Simplifying control panels

[sholidom]

Having gone through a couple of different control panel designs, I'm planning on embarking on yet another, hoping to get it 'right' this time.

I have a layout with 37 points all controlled by Tortoise motors.  At present, connections 1 and 8 on the motors go back to DPDT switches in the panel, 2&3 are connected to the rails and 4 to the electofrogs.  5,6,and 7 are spare.

Within the panel, the DPDT switches draw 12v DC current and are also connected to LEDs to indicate the route of the point.  

The down side of this set up, is that there is an awful lot of wiring in the box and the route lights have to be pre-set to make sure they correctly reflect what is happening on the track.

I am currently drawing inspiration from the Tony Docks layout ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_workOYYz8), in which he has wired his control panel in such a way that the power for the route lights is taken from the electrofrog so that the correct routing is always shown.  I note also, however, that he draws 16v current for the control panel from the (presumably) DCC bus bar via a capacitor discharge unit.  

Since I already have a CDU, I'm considering replicating his wiring as it seems so much simpler.  However, he has used Gaugemaster solenoid point motors and looks to be a lot more knowledgeable on electrics that I am!

So coming to the crux of the matter, if I was to draw my power source for the control panel from the 16v bus bar:

• would I also need a CDU? 
• The LED lights are currently 12v so would I have to change those or would the CDU make that unnecessary,
• would this play havoc with my Tortoises?
• would the Tortoises need rewiring?

 

To those of you who have been doing this for years and know what they're doing, I apologise for my naivety and total lack of what, to many must be common sense, but my previous working life as an accountant was ill preparation for my current project.  That said, I'll also be extremely grateful for the all advice and assistance that I hope may be coming my way!

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

 

I suspect that watching videos for solenoid motors, when using Tortoises isn't helping massively.   So, other than perhaps some ideas for panel shape, don't follow those videos.

 

 

Tortoise wiring stuff:

 

a)   Do you *need* LEDs ?   The switches indicate which way the turnouts are pointing.  You could use rotary switches, with a pointer in the knob, and align the track diagram with the knob to show direction.    ( Contrast with the solenoid panel, where switches which always revert to "centre" were used, so don't indicate direction). 

 

b)   If you do want LEDs,  then wire them in series with the electrical feed going to the Tortoise motors, as shown in the Tortoise maker's instructions.  Makes wiring much simpler, no extra resistors or circuits required.  

 

c)   If wanting to really reduce panel (and layout) wiring, then go for either AC plus half-rectification diodes, or twin stacked DC power supplies into the panel and layout (If wanting to do this with stacked DC, and not sure how, ask again, it is simple once you know how).  Either of these power arrangements gives three wires coming into the layout, which are:  "+Volts",  "0volts" and "-Volts".  The switches become single pole change over, to select between +Volts or -Volts, sending one of them to each turnout (connection 1 on the Tortoise).  The 0volts goes to the layout, and is connected to every Tortoise on Connection 8.    S   This reduces the wiring count to 38 wires to layout (37 at one per motor plus the 0volts).    The LEDs can still be placed in the wire going out from panel switch, as per the Tortoise instructions.   ( All this IS in the Tortoise instruction sheet).

 

 

 

And I cannot recommend using the DCC track bus as a source of AC power.   For a lot of reasons, but if you've got 37 turnouts, its really not a good idea. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22 by Nigelcliffe

[sholidom]

Very many thanks, Nigel.

Writing as someone who, very many years ago, attained the lowest grade in his GCE in physics, I've been struggling to get to grips with the basics of engineering and electronics ever since. But I'm getting there with the help and advice from those such as your good self so, again, many thanks.

 

[ITG]

I’m far from an expert on your dilemma, but on a previous (DCC) layout I built a control panel using DCC Concepts Alpha Mimic units. I’m sure others will chip in if this won’t do what you’re looking for.

Here’s the information guide.

https://www.dccconcepts.com/themencode-pdf-viewer-sc/?tnc_pvfw=ZmlsZT1odHRwczovL3d3dy5kY2Njb25jZXB0cy5jb20vd3AtY29udGVudC91cGxvYWRzLzIwMTYvMDIvTUlNSUMtTWFudWFsLnBkZiZzZXR0aW5ncz0xMTExMTExMTEmbGFuZz1lbi1VUw==#page=&zoom=auto&pagemode=

 

I don’t have this panel any longer, so I cannot recall all details, but basically the Alpha mimic unit allows you to use LED push-button switches on the panel on each route option, which then sends the DCC address command to the turnout motor. So doesn’t really matter what type of motor (as long as it’s DCC of course). I’m pretty sure there were only two wires running from panel to layout. I’ve always found DCC Concepts very helpful (no connection etc…) so if interesting for you, give them a call. The only reason I ditched this layout and method of control is I decided to use a screen based panel using iTrain, with the added functionality that brings.

