Places where national rail shares a facility with a heritage railway

[KeithMacdonald]

12 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Has anyone mentioned Robertsbridge?

 

Oh! Nice one. Perhaps with a fully restored connecton all the way to the Kent & East Sussex at Tenterden?

[astropsidings]

On 20/07/2024 at 09:42, Trainnoob said:

Is there a place where Network rail or national rail operators share a site with a heritage railway, because I had an idea for my layout where there's a heritage railway center but part of the facility it sits is a National rail yard or maybe a TMD.

Going back to the original post, mention has been made of Didcot which might be the nearest thing to this, particularly as all traffic is tripped in across the national network. Is the coal the last to be carried on the national network?

 

The Ribble Steam Railway has exchange sidings for the commercial freight traffic which operates to/from it. Edit - I've just noticed its already mentioned.

 

 

Not quite what was asked, but shared facilities:

 

For a couple of years, 2018/19 I think, there was a Saturdays only Salisbury to Corfe Castle and return service.

 

And,

The picture below shows 20 142 working a NYMR Grosmont-Whitby shuttle from the Esk Valley platform at Grosmont during the 2021 September gala. An incident had resulted in the unavailability of a set of coaches for through Pickering-Whitby trains. Consequently shuttles were run using the dining train top and tailed with the 20 and a Black 5 from the Esk valley line platform at Grosmont rather than the NYMR's own station, giving the opportunity to enjoy travel over the national network in a class 20-hauled Mk1 Pullman.

Edited July 22 by astropsidings

[Wheatley]

On 20/07/2024 at 15:09, melmerby said:

I visited it a few years back and I can't remember leaving the station.

We got off the train on the Leeds side, went up the ramp then across the Footbridge to the far platform. IIRC there may have been a gate or something available to divide the Worth Valley bit from NR, if required.

 

The entirety of the main station building except the ramps accessing the K&WVR platforms is within Northern's lease, with gates as shown to close off the KWVR side when required. The station is currently being extensively refurbished (and not before time), there's a VR walkthrough on the KWVR website of what it'll look like when it's finished. 

Edited July 22 by Wheatley

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, astropsidings said:

Going back to the original post, mention has been made of Didcot which might be the nearest thing to this, particularly as all traffic is tripped in across the national network. Is the coal the last to be carried on the national network?

If it isn’t yet I assume it eventually could be.

 

17 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

Interestingly, according to this months Trackside mag, they're getting connected now HS2 has seen off the route between the 2 sides of the operation.

So is the freight line closing completely then? I thought the original plan to make it part of East-West Rail (to provide through Aylesbury to Milton Keynes trains) was being postponed/cancelled but didn’t realise it was being got rid of completely.

 

This seems to give more information but is a bit confusing: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/hs2-freight-deliveries-to-a-town-without-a-railway-station-40760/

 

Edit: maybe I could do another thread on this if it’s of interest? Arguably it’s wildly off-topic for this thread but still an interesting topic.

Edited July 22 by 009 micro modeller

[KeithMacdonald]

The Swanage Railway (steam and diesel heritage) connected to the mainline at Worgret Junction and ran to Wareham ... for a while.
 

Quote

 

The Swanage Railway has withdrawn its plans for a train service to connect Swanage with the mainline at Wareham. Trial services ran in 2017 and 2023 and saw a train service connect Swanage and Wareham via the mainline connection at Worgret Junction. Frank Roberts, chairman of the Swanage Railway Trust, says that whilst the trials were operationally a success, they did not deliver commercially.

 

 

But a while is long enough for us.

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/swanage-railway-withdraws-plans-for-wareham-train-service.htm

 

Steam

https://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/locomotives-stock/category/steam-locomotives

 

and diesel

https://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/locomotives-stock/category/diesel-locomotives

 

Wareham station has plenty of sidings and buildings to suit?

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

On 22/07/2024 at 00:38, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Oh! Nice one. Perhaps with a fully restored connecton all the way to the Kent & East Sussex at Tenterden?

Robertsbridge has a turntable (ex Hither Green) on the RVR side and the hope is to service steam locos off mainline charters, as I understand it.

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Robertsbridge has a turntable (ex Hither Green) on the RVR side and the hope is to service steam locos off mainline charters, as I understand it.

 

Thanks @Tom Burnham for reminding me about the turntable. Here it is modelled with the current track layout, which is visible (with the turntable) on their news page.

 

https://www.rvr.org.uk/news/

 

[25kV]

For a couple of "what ifs":

 

* One could imagine that Steamport Southport survived, and the adjacent goods/coal yard became a Merseyrail stabling point.

 

* Alternatively, using somewhere like Wigan Springs Branch as inspiration, where the old steam shed survived alongside the newer diesel depot for a number of years - perhaps the steam shed became a heritage centre while the diesel depot continued to service mainline locos. 

 

Here's a photo of Wigan from Flickr by Bob Avery (click to find out what the heck is going on here!), with the WCML in the foreground.  Flip the location of the old and new sheds and you could also have a situation where the heritage side heads off along a branch line.

