mechanical overhaul and rebuild to as new condition. Removal of exisiting finish and treatment of corrosion, refinish of all paintwork to original specification and re-chrome of plated parts.

Fred's objection to the use of the Goodall valve is a perfectly valid one if the object is to conserve the loco as an historical artefact for the benefit of future generations. But as David says, these engines have by now been modified by several generations of owners and very few are in their original condition anyway. My father and the gang at the Club in the old days had absolutely no qualms about modifying and adding bits and bobs to our B-L Enterprises and the Bowman. By the end they bore little resemblance to the original engines, but they certainly went a lot better (ie faster for longer!) Now I suppose we should decry such vandalism, but back then it was all good fun. So, perhaps if the owner of a Carson or whatever decides to fit a better burner, or an injector, or a different lubricator then good luck to them and I am sure that Greenly or "Curly" would approve of such engineering progress.

 

However, you could equally argue that a Carson 4-4-2 in Gauge 2 is now so rare (and important) that Douglas (who is now the custodian of this artefact) has a duty to the future to conserve, or refurbish, or restore it to the highest possible standard, in as near original condition as possible. This is said with my historian and conservationist hat on, of course. I have to admit that I am usually in two minds myself on many of these issues. In recent years I have tended to search out the middle ground with my classic bicycles, and go for refurbishment while keeping the original finish intact. But if the chainrings are knackered, they go in the bin and new ones are fitted! And I suppose that I have been following much the same approach with my vintage O Gauge collection.

 

David's "Abergavenny" above must have had a great deal of work to get it back into running order. It would be interesting to know which approach he chose to achieve his end goals?