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

29 minutes ago, ITG said:

I’m far from an expert on your dilemma, but on a previous (DCC) layout I built a control panel using DCC Concepts Alpha Mimic units. I’m sure others will chip in if this won’t do what you’re looking for.

 

It only works if the OP buys a lot of additional parts.  The Tortoise motors will all require a DCC accessory decoder to drive them (37 motors, a lot of decoders), then all the Alpha system stuff has to be bought.    Then it may be a solution, but it will be expensive.   And there's still the layout of the control panel to do. 

 

 

I can provide links to a supplier who will do the control panel "appearance" side of things.  I'm a friend of someone who offers this professionally;  Clear acrylic (Perspex) top sheet, all switch and LED holes drilled, colour below the clear acrylic with track diagrams, labels, etc..    It will look superb, and the price is very reasonable.   But, before heading off to that sort of thing, the actual design and wiring needs to be decided, because a panel can only be cut and coloured once the design is known.  

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, sholidom said:

Very many thanks, Nigel.

Writing as someone who, very many years ago, attained the lowest grade in his GCE in physics, I've been struggling to get to grips with the basics of engineering and electronics ever since. But I'm getting there with the help and advice from those such as your good self so, again, many thanks.

 

 

Once you've decided on general approach, come back with more questions.   
I really recommend the single pole switching option (c), once understood, it massively reduces the wiring count.   If you do want LED indicators, then with option (c), it is fairly simple with double-pole switches to include "cascading" LEDs by using the second poles on the switch for this:  if you have a turnout into a siding fan-out, then the siding routes only illuminate their LEDs when the entry turnout is set into the sidings, and so on through the whole sequence of turnouts.   

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

40 minutes ago, ITG said:

I’m far from an expert on your dilemma, but on a previous (DCC) layout I built a control panel using DCC Concepts Alpha Mimic units……

……………basically the Alpha mimic unit allows you to use LED push-button switches on the panel on each route option, which then sends the DCC address command to the turnout motor.……

I think you have the wrong DCC Concepts product there, Ian.

Alpha Mimic allows you to build a mimic indicator panel, but does not provide for the use of any type of control (buttons, or switches).

There are other Cobalt Alpha products that allow you to build a  mimic control panel, using switches/ buttons and LEDs ( Alpha Encoder etc, etc.).

Just 2 wires out of the control panel to the track or accessory bus, instead of several dozen wires routing out to feed every point on the layout.

However, having chosen Tortoise motors, the OP would need to purchase a whole bunch of accessory decoders to operate those 37 points.

 

 

.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Apologies if I have misunderstood the situation or if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, but I think there is confusion about what the OP is doing/trying to achieve and the OP's overall control objectives.   It seems to me the key questions here are about what one means by DCC, and the way in which the modeller wants to control his layout.

 

I infer from what the OP says that he is already using DCC as the power supply to DCC-fitted locos.  Fine, that already simplifies his panel requirement by eliminating the section switches/cab control and associated wiring we are all used to with analogue locos.  However he is apparently still using conventional wiring to operate points and similar accessories from swtiches on a control panel.  In other words he has only gone half DCC.  That's also perfectly acceptable as an approach and it is certainly cheaper than going DCC with the accessories too, so many peole are perfectly happy to do that.

 

To go fully DCC (if that's what he wants to do), the accessories themlves also require their own decoders (of a different type to locos, and not as expensive as sound chips - accessory decoders), as Nigel says.  The points are then sent instructions on when to change the DCC Command Station.  As mintioned above, the advice with this approach would be to run those accessories (the point motors) from a second bus rather than using the track bus - the latter is technically possible, but causes certain problems in practice.   It should be realised however that having done this. the panel, point switches, CDUs etc are no longer required at all, because the commands to change points are instigated not by switches on a panel but by pressing buttons on his DCC handset(s).

 

There is a downside to doing just this, in that the operator may well prefer to have a panel to set the route rather than faff about issuing commands to change points.  In that case, it is possible to have switches on a panel which themselves connect via their own decoders (yet more cost) to tell the Command Station to issue the command to the point to change.  And if you also want to display on a panel what route is set etc, the command station repeats back to LEDs (again via a decoder).  The wiring for the panel would be two wires, connecting the accessory bus  to the control panel.  Another approach would be to use software (eg iTrain) running on an Ipad or laptop to act as the panel.

