ER multiple multiple units (esp. 105 & 101) late 60s

[EasternO]

The ER ordered multiple units in 2-car formations most of the time but as rail traffic increased and MUs became more prolific 2-car units were coupled together to form 4-car and 6-car units, possibly longer too.

 

I was wondering if there was a preferred orientation to couple these up? For example, power/trailer/power/trailer or power/trailer/trailer/power or maybe just random.

 

I've tried to look for pictures but no real luck so far. Thanks for any help.

[Covkid]

Can't really comment about the Eastern Region but I used to help my chargeman at Machynlleth coupling and splitting DMUs.  Apart from high summer we rarely had 3 car units on shed but coupled in the platforms. For example the 1042 Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth was a five car which was split at Machynlleth.  The leading 3 car went to Aberystwyth whilst the 2 car went to Pwllheli, then on it's return from Pwllheli, the 2 car coupled on the rear of the 3 car from Aberystwyth to head back to England. So these units went in their "pre ordained" formations, but would obviously need to have been formed up from Shrewsbury in the right order.

 

One of our requirements late evening was to form up the next morning's "Coast Mail" which was the 0655 Machynlleth-Pwllheli. This was formed of three 2 car units.  The 0415 Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth arrived in Machynlleth with a 3 car DMU hauling a van - mostly a CCT.  The parcels for the coast, and our parcels were unloaded onto the platform, then the mail despatched to Aberystwyth.  A driver then brought the "Coast Mail" into the platform so that the parcels could be loaded into the brakevans. 

 

The Coast mail units were 3 units diagrammed to be coupled the previous night after fuelling on the shed so would have been formed up whichever way they arrived. The units in this period were Chester allocated 2 car class 101 103 and 108, which were pretty much allocated indiscriminately.        

[Jeremy Cumberland]

They were coupled together whichever way round they happened to be.

 

In some places, units might always (or almost always) have been the same way round, if they never got turned in any of the depot's diagrams, but I think this was unusual with DMUs.

 

If the units were different and later going to be split, they would need to be in the correct order, such as the one @Covkid mentioned above, where the 3 car unit needed to be on the front at Shrewsbury. Shrewsbury might have needed to shunt to get the units the right way round in the first place, but it wouldn't matter whether this was done by turning the 5-car set on the Abbey Foregate triangle or whether it was done by uncoupling the two units and shunting them to couple at the opposite ends.

[Wickham Green too]

The Southern Region made a point of marking the 'van' ends of two/three car units with an inverted triangle so that station staff knew where their parcels were going to arrive* ...... and, by implication, there was no attempt to fix their orientation.

 

* I've never really got my head round the logic of that as the 'van' ends of four car units were not marked.

[Cwmtwrch]

10 hours ago, EasternO said:

The ER ordered multiple units in 2-car formations most of the time but as rail traffic increased and MUs became more prolific 2-car units were coupled together to form 4-car and 6-car units, possibly longer too.

Class 101 were built as 2-car, 3-car and 4-car sets. The 2-car sets included some motor driver composites [possibly for power twins?] although first class was usually in the trailer car of 2- and 3-car sets, presumably for reduced noise and vibration. So far as I can remember Blue Square control systems permitted up to 6 power cars in one formation, but coupling together more than two or three 2-car sets seems unlikely on power/weight ratio grounds. Three 3-car sets [not class 101] coupled together appeared on the WR from time to time in the 1960s.

Edited July 25 by Cwmtwrch

[bécasse]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

The Southern Region made a point of marking the 'van' ends of two/three car units with an inverted triangle so that station staff knew where their parcels were going to arrive* ...... and, by implication, there was no attempt to fix their orientation.

 

* I've never really got my head round the logic of that as the 'van' ends of four car units were not marked.

I never understood the logic of that either, a triangle on its base on "non-van" ends would have conveyed the "go to the other end" message quite well.

[Cwmtwrch]

8 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

* I've never really got my head round the logic of that as the 'van' ends of four car units were not marked.

Possibly because they [and the 6-car sets] had driving motor brake seconds at both ends and local instructions told them which end their parcels should be in?

[Wickham Green too]

Possibly.

 

Of course it largely became irrelevant when they started putting the vans in the middle !

[Jeremy Cumberland]

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Possibly.

 

Of course it largely became irrelevant when they started putting the vans in the middle !

