Are 'WW2/1940s' events the only pull that heritage railways have to get bums on seats these days?

[whart57]

Councils won't, or can't, pay for a band to play. A summer programme requires a county's worth of bands whose players incur significant travel costs. Bands also require instruments which aren't cheap and if they want to improve they need professional direction. Simply put, bands can't lay on Summer Sunday concerts for free. 

 

Covid also took its toll.

[Morello Cherry]

On 22/07/2024 at 15:32, Nearholmer said:

As regards WW2/1940s reenactment at heritage railways: there’s something about it that leaves me uncomfortable, so I don’t go to them. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it seems part and parcel of a sort of  “golden age myth” that has grown-up around the period, the gradual deification of Churchill (consider how popular he was come 1945!), the same thing that spawns endless tacky jigsaw puzzles showing spitfires flying over perfect cottage gardens, and a sort of obstinate refusal to admit that there is anything good about modern Britain, modernity in general come to that, while making out that a certain part of the past was paradisiacal. At best, it only portrays a very tiny slice of the 1940s, and at worst it’s probably like a fair bit else at heritage railways: misleading, if you take it too literally and don’t try to get a better grasp of real reality.

 

 

 

 

On 22/07/2024 at 15:34, jjb1970 said:

This is one of those topics which seems to get people talking at eachother rather than engaging in real discussion.

 

Nobody has to like anything, nor approve of anything. However that dislike or disapproval is not in itself a reason why others should be prevented from doing something.  And if there is a market for it then a preserved railway or museum is at liberty to serve demand.

 

Equally, just because we like something doesn't mean anyone else will and nobody is obligated to share our own interests or likes.

 

So many arguments seem grounded in a lack of acceptance that our likes and dislikes do not represent everyone else's likes and dislikes. 

 

I have already said WW2 reenactments aren't my thing. I dislike the idea for several reasons, but it's not for me to prevent others enjoying whatever they enjoy. And if such events make a healthy profit then those of us who avoid them benefit from them helping the preserved railway or museums bottom line.

 

 

The war cult in the UK is IMO rather disturbing, channels such as Yesterday seem to be pretty much WW2 24/7, and UK TV history could easily have been renamed UK TV Hitler since that was all they ever talked about.

 

Implicit and often explicit is the idea that if you aren't down for this that you are i) unpatriotic and ii) insulting the memory of the dead. Which is an uncomfortable position for people to find themselves in.

 

I have an issue in that it is often the only bit of historical re-enactment that is ever done and it is only done in a certain way. It is almost quasi-religious, you have to dress up,  you have to have certain music, the Spitfire flypast.

 

It is also about forgetting, it is a very one sided memory of war. I was minded today about how much Ukrainian I heard in the street and the fact that they are refugees from war who can't and may never be able to go home. One of my friends her partner is in the army, she has children and gave birth to her baby during an air raid. When she posts on social media it is always with fear - fear of the next raid, fear of the call that something has happened to her partner, her brothers, her parents, her friends.

 

When I hear Ukrainian being spoken in the street and shops it is single women, it is groups of women, it is women and children. The men...

 

I find when there are so many people who are currently refugees from war (whether that is Ukraine, Syria, Gaza) distasteful to have a 'let's celebrate war as a load of jolly japes and a sing along and wrap ourselves in the warm embrace of the flag'. Ignoring that it is actually a really horrible experience whether you are on the front line, a refugee or a home.

 

I get that lines need to put bums on seats, I just wish there was another way to do so. Incidentally it only ever seems to be standard gauge lines that do them. Maybe I have missed it but I don't recall any of say the Welsh narrow gauge lines ever doing it, so if they can get by without it, it makes me wonder if they are really as necessary as made out.

[jjb1970]

I think people are interested in war for many reasons.

 

Even as a bit of a pacifist I have a great interest in the machinery of war. Rightly or wrongly war has always been an engine to drive scientific and engineering progress and some of our most impressive technical achievements have been engines of war. 