 

 

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, 25kV said:

you could also have a situation where the heritage side heads off along a branch line.

 

 

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

[Fredo]

Hi, The Science and Industry Museum in Manchester was disconnected from the main line a few years ago after Network Rail reconfigured one of their lines. Fred

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, The Science and Industry Museum in Manchester was disconnected from the main line a few years ago after Network Rail reconfigured one of their lines. wasted millions building a new viaduct to connect Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly but the Governement withdrew funding to improve the Oxford Road corridor making it a white elephant.

Fred

Fixed it for you.

 

Hmm, you couldn't make that up and then they only go and do it again to Manchester with HS2, promising a new line and then cutting it short at our expense.

[Morello Cherry]

So basically we have:

 

• Shared station sites but different platforms ie Alton, Bodmin with connection,  Cholsey, Blaenau Ffestiniog without a connection, Aberystwyth
• Shared platforms - Wareham (theoretically), Alton in the early years when p2 was used, Matlock (?), Eridge (?), Whitby(?)
• Connected but not shared stations ie East Grinstead, Totnes, Paignton, SVR
• Shared station sites where one half has some kind of facility. ie Bodmin, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Aberystwyth, SVR
• Professional Heritage depots (not open to the public in space shared with NR) - Carnforth, Southall, Tyseley
• Contract companies that use heritage equipment - ie Burton on Trent, Leicester.
• Professional sites on preserved lines that do contract work for others including potentially mainline companies - Bo'ness, Briddons are two that spring to mind.
• Sites on NR that do some professional heritage restoration - Eastleigh, St Leonards
• Sites on NR that do some contract work for preserved railways - I seem to recall reading of Ilford doing some wheel turning for the NNR.
• Preserved depots on or next to NR sites - Didcot, Yeovil spring to mind, others such as old Steamtown era Carnforth, Dinting.

The nearest contemporary place I can think of where you would find NR and Heritages mixed together are: Barrow Hill and Didcot. Didcot NR normally has stuff stabled there so while not a full depot, and obviously segregated from Didcot heritage.

 

Here you can see - NR station to the right, NR yard with stabled locos in the middle and then the Railway centre to the left.

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/didcot-departure-43195-in-virgin-livery-2001-departs-didcot-copyright-phil-shattered-smith_orig.jpg

 

Essentially, while you are unlikely to find a shared site + shared depot, there are enough combinations and permutations for you to find something that floats your boat.

 

I am also sure that I have seen reference in connection to 35005 to volunteers working down at Eastleigh. edit - link to blog - https://locoyard.com/2013/10/16/simons-journey-into-the-world-of-volunteering-entry-2/

 

 

Edited July 28 by Morello Cherry

[Bulleidnutter]

On 20/07/2024 at 10:31, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

 

 

On 20/07/2024 at 12:53, phil-b259 said:

 

But doe either of these activities occur on a daily basis? I can't imagine the SVR routinely employs a signalman at Kidderminster 24/7 daily for example so locos can come and go from the national network as they please.

 

There is a significant difference between an 'occasional use' setup (be it for testing, short / long term storage / charters / loco exchanges / etc) and daily use. The former is much more in keeping with how a Heritage railway operates where lots of the staff are volunteers and most employed staff will work what we might call 'normal' (ish) hours so people have to be got in specially to facilitate moves to / from the national network rather than the facility to do so being permanently available.

 

 

 

 

Actually Kidderminster TMD has its own TOPS code. During the last winter period we housed Rail adventure and their barrier wagons, all of which were out 3 or 4 times a week. GBRF hired Class 50s, D1015, Class 20s. There was/ is a contract for HST power cars to be brought to the SVR facility to have batteries and other components changed. Test runs and then exported to Mexico. Rail adventure have had other HST power cars stabled on our depot between duties. 

We dont "employ" a signalman. We have on call ground frame operators that are available to open the box to NR. 

[Morello Cherry]

The preserved 4-VEP is being stored/restored at Strawberry Hill, so I assume that NR and SWR are ok with the SETG working on it as volunteers(?) on an NR/SWR site . Photos at the end of the story.

 

https://www.setg.org.uk/4vep-returning-to-traffic-in-2024-with-new-fundraising-appeal/

[Hal Nail]

15 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

So basically we have:

 

• Shared station sites but different platforms ie Alton, Bodmin with connection,  Cholsey, Blaenau Ffestiniog without a connection, Aberystwyth
• Shared platforms - Wareham (theoretically), Alton in the early years when p2 was used, Matlock (?), Eridge (?)

Pretty good summary!

 

Eridge has the old down platform dedicated to the Spa Valley with both faces in use by the preserved line. Mainline trains in either direction use the inside face of the old up platform. I'm not sure if the two lines are actually connected - I think they just run alongside each other in parallel. At Alton an island platform is shared with the outer face (3) for preserved trains. Mainline trains can access the Midhants line via their inside face (2) but they can't run directly into the preserved platform.

