Restoring a Carson/Bassett Lowke LB&SCR J2 in 2 inch Gauge

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

Today after a bit of bargaining I managed to acquire this very battered Smithies boiler (I think) live steam Gauge 1 model of the LBSCR J2 class “Beesborough.” It looks to be either a Carson product or a Bassett Lowke special order, but I’ve checked the Carson production list and they never made a J2 in Gauge 1. 
 

The model is a little unusual as it appears to have been painted grey originally, and is not a faithful replica of Beesborough. Beesbrough had outside Walschearts valve gear, which is not present on mine. Mine seems to show its twin, “Abergavenny” which did not have outside valve gear. Beesborough was modified to become a J2 fairly early on in life which means my engine was probably made about 1912. This also means that whoever built it either knew that the second engine would be called Beesborough and assumed it would look like Abergavenny, or they just chose not to make the complex outside motion. 
 

Here the photos off eBay as I don’t have the engine yet. Said engine is currently in Ohio. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

My intentions are to restore the engine back to steaming condition, and hopefully back to her original appearance. Any info or speculation about her origins is most welcome. 
 

For comparison, here is Beesborough on the top and Abergavenny on the bottom.

 

 

 

Douglas

Edited August 7 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Paul H Vigor]

9 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Hello all,

 

Today after a bit of bargaining I managed to acquire this very battered Smithies boiler (I think) live steam Gauge 1 model of the LBSCR J2 class “Beesborough.” It looks to be either a Carson product or a Bassett Lowke special order, but I’ve checked the Carson production list and they never made a J2 in Gauge 1. 
 

The model is a little unusual as it appears to have been painted grey originally, and is not a faithful replica of Beesborough. Beesbrough had outside Walschearts valve gear, which is not present on mine. Mine seems to show its twin, “Abergavenny” which did not have outside valve gear. Beesborough was modified to become a J2 fairly early on in life which means my engine was probably made about 1912. This also means that whoever built it either knew that the second engine would be called Beesborough and assumed it would look like Abergavenny, or they just chose not to make the complex outside motion. 
 

Here the photos off eBay as I don’t have the engine yet. Said engine is currently in Ohio. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

My intentions are to restore the engine back to steaming condition, and hopefully back to her original appearance. Any info or speculation about her origins is most welcome. 
 

For comparison, here is Beesborough on the top and Abergavenny on the bottom.

 

 

 

Douglas

Well done for rescuing her!

[pete_mcfarlane]

The J tanks were beautiful locos. That will look amazing when restored. 

[Oldddudders]

326 seems to have kept her name until 1924, and her clerestory roof for another decade. She and 325 were stalwarts of the Brighton Main Line business expresses to/from London Bridge for many years, saw out their twilight years on the Oxted group of lines. 

[cypherman]

Looking forwards to seeing you restore her.

[Nick Holliday]

"Bessborough" actually appeared in lined grey livery, with full lettering.  There is a picture in Bradley Vol 3 of No 326 at Littlehampton in that livery, whilst on trial.  According to Bradley, it received the full umber treatment before it went into revenue service.  "Abergavenny" ran in lined grey livery until June 1912, going into works for various alterations and re-appearing in umber.

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

"Bessborough" actually appeared in lined grey livery, with full lettering.  There is a picture in Bradley Vol 3 of No 326 at Littlehampton in that livery, whilst on trial.  According to Bradley, it received the full umber treatment before it went into revenue service.  "Abergavenny" ran in lined grey livery until June 1912, going into works for various alterations and re-appearing in umber.

Photographic grey??

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

"Bessborough" actually appeared in lined grey livery, with full lettering.  There is a picture in Bradley Vol 3 of No 326 at Littlehampton in that livery, whilst on trial.  According to Bradley, it received the full umber treatment before it went into revenue service.  "Abergavenny" ran in lined grey livery until June 1912, going into works for various alterations and re-appearing in umber.

That is very interesting, thank you.

[Nearholmer]

The photo is floating about on the web.

 

 

More than one view exists from this “photoshoot”.

 

There are several photos of ‘Abergavenny’ in traffic in grey, because the LBSCR had such an active fan club.

 

It might be sacrilegious, but I think the cab modification improved their looks, making them appear as modern as they were, and that pictures show them to have looked very good in ‘malachite and sunshine’ livery.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27 by Nearholmer

[Florence Locomotive Works]

22 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It might be sacrilegious, but I think the cab modification improved their looks, making them appear as modern as they were, and that pictures show them to have looked very good in ‘malachite and sunshine’ livery.

I didn't even realize they were rebuilt with different cabs until you pointed it out! I think when i fabricate the new one for mine I'll do the old style, probably with the umber livery.

[J. S. Bach]

Hmmm, nice-looking 4-6-2Ts. EDIT: The type was in use over here, too.