 

As a subject of study, if we are interested in history then war is a huge part of that history. Ditto for people interested in policy and diplomacy, the oft quoted dictum of Clausewitz that war is a continuation of politics by other means is not universally true but it tends to be so for the modern conception of a nation state. At a human level, war has often shaped societies, even this thread shows the lingering influence on cultural life in Britain of WW2.

 

I get the interest in war and WW2, and really have no issue with that. I'll admit I have a deep interest in WW2 history. And I can understand why some who go through war look back on their experiences and find positives. For many it may have been the only time in their lives they really felt their lives had any purpose or meaning, it may have been the only time when they experienced a communal spirit and sense of national unity. If we look at WW1 it's interesting that although now we see it as senseless slaughter (which personally I think it was), after WW1 a lot of veterans saw it somewhat differently.

 

So for preserved railways, if there's a demand for WW2 nostalgia I really don't blame them for exploiting it, and regardless of what I feel about it all I have no desire to rain on anyone else's day out or impose my own ideas on anyone else. If anything I'd probably criticise them for not exploiting an obvious opportunity to get more people through the gates and improve their bottom line.

 

My discomfort is the selective remembrance of war and how it is used to shape modern discourse and maintain the validity of war as an extension of politics by other means. Which may be why WW2 is the one which gets excessive attention in popular culture and politics. WW2 was quite unusual in that the enemy we fought did represent something truly evil, and defeating that evil did make a difference. That has led it to be presented as a war between those fighting for freedom against a vile racist ideology of genocide. Which is where things go pear shaped as the fact that national socialist Germany was evil doesn't make European empires and the fact that Britain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands were ruling huge empires go away or that we allied with a country which was arguably no better than national socialist Germany (and was the country which did most to destroy the German army at hideous cost to itself). It's a war people feel they can look back on with pride as having saved the world using selective memory and ignore the large swaths of our own history which leave no cause for pride. Perhaps more insidiously, we have a culture (and this is certainly not unique to Britain, it's pervasive in Europe and North America) which leaps to compare the next villain of the moment we don't like as the new incarnation of that naughty frustrated painter from Austria and whereby it would be immoral not to destroy them. I think there have been people and events who can rightly be compared with national socialism, unfortunately quite a few of them are largely ignored because they committed by those batting for the 'right' side in a geopolitical game. Once politics and war become good vs. evil it precludes diplomacy and negotiated settlement, you can't appease evil, (insert name of a foreign leader) is the new H*tler etc etc. Which is why I feel queasy at how WW2 is remembered and used in popular culture and politics. WW2 events at preserved railways are an almost insignificant manifestation of a much deeper issue with how that period is remembered and used in contemporary politics and culture.

[Nearholmer]

5 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

The war cult in the UK is IMO rather disturbing

Indeed. A proportion of the population seems weirdly obsessed with it, and there is definitely a creeping politicisation of war-remembrance, indeed a sort of insidious politicisation of nostalgia to some degree.
 

There’s a  “package” of things that a particular wing of politics is seeking to “claim as its own”, which includes the union flag, WW2 remembrance, Churchill hagiography, ownership of the narrative around the history presented at national trust sites so as to exclude certain bits, etc. Yesterday I even saw on Facebook a flagrant attempt to “own” a town centre classic car rally in a politicised, jingoistic way way, although that fell flat on its face due to people in the comments pointing out how unreliable, rust-prone, and Haynes-manual-intensive the average ‘Great British Motor’ of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was!

 

The whole thing is linked to the creation of a frankly racist “everything was glorious before Windrush, which represents the start of decline” narrative, which stinks like a pile of rotting offal.

 

 

[rodent279]

5 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

 

 

The war cult in the UK is IMO rather disturbing, channels such as Yesterday seem to be pretty much WW2 24/7, and UK TV history could easily have been renamed UK TV Hitler since that was all they ever talked about.

 

Implicit and often explicit is the idea that if you aren't down for this that you are i) unpatriotic and ii) insulting the memory of the dead. Which is an uncomfortable position for people to find themselves in.

