Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge

[Victorian]

John

 

As Douglas says, ‘Russia Iron’ was widely used on the cladding of early American locomotives. It actually was imported from Sweden (Russia then) and was the only type of thin sheet metal available at the time. ( we were still cladding in wood covered in canvas).

 

The sheets were formed by constantly hammering laminations of iron (not steel of course) in a bath of oil until it formed a laminated structure about 1/16” thick that had amazing corrosion resistance. It also had the blue colour that you can see in Douglas’s photos.

 

David

 

[micklner]

2 hours ago, sncf231e said:

From the Bassett Lowke 1915 catalogue:

Regards

Fred

£1640.00 in todays prices.

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, micklner said:

£1640.00 in todays prices.

Cheap, in effect. I paid a similar sum a couple of years ago for someone to build and paint a 4mm loco kit. 

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

Was cast ali available in 1912?  Also would it be easier and quicker to bead blast the corrosion away?

Cast aluminium was used in Carson’s Gauge1 ‘Experiment’, and also by BL in the pannier tank castings for Greenly’s GN 0-4-0 tank in G2. However the material seems heavier than todays cast Aluminium.

 

Regarding the rust, Phosphoric acid followed by gentle wire brushing might be best. It won’t be possible to separate the wheels from the frames without risking the castings, so I’d recommend an acid dip followed by Dremel type tools.

[John R Smith]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

It actually was imported from Sweden (Russia then) and was the only type of thin sheet metal available at the time. ( we were still cladding in wood covered in canvas).

 

The sheets were formed by constantly hammering laminations of iron (not steel of course) in a bath of oil until it formed a laminated structure about 1/16” thick that had amazing corrosion resistance.

 

Many thanks for the explanation. So it was actually Swedish Iron, which makes sense because metal working has long been a core part of Swedish industry and exports. The method of manufacture sounds as if it had parallels with Japanese sword making, and is of course a form of wrought iron which is malleable (where cast iron is not).

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

6 hours ago, sncf231e said:

From the Bassett Lowke 1915 catalogue:

Regards

Fred

 

Thank you for that Fred, it has a striking resemblance to my model.

 

6 hours ago, Victorian said:

Douglas

 

Congratulations and welcome to the wonderful world of Gauge2! My own ‘Abergavenny’ (C Butcher & Co, c. 1911) is here as I write this to welcome the new arrival:

 

 

I’ve watched the fascinating video, thanks. Here are some thoughts:

 

Russia iron is virtually unknown here in UK. I’m fortunate even to have a small sample of it, given to me by the Director of one of your Railway museums. I have to agree that the material shown in your picture does indeed look like Russia iron. To my mind, this points strongly to a U.S. origin for your model.

 

 

 

 

Abergavenny is looking rather splendid in the sun!

 

Russian Iron isn't quite that unknown. In contemporary UK railway literature I have often seen Russian Iron referred to as "planished iron" which is exactly what the frames are specified to made from in the advertisement that Fred posted above. And on my engine, the frames are indeed planished iron,

 

5 hours ago, Victorian said:

Continued: (iPad doesn’t play nicely with RMWeb!)

 

Are the screw threads Whitworth, as in English models of this period?

 

Is there an oiler? I can see an oil pipe leading forward. The piston packing was often cotton and may be rotten. Anyway, it needs oil.

 

There probably isn’t asbestos under the cladding. These boilers needed free flow around the inner barrel, although a sheet of ceramic paper across the crown can preserve the paint.

 

Did you replace the Gauge glass? The diameters used can be hard to source.

 

It’s great to see a model of this period that hasn’t been trashed by a century of meddling, or even worse, ‘restoration’. To see it run on air like that is remarkable! The reason that the carrying wheels are missing may be that a previous owner had tight curves. ‘Abergavenny’ needs 10’ radius.

 

SNCF, thanks so much for showing that 1915 page. I hadn’t seen that before, and it appears to show my other ‘Abergavenny’ which is built to Greenly’s drawings.

 

Well done Douglas!

 

 

I have yet to measure the threads, but the head of the bolts do not fit standard american size small spanners which makes me think they are UK sizes. Most the model is held together with cheesehead bolts which is both good and bad.

 

Yes, that is an oiler on the pipe leading forward. It comes through the plate right in front of the smokebox, similar to a gauge 3 Carson Experiment. I filled it up three times or so till i got oil coming out of the exhaust. Unusually, the packing seems to be in good condition. 

 

I have yet to replace the gauge glass. 

 

5 hours ago, John R Smith said:

 

The name "Russia (or Russian) Iron" is a bit puzzling If it was a sheet material, it was more likely to be a form of steel, rather than iron, surely. The Wikipedia entry does not shed much light in this regard, either.