 

EDIT: Check out the Boston & Maine , They had some operating out of Boston in commuter service. K-Line offered an O scale (1/48) version in three rail; it is a nicely executed design and looks great when two-railed.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by J. S. Bach
To add some information

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I think when i fabricate the new one for mine I'll do the old style, probably with the umber livery.

Definitely - you probably have a model there that is contemporary with the locos being built, so the later cab would be all wrong.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

K-Line offered an O scale (1/48) version in three rail; it is a nicely executed design and looks great when two-railed

I thought about buying one once but it sold before I could. 

[J. S. Bach]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I thought about buying one once but it sold before I could. 

Then paint it green and letter it GWR?

 

 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

So, here is the story so far.

 

I've been doing a lots of research lately trying to find the maker of this engine. I believe it to have been made (or at least the boiler was) by James Carson & Co Ltd of Cricklewood in North London, probably around 1912 or 1913. Carson ceased making steam engines in mid 1913 so it is definitely pre First World War.

 

I believe this engine to be a Carson mainly because the arrangement of the fittings on the backhead is very typical of Carson, the regulator quadrant is identical to the one used on his engines. Also, the pressure gauge is an early Schaeffer & Budenberg gauge from Germany that Carson often fitted to his larger engines. Most of the upper works seem to be either cast iron or cast aluminium, which were also hallmarks of Mr. Carson. For pictures of a complete and running Carson engine in Colorado, click here.

 

Here is a brief history of Carson that I've managed to put together:

 

Carson is first mentioned in August 1904 as being a member of The Model Engineers Cooperative Society at 57 Summer Road, Birmingham. In November 1905 “Carson & Co, Engineers”  took over the society. Little information can be found from between 1905 and 1910, but in 1909 what Rolland Fuller describes as a “very extensive catalog” was printed. I assume this would be the sum total of products formerly made by all members of the MECS. In 1910 however James Carson & Co Ltd was incorporated and the business moved to Oaklands Road, Cricklewood, North London with a location retained in Birmingham. The company had a large exhibition stand at the 1911 Model Engineering Exhibition, seen below.

 

 

In 1913, James Carson for reasons unknown decided to voluntarily liquidate the company. The buyer was in name Bassett Lowke Ltd of Northampton, however the acquisition is not noted in the minutes of the board and therefore it is thought that Winteringhams bought the company on their behalf. Bassett Lowke does mention that they acquired Carson's business in their 1914 catalog. After this, mentions of Carson in official literature stop completely except for some nostalgic articles written by J C Crebbin and LBSC (Curley Lawrence) in the 1930s. 

 

After Carson finished up with steam engines, he went back to making machine tools which is what he did before his railway foray. He decided to begin producing extremely high quality copies of the famous American made Cataract lathe, one of the few English manufacturers to make this kind of lathe. I'm guessing he found some success with that as he soon began making the very elaborate Carson Tool & Cutter Grinder, a few of which still exist. Here is a photo of the one his lathes, it is very similar to the Rivett 504 that I will be using to restore this engine.

 

 

But this still leaves us with the question of who initially ordered this engine. I don't currently have access to a Carson catalog, but from what i can gather an LBSCR J1 was not listed in their catalog, which would make this a special order item. That is not unusual for either Carson or Bassett Lowke, with whom the order was probably placed. As far as I'm aware, none of Carson's business records survive so it is unlikely we could find out from looking there. I think Bassett Lowke's records still exist, but I'm not sure where and I don't know how complete they are or where they are located. Northampton library seems likely though. 

 

The story that I like to imagine is that the engine was ordered by Count Louis Zborowski, and lived with him at Higham Park till his death at Monza in 1924. It was then sold back to Bassett Lowke and sold to an American who took it with him to Toledo Ohio, where I found it. The Count did mess around with engines smaller than the 15 inch gauge he is normally known for, but no records of his engines survive to my knowledge. However a large part of his layout was recently discovered in a basement in London last year. There is of course no way to prove my theory, but it is at least plausible!

 

For a more complete biography of James Carson, Graces Guide has this article.

 

That is all I have for the moment. All going well the engine is arriving tomorrow.

 

 

Douglas

 

 

[John R Smith]

 

Thank you for that interesting and useful bit of research, Douglas. Which leaves us with the obvious question - how and why did this beautiful model get into such an awful, heavily corroded state? It looks as if it has been in a corrosive environment of some sort for a very long time - left outdoors, perhaps. Who on earth would treat a model like this with no regard for its welfare?

 

 

[Erichill16]

Good luck Douglas and like most on here looking forward to seeing it completed.

 

[sncf231e]

15 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Also, the pressure gauge is an early Schaeffer & Budenberg gauge from Germany that Carson often fitted to his larger engines.

 

 

The use of this pressure gauges does not proof much. Märklin, Bassett-Lowke, H J Woods, Southwark Engineering and Model Works and others used these Pressure gauges.