 

I have an issue in that it is often the only bit of historical re-enactment that is ever done and it is only done in a certain way. It is almost quasi-religious, you have to dress up,  you have to have certain music, the Spitfire flypast.

 

It is also about forgetting, it is a very one sided memory of war. I was minded today about how much Ukrainian I heard in the street and the fact that they are refugees from war who can't and may never be able to go home. One of my friends her partner is in the army, she has children and gave birth to her baby during an air raid. When she posts on social media it is always with fear - fear of the next raid, fear of the call that something has happened to her partner, her brothers, her parents, her friends.

 

When I hear Ukrainian being spoken in the street and shops it is single women, it is groups of women, it is women and children. The men...

 

I find when there are so many people who are currently refugees from war (whether that is Ukraine, Syria, Gaza) distasteful to have a 'let's celebrate war as a load of jolly japes and a sing along and wrap ourselves in the warm embrace of the flag'. Ignoring that it is actually a really horrible experience whether you are on the front line, a refugee or a home.

 

I get that lines need to put bums on seats, I just wish there was another way to do so. Incidentally it only ever seems to be standard gauge lines that do them. Maybe I have missed it but I don't recall any of say the Welsh narrow gauge lines ever doing it, so if they can get by without it, it makes me wonder if they are really as necessary as made out.

As I say, it somewhat unsettles me that in Britain we seem to wallow in fake nostalgia for the palatable bits of WW2, not remember the sacrifices,  and suffering, on all sides.

 

Regarding us Brits, we have been just as culpable for mass slaughter & destruction. I've just watched an interesting YouTube video about Edward III's devasting chevauchee across northern France in 1346, culminating in the battle of Crecy. Henry V did something similar 70 odd years later, besieging and ultimately taking Harfleur, nearly losing it all on a dash through France to Calais, and ultimately coming out victorious at Azincourt.

We certainly weren't the "nice guys" back then.

Edited July 25 by rodent279

[Rivercider]

On 23/07/2024 at 09:29, Nearholmer said:

How about hordes of young lads in uniform playing the part of sailors moving between ports to crew ships? Maybe about fifty lads with kitbags, playing cards, smoking, loudly bantering etc crowding into an already jam-packed carriage might add to the atmosphere.

In the late 1970s the 21.40 Bristol to Plymouth was quite good for that sort of atmosphere. Loco hauled short set of about three steam heat MK1s, dimly lit with steam leaking everywhere. Quite often there was a good complement of sailors returning to Devonport, or marines going to Lympstone, with kitbags blocking the corridors

 

cheers

Edited July 25 by Rivercider
Tidying up.

[Mallard60022]

23 hours ago, whart57 said:

Councils won't, or can't, pay for a band to play. A summer programme requires a county's worth of bands whose players incur significant travel costs. Bands also require instruments which aren't cheap and if they want to improve they need professional direction. Simply put, bands can't lay on Summer Sunday concerts for free. 

 

Covid also took its toll.

Nobody was suggesting Councils bought in Bands. The Cost of a 'Colliery' Band up here is covered by income from an event and or some input from the Council.

On a Heritage Railway that cost would be factored into the overall cost of the event as a one off at sometime. Fortunately in the North, Bands rarely have to travel far, are well managed, well Directed and win National competitions so aren't just some raggle - tag bunch.

They often provide a free service (or friendly drinks and refreshments) for something like a Remembrance Service.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think people are interested in war for many reasons.

 

Even as a bit of a pacifist I have a great interest in the machinery of war. Rightly or wrongly war has always been an engine to drive scientific and engineering progress and some of our most impressive technical achievements have been engines of war. 

 

As a subject of study, if we are interested in history then war is a huge part of that history. Ditto for people interested in policy and diplomacy, the oft quoted dictum of Clausewitz that war is a continuation of politics by other means is not universally true but it tends to be so for the modern conception of a nation state. At a human level, war has often shaped societies, even this thread shows the lingering influence on cultural life in Britain of WW2.