 

The OP needs to consider the overall control architecture (including of course his budget!) before choosing which particular products such as Alpha Mimic he might want  to buy.

 

 

[ITG]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I think you have the wrong DCC Concepts product there, Ian.

Alpha Mimic allows you to build a mimic indicator panel, but does not provide for the use of any type of control (buttons, or switches).

There are other Cobalt Alpha products that allow you to build a  mimic control panel, using switches/ buttons and LEDs ( Alpha Encoder etc, etc.).

Just 2 wires out of the control panel to the track or accessory bus, instead of several dozen wires routing out to feed every point on the layout.

However, having chosen Tortoise motors, the OP would need to purchase a whole bunch of accessory decoders to operate those 37 points.

 

 

.

 

You’re quite right. It’s the Cobalt Alpha and encoder products I referred to.

 

and, not having used Tortoise, I hadn’t realised they weren’t DCC, especially as the OP had posted in the DCC section.

Ian

[Tom D]

Years ago, I based my control panels on the video shown by Luke Towan (link below), I find him to be an excellent modeller, and his videos are well done and easy to follow. Like the OP, I have Tortoise switch machines, and still enjoy running DCC locos with manual switches for the operation of my layout.

 

To make it easy on the wiring issue, I have 3 control panels, that make wiring a bit more manageable, not saying this is a perfect solution, just another option to consider.

 

Best regards,

 

TomD

 

 

 

[sholidom]

To elaborate on my earlier post, my layout is DCC via a NEC Powercab while the control panel is DC via a 9V transformer.   I do not intend converting  the control panel DCC because, as Nigel correctly identified, with 37 points the cost of doing so is a bit steep.  

The current setup works ok (ish). Some years ago, I watched the video that Tom linked  and set up my LEDs accordingly.  However, in my experience it does require the modeller to manually identify that the two lights are placed in the correct holes as it is possible to get them the wrong way round so that the route indicated may not reflect the actual one. 

The wiring in the Tony Docks video that I referred to avoids this by linking the DPDT switches and LEDs to the electrofrog  in such a way that this never happens; the LEDs are wired to be switched on off depending on the polarity of the electrofrog at any given moment.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,  but what I have deduced from your responses is that with Tortoise motors, this will never work. The 1st and 8th connections power each motor with 9V DC while the polarity of the electrofrog (should I try to introduce that into the equation) is 16V AC.

If I powered the Tortoise motors from the 16v AC bus using a couple of diodes in the circuit and changed to SPDT switches (as per the Tortoise instruction sheet), would that work or would the effect of the diodes, by effectively converting AC to DC, still create a conflict?  

Otherwise it looks like I'm back to my existing way of doing things.  I'll just have to make sure, the 'right' LED goes into the 'right' hole! 

Again, many thanks for all the responses to my query.

[Nigelcliffe]

There are many ways to wire things.  A few comments, then "how I suggest you do it"

 

Any arrangement requires you identify which LED matches which direction of movement, there isn't a "magic answer", though some ways are easier to wire than others.     

 

The Luke Towan video above isn't very efficient, it uses a DPDT change-over, which means twice as many wires per turnout from panel to layout (rather than one per turnout).   His method for LEDs may be necessary for Cobalt motors, but adds extra wire and resistors, which are not needed for Tortoise (different internal resistance inside a Tortoise).   DCC Concepts sell a stacked-DC power supply for the single-pole change over wiring method to go with Tortoise or Cobalt motors, so the simpler wiring is directly supported for Cobalts !

 

 

Wiring back from the frog does guarantee that the LED indicates the frog polarity.  BUT, its at least one extra wire per turnout back to the control panel, plus the DCC track feeds, so 39(+) additional wires !    It is a common solution for solenoid motors, as unless one fires them all at a session, the control panel can be reporting different things to the layout.    But, if not using solenoid motors, a lot of extra wire and extra connections for little gain.  Tortoise will set themselves to match the switch panel as soon as you turn on the power to the panel and motors.    

 

 

Really, do not use the DCC bus to power your turnouts.  (It can work, its sort of 16vAC (give or take), but its an expensive way of doing things - a PowerCab cost about ten times as much as a power supply).      9v DC is fine, and stacked twin 9v DC may be simplest wiring from where you are...

 

 

How I'd do it...

 

Power supplies, to give +volts, 0volts and -volts, either:
A 16v AC transformer (eg. an old DC controller?),  plus two rectifier diodes.   
Or from two 9v DC powersupplies, connect the +volts of one supply, to the -volts of the other supply, this gives three outputs as shown (power supplies without a metal earth pin, or if a "brick" with a lead into them, with a 2-pin lead, not 3-pin lead (*))

 

 

Then, from which ever of the power arrangements you choose, with their three power connections. 