 

Last time I was at Eastleigh the Midhants had their own hut inside the shed, although Can Pac's chassis has finally gone back to Ropley now.

Edited July 29 by Hal Nail

[Fredo]

Thanks woodenhead

[Morello Cherry]

On 25/07/2024 at 20:50, adb968008 said:

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

 

Au contraire they did :) albeit a long time ago

 

See here for more images -

 

[Morello Cherry]

This month's Modern Railways throws out a couple of good examples.

 

There is an article about how the new Austrian built Colas Tampers had their shake down tests at the SVR.

 

Opposite that there is a big advert for the GBRF Peterborough Depot open day/NVR diesel gala, including 08s on the Fletton branch.

 

I was at East Grinstead recently and I did think that it would make a good prototype for modelling in a restricted space as the site/connection is long and narrow. 2 platform NR station, the connection is used as a stabling point by Southern, the Bluebell is a single platform and loop with the NR connection behind the platform. Whereas say Alton or Bodmin would need a much wider space with 3 platforms, run round plus associated sidings/depot.

 

One other thing, I suspect you would be unlikely to find a preserved railway with its main steam depot/works at the end of the line connecting to NR simply because the vast majority of preserved line extended to a BR station rather than from a BR station. It's not like the WSR started in Taunton (or Norton Fitzwarren) and extended to Minehead. So preserved railway depot facilities tend to be found at the opposite end of the line to the BR end. 

Also, at most BR sites the old goods or engine sheds have been either turned into station car parks, or demolished for housing, so there often isn't space. I suspect that if the SVR were extending to Kiddie now that the old coal yard would not be free, vacant and available for a whole new 3 platform station to be built. East Grinstead is pretty basic as a station because there just isn't the room - station car parks, and that the old High Level station space is now a supermarket.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Thanks to @Morello Cherry for mentioning East Grinstead, which does have possibilities.

BR/NR on the high level, Bluebell heritage on the low level, but joined together via that goods yard.

Perhaps even some narrow gauge in the timber yard? At least, I'm assuming that's what is shown top right of this screen grab.

Does anyone know?

Ref: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=51.12634&lon=-0.01519&layers=258&b=1&o=100&marker=51.128611,-0.014444

 

[Morello Cherry]

If you were going pre-1939 where there would be mixed facilities then I suspect more narrow gauge/standard gauge exchanges would have facilities for both. Welshpool, Blaenau Ffestiniog (were there facilities for standard gauge there?), Barnstaple/Pilton, Aberystwyth.

 

Nearer to the OPs original post would loco hauled diesel era Aberystwyth count as heritage (BR blue VOR) and NR?

[KeithMacdonald]

Yes, Barnstaple Town Quay would be a nice mix of narrow and standard gauge. The level crossing at one end and the swing bridge at the other would make good scenic breaks.

 

[Morello Cherry]

22 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Yes, Barnstaple Town Quay would be a nice mix of narrow and standard gauge. The level crossing at one end and the swing bridge at the other would make good scenic breaks.

 

 

A good rule one. The L&B survives until the 1950s (a la Welshpool and Llanfair) and Barnstaple becomes the Blaenau Ffestiniog of Devon.

If you want to go further in terms of an alternative universe that might be nearer what the OP wanted, I remember reading (I think Robin Moira White) that at the time of the formation of the WSR that there was a proposal to open the Ilfracombe branch. So an alternative universe where the L&B runs into Barnstaple, the standard gauge heritage line from Ilfracombe connects and the NR line from Exeter.

[Morello Cherry]

On 25/07/2024 at 21:50, adb968008 said:

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

 

A bit more au contraire :) 30053 got around quite a bit. Even ran on the SWML as well.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

A bit more au contraire :) 30053 got around quite a bit. Even ran on the SWML as well.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I rode behind 30053 on the mainline myself.

A number of Tank engines have had a moment of fame in preservation, inc Panniers, 2MT, 4MT etc but none of them, inc  30053 is a Jinty or a prarie.

 

I had fantastic runs with 5521 in Poland, 7298 did pretty good at Bromborough with 4566, and of course 5521 and Met no1 on LUL lines….

 

Something like a 51xx I could imagine being popular enough and powerful enough, but sadly I think the current industry mindsets would cost prevent it these days…indeed I doubt 30053 will ever go mainline again either and i’ll be amazed if the Gresley N2 groups pulls it off to wander freely along the network again.

 

Mainline steam just isnt about preservation and industry coming together for pleasure any more, its just about power, money, hidden in a blanket of risk. For tank engines its way too big a hill to climb, indeed even owners of bigger classes will find it harder to find a place as the mainline corporates consolidate and tighten up as industry regulation and network changes eat them.

 

Edited August 28 by adb968008

[Morello Cherry]

I am not sure what your point is? A praire has been out on the mainline, so has an autotank, 4MT and an M7 at various points in time.

If 50 years of preservation has taught us anything it is that there is nothing to stop anything from happening if there is a will and money to make it happen. If someone decides they want to take the N2, N7, Jinty or Caley tank mainline then there is nothing per se to stop it from happening.