Electric push bikes.

[JZ]

Couldn't find another thread, so here goes.

On the point of retirement, officially this coming Saturday, but actually worked my last day last week. Thinking about getting an electric bike. Where I live there are plenty of miles of cycle tracks, but the pain in the backside bit is the last 150' climb in the last ¼ mile. I do already have a mountain bike, but it has seen little use in the last ten years, so the plan with this is to get it back to scratch and keep at at my son's house, he lives at the Bath end of the Bath-Bristol cycle track and use it the take the Granddaughters out. On my last few weeks on the job, I would ask questions of people that boarded with e-bikes and in general, they were enthusiastic about their own bikes. These varied in price between £1.7k and £3.5k. I have visited a specialist in Bath, but despite saying my budget was around £2k, kept showing me bikes in the £6k bracket. Now, I have had a chat with my older brother, his was a kit to attach to an existing bike and he is still happy with it after ten years use. I know there are some out there in the £500-£1000 bracket. Are they any good?

 

So, opinions and experience please.

[DIW]

Have a look at @big jim's  'getting fit' thread, he has written a lot about the virtues of the e-bike. (Hopefully he'll have something to add here for you)

[Ian Smeeton]

I have had a Carrera Subway e-bike for the last two years. Halfords, about £1100

 

I use it to commute the 7.5 miles to and from work.

 

I only have one Steep hill on the way home from work, which gets to its steepest point close to the top.

 

The e-bike copes very well with it.

 

In 14 months of cycling on a 50 year old 5 speed Falcon, I only managed to get up this hill twice without stoppping.

 

Once, with a force 7 westerly following wind, and once after about 4 pints in the pub at the bottom of the hill. Probably about the same amount of wind!

 

Range is quoted at 30 miles, which it  might do on 'economy' but I have it in 'Turbo' mode. I can usually do a 'there and back' without charging, but there is not a lot left after 15 miles.

 

It assists up to 15.5mph, after that you are on your own.

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

 

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, Ian Smeeton said:

 

It assists up to 15.5mph, after that you are on your own.

 

 

 

That is deliberate - Under UK law once a e-bike is able to go faster than 15.5mph by itself (i.e. without the rider pedalling or gravity helping on downhill gradients) then it is no longer classed as a bicycle and effectively becomes an electric Moped (with all the legal baggage that class of vehicle brings) or an e-scouter (which are illegal to use on the public land / public rights of way)

 

see https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Edited July 11 by phil-b259

[leavesontheline]

2 hours ago, JZ said:

Couldn't find another thread, so here goes.

On the point of retirement, officially this coming Saturday, but actually worked my last day last week. Thinking about getting an electric bike. Where I live there are plenty of miles of cycle tracks, but the pain in the backside bit is the last 150' climb in the last ¼ mile. I do already have a mountain bike, but it has seen little use in the last ten years, so the plan with this is to get it back to scratch and keep at at my son's house, he lives at the Bath end of the Bath-Bristol cycle track and use it the take the Granddaughters out. On my last few weeks on the job, I would ask questions of people that boarded with e-bikes and in general, they were enthusiastic about their own bikes. These varied in price between £1.7k and £3.5k. I have visited a specialist in Bath, but despite saying my budget was around £2k, kept showing me bikes in the £6k bracket. Now, I have had a chat with my older brother, his was a kit to attach to an existing bike and he is still happy with it after ten years use. I know there are some out there in the £500-£1000 bracket. Are they any good?

 

So, opinions and experience please.

 

I'm afraid I can't give you experience as all my bikes are currently leg powered but I do know about the products out there so can give you my opinion! I also know that there are others on here who do have lots of experience.

 

If you wanted to convert an existing bike with a kit there is a bewildering choice from eBay, Amazon, AliExpress and so on and some of these might be very good, some of them might be dangerous, some of them will be illegal to use on a public road without a license! So I think if you are not already into bikes and/or willing to tinker and take a risk with one of these 'cheap' kits then there are somewhat lower risk and better known options out there like 'Swytch'. Again I have no experience myself and don't personally know anyone who has but I have read good things about them. I think 'early adopters' did experience some teething troubles but the company has been around long enough now that they seem to have built up a good reputation for what they do. You obviously pay more but will benefit from customer support, warranty etc and you'd hope better quality batteries, motors etc.

