Places where national rail shares a facility with a heritage railway

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, astropsidings said:

Going back to the original post, mention has been made of Didcot which might be the nearest thing to this, particularly as all traffic is tripped in across the national network. Is the coal the last to be carried on the national network?

If it isn’t yet I assume it eventually could be.

 

17 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

Interestingly, according to this months Trackside mag, they're getting connected now HS2 has seen off the route between the 2 sides of the operation.

So is the freight line closing completely then? I thought the original plan to make it part of East-West Rail (to provide through Aylesbury to Milton Keynes trains) was being postponed/cancelled but didn’t realise it was being got rid of completely.

 

This seems to give more information but is a bit confusing: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/hs2-freight-deliveries-to-a-town-without-a-railway-station-40760/

 

Edit: maybe I could do another thread on this if it’s of interest? Arguably it’s wildly off-topic for this thread but still an interesting topic.

Edited July 22 by 009 micro modeller

[KeithMacdonald]

The Swanage Railway (steam and diesel heritage) connected to the mainline at Worgret Junction and ran to Wareham ... for a while.
 

Quote

 

The Swanage Railway has withdrawn its plans for a train service to connect Swanage with the mainline at Wareham. Trial services ran in 2017 and 2023 and saw a train service connect Swanage and Wareham via the mainline connection at Worgret Junction. Frank Roberts, chairman of the Swanage Railway Trust, says that whilst the trials were operationally a success, they did not deliver commercially.

 

 

But a while is long enough for us.

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/swanage-railway-withdraws-plans-for-wareham-train-service.htm

 

Steam

https://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/locomotives-stock/category/steam-locomotives

 

and diesel

https://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/locomotives-stock/category/diesel-locomotives

 

Wareham station has plenty of sidings and buildings to suit?

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

On 22/07/2024 at 00:38, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Oh! Nice one. Perhaps with a fully restored connecton all the way to the Kent & East Sussex at Tenterden?

Robertsbridge has a turntable (ex Hither Green) on the RVR side and the hope is to service steam locos off mainline charters, as I understand it.

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Robertsbridge has a turntable (ex Hither Green) on the RVR side and the hope is to service steam locos off mainline charters, as I understand it.

 

Thanks @Tom Burnham for reminding me about the turntable. Here it is modelled with the current track layout, which is visible (with the turntable) on their news page.

 

https://www.rvr.org.uk/news/

 

[25kV]

For a couple of "what ifs":

 

* One could imagine that Steamport Southport survived, and the adjacent goods/coal yard became a Merseyrail stabling point.

 

* Alternatively, using somewhere like Wigan Springs Branch as inspiration, where the old steam shed survived alongside the newer diesel depot for a number of years - perhaps the steam shed became a heritage centre while the diesel depot continued to service mainline locos. 

 

Here's a photo of Wigan from Flickr by Bob Avery (click to find out what the heck is going on here!), with the WCML in the foreground.  Flip the location of the old and new sheds and you could also have a situation where the heritage side heads off along a branch line.

 

 

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, 25kV said:

you could also have a situation where the heritage side heads off along a branch line.

 

 

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

[Fredo]

Hi, The Science and Industry Museum in Manchester was disconnected from the main line a few years ago after Network Rail reconfigured one of their lines. Fred

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, The Science and Industry Museum in Manchester was disconnected from the main line a few years ago after Network Rail reconfigured one of their lines. wasted millions building a new viaduct to connect Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly but the Governement withdrew funding to improve the Oxford Road corridor making it a white elephant.

Fred

Fixed it for you.

 

Hmm, you couldn't make that up and then they only go and do it again to Manchester with HS2, promising a new line and then cutting it short at our expense.