 

I get the interest in war and WW2, and really have no issue with that. I'll admit I have a deep interest in WW2 history. And I can understand why some who go through war look back on their experiences and find positives. For many it may have been the only time in their lives they really felt their lives had any purpose or meaning, it may have been the only time when they experienced a communal spirit and sense of national unity. If we look at WW1 it's interesting that although now we see it as senseless slaughter (which personally I think it was), after WW1 a lot of veterans saw it somewhat differently.

 

So for preserved railways, if there's a demand for WW2 nostalgia I really don't blame them for exploiting it, and regardless of what I feel about it all I have no desire to rain on anyone else's day out or impose my own ideas on anyone else. If anything I'd probably criticise them for not exploiting an obvious opportunity to get more people through the gates and improve their bottom line.

 

My discomfort is the selective remembrance of war and how it is used to shape modern discourse and maintain the validity of war as an extension of politics by other means. Which may be why WW2 is the one which gets excessive attention in popular culture and politics. WW2 was quite unusual in that the enemy we fought did represent something truly evil, and defeating that evil did make a difference. That has led it to be presented as a war between those fighting for freedom against a vile racist ideology of genocide. Which is where things go pear shaped as the fact that national socialist Germany was evil doesn't make European empires and the fact that Britain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands were ruling huge empires go away or that we allied with a country which was arguably no better than national socialist Germany (and was the country which did most to destroy the German army at hideous cost to itself). It's a war people feel they can look back on with pride as having saved the world using selective memory and ignore the large swaths of our own history which leave no cause for pride. Perhaps more insidiously, we have a culture (and this is certainly not unique to Britain, it's pervasive in Europe and North America) which leaps to compare the next villain of the moment we don't like as the new incarnation of that naughty frustrated painter from Austria and whereby it would be immoral not to destroy them. I think there have been people and events who can rightly be compared with national socialism, unfortunately quite a few of them are largely ignored because they committed by those batting for the 'right' side in a geopolitical game. Once politics and war become good vs. evil it precludes diplomacy and negotiated settlement, you can't appease evil, (insert name of a foreign leader) is the new H*tler etc etc. Which is why I feel queasy at how WW2 is remembered and used in popular culture and politics. WW2 events at preserved railways are an almost insignificant manifestation of a much deeper issue with how that period is remembered and used in contemporary politics and culture.

Class comments. Thank you.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Indeed. A proportion of the population seems weirdly obsessed with it, and there is definitely a creeping politicisation of war-remembrance, indeed a sort of insidious politicisation of nostalgia to some degree.
 

There’s a  “package” of things that a particular wing of politics is seeking to “claim as its own”, which includes the union flag, WW2 remembrance, Churchill hagiography, ownership of the narrative around the history presented at national trust sites so as to exclude certain bits, etc. Yesterday I even saw on Facebook a flagrant attempt to “own” a town centre classic car rally in a politicised, jingoistic way way, although that fell flat on its face due to people in the comments pointing out how unreliable, rust-prone, and Haynes-manual-intensive the average ‘Great British Motor’ of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was!

 

The whole thing is linked to the creation of a frankly racist “everything was glorious before Windrush, which represents the start of decline” narrative, which stinks like a pile of rotting offal.

Again, class comments and thanks to you.

 

I believe that a Heritage Railway should concentrate on being just that and maybe celebrate its local heritage a lot more.

Going way back I think it was Andy or Phil said Toilets and Ice Cream for the Normals?

From my experience of working at Kingscote Station in the 90s, then the northern Terminus on the Bluebell and the Watercress as a general Litter Picking, people greeting dogsbody, yup, that was the priority for the 'Normals' along with 'what's happening?

Many heritage Lines often struggle to provide these things because the main volunteer base has little or no interest in the punters!

Phil

 

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The whole thing is linked to the creation of a frankly racist “everything was glorious before Windrush, which represents the start of decline” narrative, which stinks like a pile of rotting offal.

That's a completely out-of-the-blue, irrelevant to this discussion swing. Whilst there are certainly issues to the attitudes towards WWII attempting to engineer an accusation of racism about it out of nowhere is neither helpful or justified.

