DCC powered van or bogie?

[BlackFivesMatter]

One of the advantages of DCc is, we are told, that you can run two trains on the same track.

 

Thinking about my retirement layout two thoughts come to mind - emulating gravity shunting at a terminus with no run round loop. The loco would go into a siding, the coach  would roll past. Brakes applied and loco couples up to the other end.

 

Alternative scenario is the slip-coach drops off the express, and under controlled braking eases into the station. Both could be replicated easily in DCC. Are there any facilities other than doing it myself (eek) to enable this? 

[John Isherwood]

44 minutes ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

One of the advantages of DCc is, we are told, that you can run two trains on the same track.

 

Thinking about my retirement layout two thoughts come to mind - emulating gravity shunting at a terminus with no run round loop. The loco would go into a siding, the coach  would roll past. Brakes applied and loco couples up to the other end.

 

Alternative scenario is the slip-coach drops off the express, and under controlled braking eases into the station. Both could be replicated easily in DCC. Are there any facilities other than doing it myself (eek) to enable this? 

 

Both of these scenarios can be easily reproduced with DC.

 

CJI.

[KingEdwardII]

23 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

Are there any facilities other than doing it myself (eek) to enable this? 

I think that the answer to this question is a simple "no" at least for UK models.

 

Motorising coaches and wagons is certainly possible - then adding DCC control to them also possible. However, at the present this is most certainly a DIY effort, from what I have read.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 13/07/2024 at 13:19, BlackFivesMatter said:

DCC powered van or bogie?

 

Are you aware of these ?

They were produced before DCC came into being, so they are DC, but it would be very easy to hard-wire a decoder into one.

Long out of production, but still coming up from time to time on ebay as this now, or at swapmeets etc

 

If you wanted to do the same using a coach, you could replace a bogie with a Tenshodo Spud or similar - also DC as supplied, but I think there's a discussion somewhere on here on how to  convert one, but a slightly more tricky job than the van..

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176468555261

[kevinlms]

Well these always these, the 34mm version with 14mm wheels, for say BR 1 bogies. If it's a pre-group GWR, get a quote for your prototype.

Not cheap, but they will work. Put your side frames on, add extra pick ups to the other bogie and DCC it.

 

http://www.steameramodels.com/bbeetle.htm

[jcm@gwr]

Alternatively, you could check out Replica Railways, they do/did powered chassis for various 

DMU's, you might find one with the right combination of wheelbase/wheel diameter/bogie

centres to match your chosen coach.

[009 micro modeller]

On 13/07/2024 at 13:19, BlackFivesMatter said:

One of the advantages of DCc is, we are told, that you can run two trains on the same track.

 

Thinking about my retirement layout two thoughts come to mind - emulating gravity shunting at a terminus with no run round loop. The loco would go into a siding, the coach  would roll past. Brakes applied and loco couples up to the other end.

 

Alternative scenario is the slip-coach drops off the express, and under controlled braking eases into the station. Both could be replicated easily in DCC. Are there any facilities other than doing it myself (eek) to enable this? 

Not sure if I’ve quite understood what you’re after, but after a lot of faffing about (and, incidentally, before moving onto the next round of faffing about, for other parts of the project not relevant to this thread) I have managed to motorise a wagon for my current micro layout project: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/178289-a-shunting-puzzle-with-a-twist-in-009-eventually/page/2/

 

 

The most successful one is the open wagon at the bottom of the page. The difficulty is getting the right wheelbase on the motor bogie, so I ended up getting them from Mark at Locosnstuff, made to the right wheelbase (or thereabouts). I’m not using DCC but I don’t see why you couldn’t.

 

One issue that I found is that motor bogies intended for use in double bogie locomotives or multiple unit cars (which I originally experimented with) don’t have the right mass/inertia when used in a small, 4-wheeled wagon, and adding loads of additional weight doesn’t necessarily help (or it does, but then creates other problems). This should hopefully be less of an issue if fitting to a bogie coach for slip coach operation.

[BlackFivesMatter]

I appreciate a powered chassis on a van for example could be used in a train and power the coach and van or freight vehicles in the train into the platform/yard and with the loco isolated in a siding both in DC or DCC. 

 

The slip coach would I imagine be difficult in DC unless the express ran past then a powered coach runs past into the station. I had thought that the actual separating of the coach from the train would require DCC.  

 

I realise it probably does require home built conversions, but wondered if that could be avoided from those who know more about DCC.  

[009 micro modeller]

16 minutes ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I appreciate a powered chassis on a van for example could be used in a train and power the coach and van or freight vehicles in the train into the platform/yard and with the loco isolated in a siding both in DC or DCC. 

 

The slip coach would I imagine be difficult in DC unless the express ran past then a powered coach runs past into the station. I had thought that the actual separating of the coach from the train would require DCC.  

 

I realise it probably does require home built conversions, but wondered if that could be avoided from those who know more about DCC.  

How do you envisage the coach being coupled (if at all) and then uncoupled during slipping?

[guzzler17]

2 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I had thought that the actual separating of the coach from the train would require DCC. 