And DMMUs almost all had the vans in the middle, more or less, with the only exception I can think of being the Swindon Inter-Cities built for Glasgow-Edinburgh, and bubble cars, of course. Hence no need for marking the ends, or for ensuring consistent orientation. Quite likely, bubble car + DT pairs were kept in a consistent orientation for operational reasons, but I didn't encounter them enough to know. I suppose the brake could still be at the outer or inner end of the bubble car.

 

The other operational reason for orientation was the position of the first class, but the two ends of a 57 ft 2-car set weren't exactly a long way apart.

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Quite likely, bubble car + DT pairs were kept in a consistent orientation for operational reasons, but I didn't encounter them enough to know. I suppose the brake could still be at the outer or inner end of the bubble car.

I certainly remember coming across both orientations - very frustrating if the van was at the front and one hoped to view the line ahead "over the driver's shoulder".

[Jeremy Cumberland]

5 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I certainly remember coming across both orientations

There are four possible orientations when you consider which end the DT is. Or was the DT always at the same end?

[nigb55009]

The SR four car units had a brake van at both ends, immediately behind the drivers cab. It was only later, with the introduction of the 4CIG/BIG units that the van was moved to one of the two inner vehicles. 4VEP, 4REP & 4TC sets also had vans in the centre vehicles. When the 4CEP/4BEP units were refurbished in the 1980s the brake vans were moved to the inner vehicles.

[Wickham Green too]

That accounts for the gangwayed vehicles ......... the only non-gangwayed stock with centre vans were the 4CAP sets - formed by coupling two 2HAP units, Motor Brake to Motor Brake.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

There are four possible orientations when you consider which end the DT is. Or was the DT always at the same end?

No, but it was single ended, so always non-driving end to the DMBS.

 

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, nigb55009 said:

The SR four car units had a brake van at both ends, immediately behind the drivers cab. It was only later, with the introduction of the 4CIG/BIG units that the van was moved to one of the two inner vehicles. 4VEP, 4REP & 4TC sets also had vans in the centre vehicles. When the 4CEP/4BEP units were refurbished in the 1980s the brake vans were moved to the inner vehicles.

 

56 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

That accounts for the gangwayed vehicles ......... the only non-gangwayed stock with centre vans were the 4CAP sets - formed by coupling two 2HAP units, Motor Brake to Motor Brake.

But these are all EMUs, which I don't think ever had the van end marked?

[Clive Mortimore]

18 hours ago, EasternO said:

The ER ordered multiple units in 2-car formations most of the time but as rail traffic increased and MUs became more prolific 2-car units were coupled together to form 4-car and 6-car units, possibly longer too.

 

I was wondering if there was a preferred orientation to couple these up? For example, power/trailer/power/trailer or power/trailer/trailer/power or maybe just random.

 

I've tried to look for pictures but no real luck so far. Thanks for any help.

I have the 1969 DMU working diagram book for the Kings Cross to Cambridge services and it is full of information about which units work which trains and which ones are coupled with each other and when are and when they are split. It however does not indicate which end the DMBS or DTC should be.

The corresponding loco hauled carriage workings does state which way round catering cars should be arranged, kitchen facing south or north as well as a few other types of coaches.

 

As the DMU book does not indicate which way round a unit should be and like yourself studying photos of ER two car units there seems no logical pattern

Edited July 25 by Clive Mortimore

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Just now, Cwmtwrch said:

But these are all EMUs, which I don't think ever had the van end marked?

All Southern 2-car EMUs with yellow ends had the van end marked. Full green ends are before my time, and I don't know whether some other marking was employed, but I don't remember seeing photographs of triangles on green ends. There are photos of triangles on small yellow panels.

 

The key thing is that it is only units that had the brake at one end that were marked, which basically means 2-car EMUs and 3-car DEMUs. The Swindon Edinburgh-Glasgow DMMUs were also 3 car units with the brake at one end, but since the two ends of the unit looked completely different. Bubble cars are presumably too short to worry about, but the brake end is obvious by having the engine exhausts.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

... There are photos of triangles on small yellow panels. ...

Yes, the two seem to have been introduced at ( about ? ) the same time following trials of orange Vees ( etc ? ) on some green-ended 'Hampshire' units.

[Cwmtwrch]

17 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

All Southern 2-car EMUs with yellow ends had the van end marked. Full green ends are before my time, and I don't know whether some other marking was employed, but I don't remember seeing photographs of triangles on green ends. There are photos of triangles on small yellow panels.