 

I'd design a panel which didn't need many LEDs; most of the time use the switches to indicate direction.   However, as you want LEDs...   

I've coloured the LEDs Red and Blue, which match the direction of the switches, of the wiring into the switches matches the colouring of the power supply.   

If you find a Tortoise is going the "wrong way", then you can swap the wires between 1 and 8 on any Tortoise.   

If not needing LEDs, then the wire from Tortoise pin 1 goes straight to the switch common.   

Dotted line indicates what's within a control panel.   

 

 

 

 

 

(* reason on DC power supplies, some with 3-pin leads may connect the 0v to the "earth pin", which means the stacking will short circuit via the mains earth, which is BAD for many reasons! ).  

 

 

[DCB]

Classic case of sorting out what matters and what does not.      Direct Point frog operation of LEDs can be done with DCC as line voltage is pretty constant though the point frog changes relative polarity when the point is thrown.   Can't work with DC as the LEDs would go out when trains stop and barely glow when trains go slow or go supernova at full power. For DC you need a separate switch to sense point direction with a separate power feed  9 volt etc  I  use 3 Volts for LEDs

LEDs look pretty.

If the panel is for a portable / exhibition layout then a single wire  pair between panel and Baseboards or daisy chained baseboards makes a lot of sense.  Likewise on an existing layout it might make sense to build an autonomous panel with a single pair connection,  I have never built a control panel, I just put switches on bits of board. Or through baseboard framing, always mouther vertically so as to minimise the space used.

Rotary switches for route selection, will give up to 12 routes per switch  on the common or garden £2  - 12 way type while using a diode matrix  for Slow action motors or with CDU(s)  Diode matrixes and energise push buttons for solenoids.   These give a visual indication and with a double gang (fancy) rotary can give power for route indicating LEDs    I prefer stud and probe operation with a CDU or CDUs as its incredibly cheap (can also have LED route indication from accessory switches.

Like Government Policies any choice giving any advantage results in all sorts of unexpected problems.    My Loft layout was abandoned when the cost of the control system proved un affordable, rather like 35 decoders added to the cost of 35 tortoises rather skews the finances (certainly from my position as a Pensioner.)     What one can't do is mix and match without understanding what is and what is not compatible.  Stick to one persons advice, better still get them top come round and do if for you, 

[Harlequin]

@sholidom Nigel's solution is elegant.

 

To make some points absolutely clear:

• You will have to ensure you get the right LED in the right hole in the control panel (same as any solution) but you only have to do that during the initial setup. Once it's done you can ignore it and just enjoy the layout.
• You don't need to run the "0volts" wires (green) from each point motor back to the control panel. Just make one connection to one motor and then chain that to the next, and the next, etc.
• The wires coming back from the point motors to the control panel are as simple as they can possibly be - just one wire per motor.
• The "16VAC" on the frog is the DCC waveform for controlling and powering the locos. Best to leave it doing that job alone and not to try to mix it up with the point control system.
• The Tortoise point motor contains two switches which are not connected to anything inside - they just switch whatever you connect to them. You can use one of those switches to change the "polarity" of the frog by connecting the two sides of the DCC circuit into one of the switches (e.g. into 2 and 3) and connecting the frog to the switch "output" (e.g. 4). That's a little circuit, with short wires, close to the point and none of it needs to come back to the control panel.

BTW: There's nothing wrong with using DCC to drive the trains and a separate, analogue control system to control the points. It's a good way to go and your control panel with switches and LEDs will look great.

 

[spamcan61]

I'll just say don't use a CDU with Tortoises, they're only useful with old school solenoids.

[Harlequin]

Actually @Nigelcliffe, shouldn't the point motor terminal 1 be connected directly to the switch common and the LEDs bridge across to 0v via resistors?

 

[Nigelcliffe]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Actually @Nigelcliffe, shouldn't the point motor terminal 1 be connected directly to the switch common and the LEDs bridge across to 0v via resistors?

 

 

The maker's instructions, linked below, shows that my diagram is correct.   No resistors for LEDs used with a Tortoise if wired that way. 

 

It is possible to add complications, more components and more wires (as do several of the YouTube videos referenced earlier), but it is just making the wiring more complicated than it needs to be.    

 

( "Cobalt" motors, and other brands, are likely to be different, they have a different internal resistance, so the current limiting behaviour is different.).

 

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/AN/AN-6000-07.pdf

 

- Nigel