[Morello Cherry]

So basically we have:

 

• Shared station sites but different platforms ie Alton, Bodmin with connection,  Cholsey, Blaenau Ffestiniog without a connection, Aberystwyth
• Shared platforms - Wareham (theoretically), Alton in the early years when p2 was used, Matlock (?), Eridge (?), Whitby(?)
• Connected but not shared stations ie East Grinstead, Totnes, Paignton, SVR
• Shared station sites where one half has some kind of facility. ie Bodmin, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Aberystwyth, SVR
• Professional Heritage depots (not open to the public in space shared with NR) - Carnforth, Southall, Tyseley
• Contract companies that use heritage equipment - ie Burton on Trent, Leicester.
• Professional sites on preserved lines that do contract work for others including potentially mainline companies - Bo'ness, Briddons are two that spring to mind.
• Sites on NR that do some professional heritage restoration - Eastleigh, St Leonards
• Sites on NR that do some contract work for preserved railways - I seem to recall reading of Ilford doing some wheel turning for the NNR.
• Preserved depots on or next to NR sites - Didcot, Yeovil spring to mind, others such as old Steamtown era Carnforth, Dinting.

The nearest contemporary place I can think of where you would find NR and Heritages mixed together are: Barrow Hill and Didcot. Didcot NR normally has stuff stabled there so while not a full depot, and obviously segregated from Didcot heritage.

 

Here you can see - NR station to the right, NR yard with stabled locos in the middle and then the Railway centre to the left.

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/didcot-departure-43195-in-virgin-livery-2001-departs-didcot-copyright-phil-shattered-smith_orig.jpg

 

Essentially, while you are unlikely to find a shared site + shared depot, there are enough combinations and permutations for you to find something that floats your boat.

 

I am also sure that I have seen reference in connection to 35005 to volunteers working down at Eastleigh. edit - link to blog - https://locoyard.com/2013/10/16/simons-journey-into-the-world-of-volunteering-entry-2/

 

 

Edited July 28 by Morello Cherry

[Bulleidnutter]

On 20/07/2024 at 10:31, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

 

 

On 20/07/2024 at 12:53, phil-b259 said:

 

But doe either of these activities occur on a daily basis? I can't imagine the SVR routinely employs a signalman at Kidderminster 24/7 daily for example so locos can come and go from the national network as they please.

 

There is a significant difference between an 'occasional use' setup (be it for testing, short / long term storage / charters / loco exchanges / etc) and daily use. The former is much more in keeping with how a Heritage railway operates where lots of the staff are volunteers and most employed staff will work what we might call 'normal' (ish) hours so people have to be got in specially to facilitate moves to / from the national network rather than the facility to do so being permanently available.

 

 

 

 

Actually Kidderminster TMD has its own TOPS code. During the last winter period we housed Rail adventure and their barrier wagons, all of which were out 3 or 4 times a week. GBRF hired Class 50s, D1015, Class 20s. There was/ is a contract for HST power cars to be brought to the SVR facility to have batteries and other components changed. Test runs and then exported to Mexico. Rail adventure have had other HST power cars stabled on our depot between duties. 

We dont "employ" a signalman. We have on call ground frame operators that are available to open the box to NR. 

[Morello Cherry]

The preserved 4-VEP is being stored/restored at Strawberry Hill, so I assume that NR and SWR are ok with the SETG working on it as volunteers(?) on an NR/SWR site . Photos at the end of the story.

 

https://www.setg.org.uk/4vep-returning-to-traffic-in-2024-with-new-fundraising-appeal/

[Hal Nail]

15 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

So basically we have:

 

• Shared station sites but different platforms ie Alton, Bodmin with connection,  Cholsey, Blaenau Ffestiniog without a connection, Aberystwyth
• Shared platforms - Wareham (theoretically), Alton in the early years when p2 was used, Matlock (?), Eridge (?)

Pretty good summary!

 

Eridge has the old down platform dedicated to the Spa Valley with both faces in use by the preserved line. Mainline trains in either direction use the inside face of the old up platform. I'm not sure if the two lines are actually connected - I think they just run alongside each other in parallel. At Alton an island platform is shared with the outer face (3) for preserved trains. Mainline trains can access the Midhants line via their inside face (2) but they can't run directly into the preserved platform.