[Phil Parker]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The whole thing is linked to the creation of a frankly racist “everything was glorious before Windrush, which represents the start of decline” narrative, which stinks like a pile of rotting offal.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

That's a completely out-of-the-blue, irrelevant to this discussion swing. Whilst there are certainly issues to the attitudes towards WWII attempting to engineer an accusation of racism about it out of nowhere is neither helpful or justified.

 

Agreed. There is no need to inflame the thread. If this continues, it gets locked and people end up on moderation.

[whart57]

54 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Nobody was suggesting Councils bought in Bands. The Cost of a 'Colliery' Band up here is covered by income from an event and or some input from the Council.

On a Heritage Railway that cost would be factored into the overall cost of the event as a one off at sometime. Fortunately in the North, Bands rarely have to travel far, are well managed, well Directed and win National competitions so aren't just some raggle - tag bunch.

They often provide a free service (or friendly drinks and refreshments) for something like a Remembrance Service.

Phil

 

Music in public parks was paid for out of the Council's wider entertainments budget. I don't know what the rates are now but back in the day they were between £100 and £200 for one or two two hour stints on a Sunday afternoon. Given that a brass band has 25 or more players that was well below Musician Union rates, but they were a valuable contribution to an amateur band's funds. Typically a band would do five or six of these gigs over the summer, perhaps more, though going out every weekend generally causes discontent among the bands' players' partners.

 

Things changed from the mid 1970s onwards. In 1975 Wolverhampton hired a band to play in all three of its parks that had bandstands every weekend through June, July and August. By 1980 they only provided a full programme in West Park. Now, who knows. Or the park's disappeared. We did a regular gig in Newcastle under Lyme. That park is now the Tesco car pack I believe.

 

I moved South but picked up playing again before retiring for good in 2008. In the last ten years I was playing though we lost all our remaining council funded gigs. Not because of incompetence but simply because councils stopped putting them on. Councils won't even pay for someone on their staff to come and open things up or put out a few chairs. Maybe they will for the local high school band on a single occasion but when councils have no money left to do the vital stuff they won't spend on the nice to dos.

 

I presume you are aware that the best bands in the North are now professional outfits, the colliery or mill that supported them before having been replaced by a raft of commercial sponsors. Take those away however and the amateur set up is in no better health than it is in the Midlands or the South.

 

[whart57]

2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

In the late 1970s the 21.40 Bristol to Plymouth was quite good for that sort of atmosphere. Loco hauled short set of about three steam heat MK1s, dimly lit with steam leaking everywhere. Quite often there was a good complement of sailors returning to Devonport, or marines going to Lympstone, with kitbags blocking the corridors

 

cheers

 

I photographed this Thai navy special passing through the old station at Bang Sue in 2010. It had come up the Southern Line, so from the isthmus that ties Thailand to Malaysia and could have been heading for Bangkok or the base at Sattahip. 

 

 

Not a great picture but I was distracted by the loco movements of the train on the left. It had come up from Bangkok double-headed. The locos then uncoupled from the train and headed up the line to the diesel shed about a mile further on. Some 30-40 minutes later a different engine returned to take the train onward. It was a so-called "free train", one where Thai citizens didn't have to pay a fare, so presumably the SRT thought no fare, no customer service.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

That's a completely out-of-the-blue, irrelevant to this discussion swing. Whilst there are certainly issues to the attitudes towards WWII attempting to engineer an accusation of racism about it out of nowhere is neither helpful or justified.

 

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

Agreed. There is no need to inflame the thread. If this continues, it gets locked and people end up on moderation.

 

While not wanting to inflame matters there is a bit of a whiff of gammon around the way WWII is often re-enacted and I believe that it is healthy  to acknowledge this. If you want to see a sensitive depiction of past horrors then I think that Miniatur Wunderland points the way forward in it's dioramas.