 

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

How do you envisage the coach being coupled (if at all) and then uncoupled during slipping?

 

Many years ago, 1973 to be precise, there was an N gauge layout called Blackwell in the Railway Modeller.  It was just the top of the Lickey and the article explained how the un-banking of a train took place.

 

IIRC the rear of the last wagon and front of the banker didn't have couplers.  Both had a transparent piece of plastic glued across the buffers to prevent locking on the sharp off-scene curves.

 

The train "ascended" the bank and the banker dropped back, using a potentiometer, whilst the train continued off-scene to stop at the next isolating section.  The banker then changed lines to "return" to Bromsgrove.

 

This was all done on DC so similar mods to the stock will work with DCC (assuming the train loco and slip coach are not consisted).

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, guzzler17 said:

 

 

Many years ago, 1973 to be precise, there was an N gauge layout called Blackwell in the Railway Modeller.  It was just the top of the Lickey and the article explained how the un-banking of a train took place.

 

IIRC the rear of the last wagon and front of the banker didn't have couplers.  Both had a transparent piece of plastic glued across the buffers to prevent locking on the sharp off-scene curves.

 

The train "ascended" the bank and the banker dropped back, using a potentiometer, whilst the train continued off-scene to stop at the next isolating section.  The banker then changed lines to "return" to Bromsgrove.

 

This was all done on DC so similar mods to the stock will work with DCC (assuming the train loco and slip coach are not consisted).

I agree, I think ‘not coupling them in the first place’ is probably the solution.

[kevinlms]

12 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I agree, I think ‘not coupling them in the first place’ is probably the solution.

And prototypical too, because I believe that on Lickey, bankers were never coupled. Some gradients did couple bankers on, probably because of slight downgrades at some point and the last thing you wanted was a separation to the train!

[BlackFivesMatter]

I would have envisaged the powered coach not coupled but at a very slightly faster speed than the train, obviously reducing when "slipped". 

 

[Harlequin]

You could do both the slip and gravity run round with DCC controlled brakes rather than a powered bogie.

• Reasonably normal bogie with a few adaptations.
• Decoder in vehicle getting power from normal bogie pickups.
• Decoder controls two servos: One to disengage the coupling (for slipping) and the other to apply the brakes.
• Brakes implemented simply by wrapping a plastic strip or thread loosely around an axle one or more times and then tightening it by the servo. This should give quite progressive control and so you could feather the brakes like a slip coach guard and control the speed of gravity movements.
• Weight added to vehicle to give it increased momentum.

P.S. You can't do this with DC.

 

Edited July 16 by Harlequin

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

And prototypical too, because I believe that on Lickey, bankers were never coupled. Some gradients did couple bankers on, probably because of slight downgrades at some point and the last thing you wanted was a separation to the train!

Indeed, although I meant for slip coaches as well (where it wouldn’t be so prototypical).

[pH]

On 13/07/2024 at 05:19, BlackFivesMatter said:

Thinking about my retirement layout two thoughts come to mind - emulating gravity shunting at a terminus with no run round loop. The loco would go into a siding, the coach  would roll past. Brakes applied and loco couples up to the other end.

If you’ve not already seen it, here are links to Greenock MRC’s Inverboyndie layout, which features a gravity shunt:
 

Description:

http://greenockmrc.co.uk/inverboyndie1.html

 

Video:

https://youtu.be/H_vl_y9vvgA?feature=shared

 

[t-b-g]

The gravity shunt was done on an EM gauge layout of Wellington many years ago, well before DCC. The carriage had a motor bogie. The train loco propelled the carriages back onto an inclined siding. The carriage was isolated and the loco pulled away, then the carriage was driven back into the platform. It worked really well and was impressive to watch.

 

Slip coaches are another matter. If you start to work out how long a layout needs to be to do them justice, it rules out any of us who don't have barns or sports halls to build our layouts in. There is a working slip coach on the late Peter Denny's Buckingham Branch layout. This detaches at Grandborough Junction. The carriage isn't powered. It is just uncoupled with a ramp as the train goes through. It isn't very realistic as the carriage goes from train speed to a dead stop in about 5 inches, due to fairly stiff inside bearings. I wouldn't want to be on board!  

[dave75]

I considered this idea for reusing older favourite dc locos on DCC . Remove the gearing and a connection to the motor and away you go

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 13/07/2024 at 13:19, BlackFivesMatter said:

...emulating gravity shunting ... the slip-coach drops off the express, and under controlled braking eases into the station. Both could be replicated easily in DCC. Are there any facilities other than doing it myself (eek) to enable this? 

Heljan produced a BR MLV (class 128) with a centre motor all wheel drive mechanism which will do the job very simply inside a coach body. The standard Heljan 14mm dia wheelsets may be substituted for the 12mm dia (DMU size) wheelsets. Obviously there is the task of making the necessary arrangements to mount the coach body on the mechanism: copying the method on the original coach chassis seemed simplest to me.

 

For my own purposes I fitted it inside a full brake coach body: and the usual smooth operation with a DCC decoder on a Heljan centre motor mechanism would simply perform your two proposed applications.