 

Last time I was at Eastleigh the Midhants had their own hut inside the shed, although Can Pac's chassis has finally gone back to Ropley now.

Edited July 29 by Hal Nail

[Fredo]

Thanks woodenhead

[Morello Cherry]

On 25/07/2024 at 20:50, adb968008 said:

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

 

Au contraire they did :) albeit a long time ago

 

See here for more images -

 

[Morello Cherry]

This month's Modern Railways throws out a couple of good examples.

 

There is an article about how the new Austrian built Colas Tampers had their shake down tests at the SVR.

 

Opposite that there is a big advert for the GBRF Peterborough Depot open day/NVR diesel gala, including 08s on the Fletton branch.

 

I was at East Grinstead recently and I did think that it would make a good prototype for modelling in a restricted space as the site/connection is long and narrow. 2 platform NR station, the connection is used as a stabling point by Southern, the Bluebell is a single platform and loop with the NR connection behind the platform. Whereas say Alton or Bodmin would need a much wider space with 3 platforms, run round plus associated sidings/depot.

 

One other thing, I suspect you would be unlikely to find a preserved railway with its main steam depot/works at the end of the line connecting to NR simply because the vast majority of preserved line extended to a BR station rather than from a BR station. It's not like the WSR started in Taunton (or Norton Fitzwarren) and extended to Minehead. So preserved railway depot facilities tend to be found at the opposite end of the line to the BR end. 

Also, at most BR sites the old goods or engine sheds have been either turned into station car parks, or demolished for housing, so there often isn't space. I suspect that if the SVR were extending to Kiddie now that the old coal yard would not be free, vacant and available for a whole new 3 platform station to be built. East Grinstead is pretty basic as a station because there just isn't the room - station car parks, and that the old High Level station space is now a supermarket.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Thanks to @Morello Cherry for mentioning East Grinstead, which does have possibilities.

BR/NR on the high level, Bluebell heritage on the low level, but joined together via that goods yard.

Perhaps even some narrow gauge in the timber yard? At least, I'm assuming that's what is shown top right of this screen grab.

Does anyone know?

Ref: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=51.12634&lon=-0.01519&layers=258&b=1&o=100&marker=51.128611,-0.014444

 

[Morello Cherry]

If you were going pre-1939 where there would be mixed facilities then I suspect more narrow gauge/standard gauge exchanges would have facilities for both. Welshpool, Blaenau Ffestiniog (were there facilities for standard gauge there?), Barnstaple/Pilton, Aberystwyth.

 

Nearer to the OPs original post would loco hauled diesel era Aberystwyth count as heritage (BR blue VOR) and NR?

[KeithMacdonald]

Yes, Barnstaple Town Quay would be a nice mix of narrow and standard gauge. The level crossing at one end and the swing bridge at the other would make good scenic breaks.

 

[Morello Cherry]

22 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Yes, Barnstaple Town Quay would be a nice mix of narrow and standard gauge. The level crossing at one end and the swing bridge at the other would make good scenic breaks.

 

 

A good rule one. The L&B survives until the 1950s (a la Welshpool and Llanfair) and Barnstaple becomes the Blaenau Ffestiniog of Devon.

If you want to go further in terms of an alternative universe that might be nearer what the OP wanted, I remember reading (I think Robin Moira White) that at the time of the formation of the WSR that there was a proposal to open the Ilfracombe branch. So an alternative universe where the L&B runs into Barnstaple, the standard gauge heritage line from Ilfracombe connects and the NR line from Exeter.

[Morello Cherry]

On 25/07/2024 at 21:50, adb968008 said:

Bickershaw branch could fit the branch line.

 

Meanwhile 7298 was doing its Rainhill dash in 1980 I presume.

 

Pity things like a Jinty, or a GWR 2-6-2T have never had a mainline chance for passengers.. unlikely ever to happen now,  closest would be 7298/4566 at Bromborough, or 5521 on LUL or Poland.