Regards

Fred

 

Note: When it arrives I bet you will find out it is a 2 inch locomotive 😉. The double row of burners is not typical for G1. 

Edited August 1 by sncf231e

[Florence Locomotive Works]

8 hours ago, John R Smith said:

 

Thank you for that interesting and useful bit of research, Douglas. Which leaves us with the obvious question - how and why did this beautiful model get into such an awful, heavily corroded state? It looks as if it has been in a corrosive environment of some sort for a very long time - left outdoors, perhaps. Who on earth would treat a model like this with no regard for its welfare?

 

 

We shall probably never know I’m afraid. It was an estate sale find, and I intend to inquire with the seller for the address of the house to see what kind of condition the house was in. People have always treated nice things badly, this engine reminds me a lot of the 1922 Bugatti that was driven into a Swiss lake to avoid paying taxes on it. Although I think my engine has a better chance of running than this poor Brescia! Here is an article about it.

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

As promised by UPS, the engine arrived this afternoon. I would describe it as being gloriously corroded. Fred was also right, it is 2 inch gauge which makes life a little difficult but more fun.

 

The reason for this heavy corrosion is very special. Almost all of the engine is constructed using "Russian Iron." This may be an unfamiliar term with UK readers. Russian Iron was a type of iron produced primarily in Russia (though later America) in the 19th and early 20th century. It has a wonderful blue color that does not fade with heating, and is somewhat water resistant. It was frequently used on American locomotives for boiler and cylinder cladding. Well known examples include the NYC&HRR 999 in original unrebuilt form, and some of the preserved Virginia & Truckee engines. The only user in the UK that I know of was the G&SWR who used it to clad the boilers for their 4-6-4 tanks. 

 

Anyhow, I said "somewhat" water resistant earlier. Russian Iron is fine for light water, as long as it is wiped away. What it hates is humidity and continual covering with water, which causes it to corrode extremely badly. This is what has happened to my engine. The side tanks and bunker were left unpainted (except for gold lining and the name), and would've been splendid when new but have now turned rather brown. There is little to be done about this other than to scrape away all the rust with a chisel and hope the blue finish has survived beneath. So that is what i spent six hours doing today, scraping away at the left hand water tank and the bunker. The results were better than I expected, much more blue survives than I estimated though the pictures below were taken before.

 

The boiler cladding is also made from Russian Iron, but was painted and lined in LBSCR umber. Under several layers of filth, a decent amount of this paint remains. I think I will keep it as it is probably original LBSCR paint, very rare these days. 

 

Here are a few photos, and a video which fills in a lot of other things about the engine that would take ages to type out.

 

 

 

 

 

And here is the video. The clip of the engine running was taken right out of the box before i started polishing the motion.

 

 

 

Douglas

[sncf231e]

From the Bassett Lowke 1915 catalogue:

Regards

Fred

Edited August 2 by sncf231e

[Victorian]

Douglas

 

Congratulations and welcome to the wonderful world of Gauge2! My own ‘Abergavenny’ (C Butcher & Co, c. 1911) is here as I write this to welcome the new arrival:

 

 

I’ve watched the fascinating video, thanks. Here are some thoughts:

 

Russia iron is virtually unknown here in UK. I’m fortunate even to have a small sample of it, given to me by the Director of one of your Railway museums. I have to agree that the material shown in your picture does indeed look like Russia iron. To my mind, this points strongly to a U.S. origin for your model.

 

 

 

[Victorian]

Continued: (iPad doesn’t play nicely with RMWeb!)

 

Are the screw threads Whitworth, as in English models of this period?

 

Is there an oiler? I can see an oil pipe leading forward. The piston packing was often cotton and may be rotten. Anyway, it needs oil.

 

There probably isn’t asbestos under the cladding. These boilers needed free flow around the inner barrel, although a sheet of ceramic paper across the crown can preserve the paint.

 

Did you replace the Gauge glass? The diameters used can be hard to source.

 

It’s great to see a model of this period that hasn’t been trashed by a century of meddling, or even worse, ‘restoration’. To see it run on air like that is remarkable! The reason that the carrying wheels are missing may be that a previous owner had tight curves. ‘Abergavenny’ needs 10’ radius.

 

SNCF, thanks so much for showing that 1915 page. I hadn’t seen that before, and it appears to show my other ‘Abergavenny’ which is built to Greenly’s drawings.

 

Well done Douglas!

 

[John R Smith]

 

The name "Russia (or Russian) Iron" is a bit puzzling If it was a sheet material, it was more likely to be a form of steel, rather than iron, surely. The Wikipedia entry does not shed much light in this regard, either.

 

There was much debate back in the 1950s about the exact nature of the black paint used on L&NWR locomotives, which was described at the time as "blackberry black". It makes you wonder if their boiler cladding was a bit special, too?

 

 

[roythebus1]

Was cast ali available in 1912?  Also would it be easier and quicker to bead blast the corrosion away?