 

There was much debate back in the 1950s about the exact nature of the black paint used on L&NWR locomotives, which was described at the time as "blackberry black". It makes you wonder if their boiler cladding was a bit special, too?

 

 

 

Russian iron was first developed in the 1840s by a group of ironmongers on the western side the Ural Mountains (production later spread to Sweden and other parts of Russia). It was created to provide a material for farmers huts that wouldn't rot away in the harsh Russian winter. The process uses a "cheese" of about 8 wrought iron sheets pre rolled to about 1/2 in thick. These sheets are stacked on top of the other with raw carbon sprinkled in between. They are then heated to cherry red and smashed under a steam hammer, before being quenched in the local natural spring water. This process is repeated until he sheets are about 1/16 of an inch thick.

 

The quenching in spring water is what generations of engineers have credited the blue color to, it is believed to be a reaction between the minerals in the Russian spring water and the surface of the iron. This belief is helped by the fact that the Russian Iron produced in Pennsylvania during the 1890s does not have the same hue of blue. The process of making this iron was a very closely guarded secret, and it took American ironmasters years of industrial espionage and trial and error before they got a successful product. During the second half the 19th century, Russian Iron was one of Russia's biggest export products and was  seen as something of a national symbol. English ironmasters seemed happy to import it from Russia, and never made a large attempt at making it at home. It was usually called "planished iron" in English engineering literature. 

 

Today, Russian iron is something of a lost art, as the process of its making is still not fully known, even in its day it was considered something of a miracle material that wasn't fully understood. The secret of Russian Iron is the blue never leaves, regardless of how much the sheet is bent or flexed. There are thought to be two people left in the west who know how to make it. I've actually tried making it, and I was able to get a blue color to my iron but it would flake off as oxidization. I'm lucky enough to know blacksmith Matthew Ricchezza, who has had some success in creating it in small quantity.

 

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

Cast aluminium was used in Carson’s Gauge1 ‘Experiment’, and also by BL in the pannier tank castings for Greenly’s GN 0-4-0 tank in G2. However the material seems heavier than todays cast Aluminium.

 

Regarding the rust, Phosphoric acid followed by gentle wire brushing might be best. It won’t be possible to separate the wheels from the frames without risking the castings, so I’d recommend an acid dip followed by Dremel type tools.

 

Yes I think that sounds like a good strategy.

Edited August 2 by Florence Locomotive Works

[John R Smith]

50 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The process uses a "cheese" of about 8 wrought iron sheets pre rolled to about 1/2 in thick. These sheets are stacked on top of the other with raw carbon sprinkled in between.

 

Yes, so what you are doing here is converting the malleable wrought iron into a form of steel, by adding carbon to it. As Wikipedia concisely states - "Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon with improved strength and fracture resistance compared to other forms of iron." That is how you end up with thin sheets of material which can be bent into complex shapes.

 

 

[Victorian]

Regarding the screw threads, the cheese head screws are likely to be 3/32” Whitworth. These no longer exist and I had a quantity made, so let me know if you need some.

 

it occurs to me that one difference between your engine and the Greenly design is that you have a water gauge.  Bizarrely, Greenly saw fit to omit this detail, providing a try cock with a drain under the cab floor instead. Maybe he thought the Gauge was too hard to see inside the closed cab. My model follows the design exactly and in this age of electronic level sensors, I might do that instead!
 

 

Regarding the Russia Iron, one reason that the Bury engine is called ‘Coppernob’ is that they didn’t have sheet iron to to clothe the firebox, and had to use copper instead! I was not aware of the definition of ‘planished iron’  - very interesting.

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Victorian said:

Regarding the screw threads, the cheese head screws are likely to be 3/32” Whitworth. These no longer exist and I had a quantity made, so let me know if you need some.

 

it occurs to me that one difference between your engine and the Greenly design is that you have a water gauge.  Bizarrely, Greenly saw fit to omit this detail, providing a try cock with a drain under the cab floor instead. Maybe he thought the Gauge was too hard to see inside the closed cab. My model follows the design exactly and in this age of electronic level sensors, I might do that instead!
 

 

Regarding the Russia Iron, one reason that the Bury engine is called ‘Coppernob’ is that they didn’t have sheet iron to to clothe the firebox, and had to use copper instead! I was not aware of the definition of ‘planished iron’  - very interesting.

 

I may take you up on that offer, we’ll see how many of the little heads snap off first. So far none have. 
 

That is a rather a bold move from Greenly, I think mine had a lift off cab so that may be why it has a water gauge. 
 