 

A bit more au contraire :) 30053 got around quite a bit. Even ran on the SWML as well.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morello Cherry]

I am not sure what your point is? A praire has been out on the mainline, so has an autotank, 4MT and an M7 at various points in time.

If 50 years of preservation has taught us anything it is that there is nothing to stop anything from happening if there is a will and money to make it happen. If someone decides they want to take the N2, N7, Jinty or Caley tank mainline then there is nothing per se to stop it from happening.
 

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

I am not sure what your point is? A praire has been out on the mainline, so has an autotank, 4MT and an M7 at various points in time.

If 50 years of preservation has taught us anything it is that there is nothing to stop anything from happening if there is a will and money to make it happen. If someone decides they want to take the N2, N7, Jinty or Caley tank mainline then there is nothing per se to stop it from happening.
 

The point is that mainline preservation services are now in the hands of a few rich people and the obstacles to other locos being mainline certfied are getting harder.

 

But if someone can make a railtour out of old Pacers. then I guess it remains never say never.

Edited August 28 by woodenhead

[Morello Cherry]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The point is that mainline preservation services are now in the hands of a few rich people and the obstacles to other locos being mainline certfied are getting harder.

 

But if someone can make a railtour out of old Pacers. then I guess it remains never say never.

 

Well if a rich person wants to take a tank loco mainline then they can knock themselves out. Who'd have thought 5 years ago that 34007 would be going mainline after its next overhaul? So there is nothing to stop someone saying I want to restore 80100 and take it mainline, or giving the F5 or G5 projects the money to do it.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure what your point was posting a picture of an M7 in response to a point about a Jinty and a Prairie..

 

an M7 isnt a Jinty or a Prarie.

 

Agreed if money, regulation, and network objections were overcome, and an operator was willing to do it.. it could happen… indeed Aliens can land too… but the odds are approaching similar numbers either on a prarie, jinty on the mainline or aliens landing.

 

Mainline steam has been on the slide since c2013, this year feels much like the 1980’s and the SLOA days… heavy barriers, limited locos, few tours, set routes and limited mileage but with added inflation… lets face it mainline steam for the common enthusiast  is becoming a thing of the past.

 

 

 

 

Because an M7 is 2P tank engine ie similar power range to a Jinty and you said 'things like a Jinty or Prairie'.

You said a Prairie hadn't gone mainline when one had. I am pretty certain that a 61xx is a Prairie.
 

But the reality is that even for most preserved lines a Jinty is underpowered and low priority, out of 10 only 2 are operational and the SVR, KWVR and GCR locos are all sitting on display. Which tells you a lot about their appeal to railway operators.

You keep on saying this about mainline steam with very little evidence to support your claims.

Edited August 28 by Morello Cherry

[woodenhead]

Regardless of what happened in the past, today's steam railtours have very little to do with the average enthusiast and everything to do with making money.

 

You cannot just rock up with your M7 and some coaches

 

This is from 2019:

Source: https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/steam-on-the-main-line-the-return/

[Morello Cherry]

52 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Regardless of what happened in the past, today's steam railtours have very little to do with the average enthusiast and everything to do with making money.

 

You cannot just rock up with your M7 and some coaches

 

This is from 2019:

Source: https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/steam-on-the-main-line-the-return/

 

I doubt that even in 1995 they just rocked up with the M7 and 5 coaches and ran the service on the swml.

 

I see nothing in the 2019 guidelines that say 'no small tank engines on the mainline'.

 

Complaining that it is a rich person's game is tilting at windmills.

 

Even a day out with family at a heritage line is going to set you back three figures. Even that said I doubt any heritage operator is getting rich from it, maybe just less poor less quickly. 

 

But with Oasis and Blur reforming. a labour government so 90s revivals are in full swing so who knows :)

 

 

 

Edited August 28 by Morello Cherry