[DCB]

54 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Music in public parks was paid for out of the Council's wider entertainments budget. I don't know what the rates are now but back in the day they were between £100 and £200 for one or two two hour stints on a Sunday afternoon. Given that a brass band has 25 or more players that was well below Musician Union rates, but they were a valuable contribution to an amateur band's funds. Typically a band would do five or six of these gigs over the summer, perhaps more, though going out every weekend generally causes discontent among the bands' players' partners.

 

Things changed from the mid 1970s onwards. In 1975 Wolverhampton hired a band to play in all three of its parks that had bandstands every weekend through June, July and August. By 1980 they only provided a full programme in West Park. Now, who knows. Or the park's disappeared. We did a regular gig in Newcastle under Lyme. That park is now the Tesco car pack I believe.

 

I moved South but picked up playing again before retiring for good in 2008. In the last ten years I was playing though we lost all our remaining council funded gigs. Not because of incompetence but simply because councils stopped putting them on. Councils won't even pay for someone on their staff to come and open things up or put out a few chairs. Maybe they will for the local high school band on a single occasion but when councils have no money left to do the vital stuff they won't spend on the nice to dos.

 

I presume you are aware that the best bands in the North are now professional outfits, the colliery or mill that supported them before having been replaced by a raft of commercial sponsors. Take those away however and the amateur set up is in no better health than it is in the Midlands or the South.

 

I wouldn't think a "Colliery" Band would add anything to a WW2 enactment.    They play to a select audience of Brass Band enthusiasts who rave if the Euphonium player hits a top D and bore the pants off anyone who is not a Brass Band enthusiast.

Grass roots bands Non Contesting not a full 25 member ensemble playing a program of quasi WW2 music would be more appealing, and I know this as we at Chedworth Silver Band ( chedworthsilverband@gmail.com   )are definitely not outstanding technically  but often get complemented on our program, this is in contrast to other bands we help and whose players help us.  Away from themed events we blatantly steal "Andree Rieu's" repertoire,   It is hard to get WW2 music which sounds "Right" to modern audiences, They only know the main themes/ chorus not the intro and verse.  WW2 was 85/79 years ago, It was UKs finest hour and has all been downhill since, 1966 excepted (Two world wars and one world cup  Doo Dah)  

Sadly many Band gigs dried up with Covid,  Fetes Flower shows  with 150 year histories ended, Fees, well we charge £200 for a nominal 2 hr gig, no reduction for less as its every bit as much hassle to do 10 minutes as 2 hrs.    We get £100 plus a bucket collection for a local "Bands in the Park" event from a local town council.     For longer events, Airshows etc, we often find more than one Band is engaged , Maybe you would need three to cover 10am -6 pm and even at £200 a pop that is a lot of passenger receipts effectively "Wasted"    A 4 or 6 piece ensemble playing Carols on't train for Mince Pie special  is a much better idea.

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Maybe I have missed it but I don't recall any of say the Welsh narrow gauge lines ever doing it, so if they can get by without it, it makes me wonder if they are really as necessary as made out.

Possibly because the key era for them to recreate is often the 1930s and earlier (when they were still open and carrying passengers), and in some cases they have more access to Victorian/Edwardian rolling stock and only had a relatively minor part in WW2 history.

 

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I can understand why some who go through war look back on their experiences and find positives. For many it may have been the only time in their lives they really felt their lives had any purpose or meaning, it may have been the only time when they experienced a communal spirit and sense of national unity.

I mentioned earlier the sessions that I do about WW2 as part of one of my museum jobs. One of the eyewitnesses for these describes feeling excited earlier in the war, in addition to the more obvious negative emotions that you’d expect.

 

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

So for preserved railways, if there's a demand for WW2 nostalgia I really don't blame them for exploiting it, and regardless of what I feel about it all I have no desire to rain on anyone else's day out or impose my own ideas on anyone else. If anything I'd probably criticise them for not exploiting an obvious opportunity to get more people through the gates and improve their bottom line.

Surely the point though is that it’s a bit irresponsible in situations where the organisation concerned is perceived to fill an educational role, or even more so when heritage education is a stated part of its charitable objectives (even if not explicitly linked to that particular event)?