A few of the early large gauge European engines have Russian Iron boilers. They are often listed in catalogues as having been finished with “Planished iron.”

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Today was once again spent scraping, sanding and filing away rust from the clutches of the engine. All three left hand driving wheels have now been cleaned, and all the backhead fittings are polished along with much of the backhead casting. Here are a few photos. Episode two of the YouTube series will probably be coming out Sunday.

 

The big event today though was the taking of the boiler off the frames. This was a very fiddly process as I have to undo the two very rusty 3/32 nuts inside the smokebox. It probably took 10 minutes to do each nut. But eventually the boiler came away, and it seems to be in good condition.

 

 

As the boiler was off I took the opportunity to take apart the valve motion and clean the valve rods and eccentric straps up. There doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of wear so I’m guessing the engine didn’t do that much running, however there is soot in the firebox so it was steamed at least once.

 

 

And here’s the engine as it sits right now, along with a screwdriver I carried in with it from the garage.

 

 

 

Douglas

 

[burgundy]

16 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Russian iron was first developed in the 1840s by a group of ironmongers on the western side the Ural Mountains (production later spread to Sweden and other parts of Russia). It was created to provide a material for farmers huts that wouldn't rot away in the harsh Russian winter. The process uses a "cheese" of about 8 wrought iron sheets pre rolled to about 1/2 in thick. These sheets are stacked on top of the other with raw carbon sprinkled in between. They are then heated to cherry red and smashed under a steam hammer, before being quenched in the local natural spring water. This process is repeated until he sheets are about 1/16 of an inch thick.

 

For an interesting sidelight on Russian industry, see the wiki article on John Hughes, who set up the ironworks in what is now Donbas.

Best wishes

Eric

 

[Victorian]

What a transformation! Well done Douglas! I look forward to seeing the inner boiler. The outer shell should just slide off after removing a couple of countersunk screws from the cast backhead.

 

Regarding the spirit feed, that's certainly unusual. For some reason they didn't adopt chicken feed, although they did know about it. Most engines had a drip feed arrangement but I don't see that on yours. It would be possible to modify your tank to chicken feed and while I abhor modifications to these historic models, in this case it's essential. I've had some massive flare ups with these!

 

By the way, be sure to replace that lovely pressure gauge with something more expendable before you light the fire. The dials were often made of Nitrate (as were some carriage windows) and will literally explode if the flame reaches them. Be sure to have a fire extinguisher handy when you light the fire!

 

David

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

Regarding the spirit feed, that's certainly unusual. For some reason they didn't adopt chicken feed, although they did know about it. Most engines had a drip feed arrangement but I don't see that on yours. It would be possible to modify your tank to chicken feed and while I abhor modifications to these historic models, in this case it's essential. I've had some massive flare ups with these!

Yes I agree, it’s unusual. It looks like I works fairly well though, someone has put a lot of thought into how it operates. I may try testing it first before I go about hacking up the bottom of the tank. 
 

Do you have any drawings or photos of what the chicken feed system looks like? I’ve heard the name many times but never seen much in the way of images.

[John R Smith]

Douglas

 

What are you going to do about the missing front bogie and rear pony truck? Fabricate replacements, I assume.

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

31 minutes ago, John R Smith said:

Douglas

 

What are you going to do about the missing front bogie and rear pony truck? Fabricate replacements, I assume.

 

 

Yes that’s the plan, though I intend to get it steaming before investing in wheel castings and such. Also since this is a 2 inch gauge engine finding the correct size wheels may be difficult.

[Deeps]

12 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Today was once again spent scraping, sanding and filing away rust from the clutches of the engine. All three left hand driving wheels have now been cleaned, and all the backhead fittings are polished along with much of the backhead casting. Here are a few photos. Episode two of the YouTube series will probably be coming out Sunday.

 

The big event today though was the taking of the boiler off the frames. This was a very fiddly process as I have to undo the two very rusty 3/32 nuts inside the smokebox. It probably took 10 minutes to do each nut. But eventually the boiler came away, and it seems to be in good condition.

 

 

As the boiler was off I took the opportunity to take apart the valve motion and clean the valve rods and eccentric straps up. There doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of wear so I’m guessing the engine didn’t do that much running, however there is soot in the firebox so it was steamed at least once.

 

 

And here’s the engine as it sits right now, along with a screwdriver I carried in with it from the garage.

 

 

 

Douglas

 

It is coming along nicely Douglas, well done. And what a lovely screwdriver, tell us more.

[J. S. Bach]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Yes that’s the plan, though I intend to get it steaming before investing in wheel castings and such. Also since this is a 2 inch gauge engine finding the correct size wheels may be difficult.