Thanks for that, I have learned something. Looking at photos, some plain green ends seem to have acquired yellow 'V's shortly before yellow panels were introduced; otherwise green ends seem to have had no markings that I can find. Yellow panels had black inverted triangles for contrast. I've found a 1990s photo of a unit in NSE livery still with the black triangle.

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

following trials of orange Vees ( etc ? ) on some green-ended 'Hampshire' units.

The very few photos I have seen show a yellow V https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-2H-3H-3T-Hampshire.html. A lot of pre-digital railway photography was done with slide film, and some slides showed a regrettable tendency to colour degradation, sometimes resulting in a red bias, which may account for an orange appearance. 

Edited July 26 by Cwmtwrch

[Clive Mortimore]

41 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Thanks for that, I have learned something. Looking at photos, some plain green ends seem to have acquired yellow 'V's shortly before yellow panels were introduced; otherwise green ends seem to have had no markings that I can find. Yellow panels had black inverted triangles for contrast. I've found a 1990s photo of a unit in NSE livery still with the black triangle.

The very few photos I have seen show a yellow V https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-2H-3H-3T-Hampshire.html. A lot of pre-digital railway photography was done with slide film, and some slides showed a regrettable tendency to colour degradation, sometimes resulting in a red bias, which may account for an orange appearance. 

From the link you have provided.
 

Quote

 

Liveries

Orange Vees

During 1960 the units started to have a large luminous orange ‘Vee’ painted on the cab ends, unit no.1102 being the first done. When the yellow warning panels were applied (1964-65) the motor-coach ends received a black triangle instead; unit no.1112 being the first about March 1964. Some units were still sporting orange Vees in the last quarter of 1965.

The imperative for the orange ‘Vee’ is believed to come from mail pick-ups at Winchester City following the introduction of 2H /3H units on the Alton to Southampton services. These units only had a brake van at one end (the motor coach) whereas the steam hauled carriage sets had brake vans at each end with the guard riding in the rear.

Postal staff would traditionally be waiting to load mail into the rear of the train but with a 2H/3H unit the only brake van might arrive at the front of the unit. As a consequence, this could cause service delays as postal staff had to move the mail along the platform to the front of the train.

Accordingly, the orange-Vee would provide an early indication to station /postal staff that there was no brake van at the other end of the unit.

As this problem did not exist on the Central Division the 3D ‘East Sussex’ units (latterly referred to as ‘Oxted’ units) were not equipped with orange-Vees.

In terms of the carriage of mail the brake van provision on 2H /3H units wasn’t generous and on later 3H ‘Berkshire’ builds a seating bay was sacrificed to provide a larger baggage area.

 

 

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

From the link you have provided.

Another quote from the site, which I found some time ago when doing research into Banana Vans, says under BR liveries:

"Banana vans were insulated with many being steam heated, were painted bauxite. The insulated doors were heavier than conventional wagon types so BR Banana vans (at least) were normally equipped with three pairs of hinges. The BR wagons sported a yellow disc about eighteen inches in diameter to the left of the body side with the tare weight of the vehicle written on it in black."

 

It's an interesting, and potentially useful, site, but needs to be approached with a certain amount of caution.

 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

22 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I have the 1969 DMU working diagram book for the Kings Cross to Cambridge services and it is full of information about which units work which trains and which ones are coupled with each other and when are and when they are split. It however does not indicate which end the DMBS or DTC should be.

The corresponding loco hauled carriage workings does state which way round catering cars should be arranged, kitchen facing south or north as well as a few other types of coaches.

 

As the DMU book does not indicate which way round a unit should be and like yourself studying photos of ER two car units there seems no logical pattern

I think there were some generic carriage marshalling instructions Clive including that the coach next to the catering vehicle should be coupled with lavatories adjacent to the saloon in the catering vehicle. 
 

Not sure how this related to bog carts with catering vehicles … 

Edited July 26 by Phil Bullock

[EasternO]

Thanks all for contributing. I've nothing more to add personally, as my question was answered way up the thread, but I'm really enjoying reading the thread drift!

 

Cheers all

[bécasse]

I distinctly remember the vee's being orange but the actual colour was slightly strange and I wonder if a fluorescent paint was used to make them more visible after dark. A fluorescent paint would have picked up station lighting.

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, bécasse said:

... orange but the actual colour was slightly strange ...

Uranium Orange ?