[whart57]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

 

I wouldn't think a "Colliery" Band would add anything to a WW2 enactment.    They play to a select audience of Brass Band enthusiasts who rave if the Euphonium player hits a top D and bore the pants off anyone who is not a Brass Band enthusiast.

Grass roots bands Non Contesting not a full 25 member ensemble playing a program of quasi WW2 music would be more appealing, and I know this as we at Chedworth Silver Band ( chedworthsilverband@gmail.com   )are definitely not outstanding technically  but often get complemented on our program, this is in contrast to other bands we help and whose players help us.  Away from themed events we blatantly steal "Andree Rieu's" repertoire,   It is hard to get WW2 music which sounds "Right" to modern audiences, They only know the main themes/ chorus not the intro and verse.

 

 

Bill Gelderd was a Bass Trombonist with the Ted Heath Band (not the PM obviously) and quite heavily involved with brass bands in the South. He was a good arranger and arranged a number of Ted Heath numbers for Black Dyke. They were stunning. Bloody hard for the sort of players Gelderd mostly worked with but Dyke's virtuosos took to it like ducks to water. So it can be done, even without Euphonium top D's. Though I'd be more impressed by the Soprano Cornet player hitting something above a top A and holding it. Or getting to the end of the Dambusters March without suffering a heart attack.

 

I played in a ten piece ensemble for a while. That struck me as a very suitable format for a lot of the gigs around. Or for the repertoire of the 1940s and 50s. We had a very good arrangement of A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square, as an example. Trouble is a lot rests on the quality of the first cornet/trumpet and I wasn't really good enough for that but too often had to fill in.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 24/07/2024 at 10:00, whart57 said:

Councils won't, or can't, pay for a band to play. A summer programme requires a county's worth of bands whose players incur significant travel costs. Bands also require instruments which aren't cheap and if they want to improve they need professional direction. Simply put, bands can't lay on Summer Sunday concerts for free. 

 

Covid also took its toll.

I assumed the council only paid for the band stand itself.  Back in the day I remember seeing brass bands playing in band stands, at least in the North.  They would usually take collections in the form of a hat with a simple notice board and people who stopped to enoy the music would generally make nominal donations.  I thought the instruments were generally funded by the colliery or company whose name they took, and party by the musicians themslves who were largely amateurs playing instruments as a hobby.  There were local competitions with prize money.

[whart57]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

 

...... as we at Chedworth Silver Band ( chedworthsilverband@gmail.com   )

 

 

Sorry, I had to smile at this from your recruitment ad in 2022:

 

Numbers are good except the Cornet section.

 

'Twas ever thus

[whart57]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I assumed the council only paid for the band stand itself.  Back in the day I remember seeing brass bands playing in band stands, at least in the North.  They would usually take collections in the form of a hat with a simple notice board and people who stopped to enoy the music would generally make nominal donations.  I thought the instruments were generally funded by the colliery or company whose name they took, and party by the musicians themslves who were largely amateurs playing instruments as a hobby.  There were local competitions with prize money.

 

Usually bands provided the instruments. Back in the day the price of an instrument was beyond the means of a working man, even today the larger instruments can be worth more than the car the player drives to gigs in. Players in amateur bands often swap roles as well, moving from one instrument to another. You need a flugel horn - Gloria's instrument in Brassed Off - but few players specialise in that. The lower ranking amateur bands are also lucky if they have a specialist soprano cornet and not just someone giving it a go. In those circumstances you can't expect the player to provide the instrument. Or when you rebalance the middle of the band, moving players between back row cornet, horn and baritone. A lot of bands got Lottery funding 20 or 30 years ago to re-equip, which was very helpful.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

 

I wouldn't think a "Colliery" Band would add anything to a WW2 enactment.    They play to a select audience of Brass Band enthusiasts who rave if the Euphonium player hits a top D and bore the pants off anyone who is not a Brass Band enthusiast.