I do hope that you will do the testing with low-pressure air first.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, Deeps said:

It is coming along nicely Douglas, well done. And what a lovely screwdriver, tell us more.

Thank you. I made it back in June. It’s a copy of a larger screwdriver in a friend of mines collection made in the 1860s. The handle is Bolivian Rosewood and the blade is O1 Hardened steel.

 

 

 

 

The original has an ebony handle with an iron ferrule and blade. I made the octagonal section slightly longer on mine.
 

 

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

I do hope that you will do the testing with low-pressure air first.

I already have. The engine runs quite well and the boiler doesn’t sound like it’s leaking with 60 psi in it (which is where I intend to set the safety valve to).

Edited August 3 by Florence Locomotive Works

[sncf231e]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Do you have any drawings or photos of what the chicken feed system looks like? I’ve heard the name many times but never seen much in the way of images.

Here is a drawing from the ASTER (The best gauge 1 live steam locomotives) Manual:

Regards

Fred

NB: I hope it is clear how it works, if not I'll add adescription

[Deeps]

38 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Thank you. I made it back in June. It’s a copy of a larger screwdriver in a friend of mines collection made in the 1860s. The handle is Bolivian Rosewood and the blade is O1 Hardened steel.

 

 

 

 

The original has an ebony handle with an iron ferrule and blade. I made the octagonal section slightly longer on mine.
 

Excellent. Thank you.

[sir douglas]

i only first learnt of Russian iron a few weeks ago, i follow a guy in Colorado on youtube who is designing a Rio Grande 3ft loco in CAD to build a replica which had Russian Iron boiler cladding

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Today was a very momentous occasion. The engine ran on steam for the first time in probably 90-100 years. And it steamed very well, although I’ve got two questions.

 

1. what is the correct way to light the burner in a smithies boiler? I had to gently tip the engine up and sneak a lighter into the firebox which was a bit scary.

2. How does one put the fire out? Or is that not possible?

 

The main thing that went wrong during the steaming was my homemade woolen water gauge glass seals did not work very well, I will replace them with O rings tomorrow. I’ve had success with wool before but not here it seems. The one other issue was that I discovered the clack valve leaks, which is not very striping as they usually do. I have no seated the ball and hopefully it won’t dribble out now. 
 

Here is a link to Episode 2: I used an air hose positioned over the chimney to create an artificial draft. I’ll buy one from Accucraft soon.

 

 

Keen eyed viewed will also note that I made a new smokebox dart. New buffers also need making all around which will be in episode three. 
 

Here is a photo of the gone as it is now. I think this is probably the external condition that it will remain in. The patinated look has grown on me, though I will be repainting the smokebox and its door. 
 

Douglas

Edited August 4 by Florence Locomotive Works

[sncf231e]

7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

1. what is the correct way to light the burner in a smithies boiler? I had to gently tip the engine up and sneak a lighter into the firebox which was a bit scary.

2. How does one put the fire out? Or is that not possible?

Douglas

1. With a piece of copper wire and a strand of "asbestos" you can make a small lighter (igniting bar called by ASTER), which you wet with alcohol, light with your lighter and then and use to light the fire (by putting it under the fire box between the wheels while there is a draft at the smokebox).

 

 

2. In general without any draft the fire will go out soon (but it might try to find some air around  the firebox and damage any paint). Most smaller engines have an alcohol tank which will be empty before the water runs out, so putting in less alcohol will help.

 

Regards

Fred

Edited August 4 by sncf231e

[sncf231e]

Maybe there is a (gauge 1) live steam club in the area that you live? Most of the members of these clubs are stubborn whiners like me, but they always try to help.

Regards

Fred

[Victorian]

Most of the gauge 2 models were designed to ‘light up’ with the smoke box door open. Electric fans were far in the future and the alternative was to have a footman blow into a rubber tube, or lie under the track blowing into the smoke box. 
 

Seriously you have to be very careful about flare ups with these early models. If the model stops without the blower, flames will quickly enter the cab and wreck the pressure gauge. The worst scenario is where the water runs out so no draft and no blower and everything very hot. This is a recipe for serious trouble. I use a Co2 ‘puffer’ with a quick blast down the chimney which instantly kills the fire for routine stops and always have a 2Kg Co2 extinguisher to hand.

 

The drip feed sump arrangements are especially dangerous and my Jubb Atlantic has been enveloped in flames more than once. How Mr Jubb ran this engine in the attic of his house in Sheffield (witnessed by Greenly in person) without burning the place to the ground escapes me!

David