Grass roots bands Non Contesting not a full 25 member ensemble playing a program of quasi WW2 music would be more appealing, and I know this as we at Chedworth Silver Band ( chedworthsilverband@gmail.com   )are definitely not outstanding technically  but often get complemented on our program, this is in contrast to other bands we help and whose players help us.  Away from themed events we blatantly steal "Andree Rieu's" repertoire,   It is hard to get WW2 music which sounds "Right" to modern audiences, They only know the main themes/ chorus not the intro and verse.  WW2 was 85/79 years ago, It was UKs finest hour and has all been downhill since, 1966 excepted (Two world wars and one world cup  Doo Dah)  

Sadly many Band gigs dried up with Covid,  Fetes Flower shows  with 150 year histories ended, Fees, well we charge £200 for a nominal 2 hr gig, no reduction for less as its every bit as much hassle to do 10 minutes as 2 hrs.    We get £100 plus a bucket collection for a local "Bands in the Park" event from a local town council.     For longer events, Airshows etc, we often find more than one Band is engaged , Maybe you would need three to cover 10am -6 pm and even at £200 a pop that is a lot of passenger receipts effectively "Wasted"    A 4 or 6 piece ensemble playing Carols on't train for Mince Pie special  is a much better idea.

I didn't suggest the Bands would be doing 40s music.  I would also point out that our locals Bands have a damn good reputation and play at all sorts of events. If a Railway were doing an event of some sort to do with local history then there are several Railways that would welcome such Bands. I'm not sure that you have understood what we are talking about on here. 

P 

[Nearholmer]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

That's a completely out-of-the-blue, irrelevant to this discussion swing. Whilst there are certainly issues to the attitudes towards WWII attempting to engineer an accusation of racism about it out of nowhere is neither helpful or justified.

I only wish you were correct that it’s irrelevant, but I’m afraid that the deliberate politicisation of nostalgia is a very real, and potentially unpleasantly potent thing. I won’t post or link to examples, some of which include photos of preserved railways, I’m sure without their knowledge, because that really would be inflammatory.

I’m not accusing heritage railways, because they very clearly aren’t in that game, but as Neil says “there’s a bit of a whiff of gammon around the way WWII is often re-enacted”, and that’s something that needs to be guarded against. 

 

 

Edited July 25 by Nearholmer

[Reorte]

29 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I only wish you were correct that it’s irrelevant, but I’m afraid that the deliberate politicisation of nostalgia is a very real, and potentially unpleasantly potent thing. I won’t post or link to examples, some of which include photos of preserved railways, I’m sure without their knowledge, because that really would be inflammatory.

That's somewhat different from what you said.

[Nearholmer]

It’s meant to be the same thing phrased differently.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I only wish you were correct that it’s irrelevant, but I’m afraid that the deliberate politicisation of nostalgia is a very real, and potentially unpleasantly potent thing.

There is some research into ideas about ‘nostalgia’, and whether/how there can be ‘progressive nostalgia’ (i.e., pretty much the opposite of the sort of reactionary stuff you describe) being done in the museum sector, often in the context of ‘living museums’ like Beamish or the BCLM (which in terms of their presentation style are closer to heritage railways than other types of museum generally are).

[whart57]

If you're talking about nostalgia then perhaps make clear - to yourself if to no-one else - what you are nostalgic about. I can't imagine anyone is nostalgic about outside privies or ice on the inside of the windows of unheated bedrooms. Or the all-pervading damp in winter. Some may be nostalgic for drinking and eating is a fog of tobacco smoke but I'm not, or for the rasping sore throat the next morning even though you are a non-smoker.

 

I do feel nostalgic for my first car - a Morris Minor since you didn't ask - but I much prefer my automatic Skoda for anything over half an hour.

 

A lot of nostalgia is really for a lost youth but I think it's dangerous to get too nostalgic over past times. If you are nostalgic for a time when you knew your neighbours and everyone knew everybody then surely its better to ask why that isn't the case any more and try and do something about it. Rather than feel resentment at the changes over the years.