 

All of these kits generally entail changing your front wheel (and fitting sensors, battery, display etc) and on an old mountain bike, for example, most people probably aren't bothered about having mis-matching wheels! If you had an existing bike you wanted to use and wanted the minimum spend, then one of these kits would probably be the way to go. However, it sounds like you already have a use for your existing bike so I don't think that I personally would buy a 'normal' bike (new or second-hand) just to fit a conversion kit to. I think with a budget of £2K you should be able to get a decent ebike off the peg as prices are coming down gradually and there is always the second hand market, where if you have a known brand for which things like replacement batteries are readily available, shouldn't be a problem. I am sure that lots of the ebike shops also deal in second hand and offer some level of warranty or guarantee.

 

You probably already know, but in the UK you are limited to 'pedal assist' up to 15.5mph (and 250Watts) and no more. Any kit (or e-bike) that goes above this or includes a throttle control would not fall within the rules for a 'pedelec' and so cannot still be considered a bicycle, but a motorised vehicle, subject to tax, insurance, license etc etc. Because it is perfectly legal to sell kits and ebikes that are not 'road-legal', for off-road use, you obviously still do see a lot of these bikes (and scooters) in use on our roads and pavements. The whole industry and legislation needs modernising though because these 'illegal' machines have on the one hand surely got to be better than someone driving around in a huge SUV, but on the other hand its all fun and games until someone gets hurt, or damage to property is done ....... 

 

Maybe you just need to try a better ebike shop? I guess Bath is generally quite pricey anyway! There seem to be dedicated ebike shops popping up all over these days. I know there is one in Weston Super Mare, that I have been to, and am aware of another in Bristol. It potentially a big investment so why not shop around until you find a retailer and product you are happy with?

Edited July 11 by leavesontheline
typo!

[Bernard Lamb]

14 hours ago, JZ said:

Now, I have had a chat with my older brother, his was a kit to attach to an existing bike and he is still happy with it after ten years use. I know there are some out there in the £500-£1000 bracket. Are they any good?

 

So, opinions and experience please.

There has been a heck of a lot of progress in the last ten years. In particular, range has become longer and weight less.

A friend has just bought a rear wheel conversion kit to fit on a good quality road bike. It cost around £500 direct from China. It seems to be an excellent piece of kit. However you need to have a considerable amount of knowledge to install it. Fitting wheels and transmission to a bike is safety critical and not a job for the inexperienced. You also need the knowledge to know good from bad.

It will be more expensive in the short term to buy from an expert retail outfit, but it will give you assurance that what you are buying is a good safe product.

Bernard

 

[big jim]

14 hours ago, DIW said:

Have a look at @big jim's  'getting fit' thread, he has written a lot about the virtues of the e-bike. (Hopefully he'll have something to add here for you)

i went for a mid range ‘Carerra’ as my first bike, £1200 from halford but bought on the cycle to work scheme so monthly deduction from my wages 

 

im glad i did go electric to start as I think had I got a conventional bike I’d have given up pretty quickly but the boost the battery gave kept me motivated on the hills
 

The bike I went for (carerra) had a 30ish mile range which to start with was ample but as my fitness increased I found I was limited with my rides so after 9 months and about 6 stone weight loss I switched to a conventional bike and did longer, sometimes more remote rides knowing I wasn’t relying on finding somewhere to top up the battery on a break, still did over 1300 miles on it in those 9 months 

 

Used it for work a fair bit, put it in the radiator end of a 66 to move it around

 

after a ride from Hindlow to Derby at the end of a shift! 

 

it seems like most things technology has moved on and a lot of bikes around the same price seem to offer a far bigger range of say 50 miles now and the bikes are a lot lighter, look less like electric bikes with proper hidden batteries, a lot of the newer bike I see seem to be using iirc Bosch drive trains with the motor in the crank rather than the rear hub but they seem to be the higher end bikes 

 

I’d certainly recommend getting one, try a carerra or the like to save investing thousands and thousands in something you won’t use, they do an impel 3 that has a 50 mile range for not too bad a price, I believe it has a few issues early on but they have been resolved now, halford also used to do a ‘test ride’ offer where you kept it for a few days (at a price) to see how you get on with it 

 

I’ve actually still got me stepdads old roodog bike in the garage which is about 2013, heavy as hell but works fine, I keep meaning to get it recharged and pumped up for short rides to the station for work but I’ve ended up getting back on the normal bike instead now I’m back on a weight loss program 

[Cwmtwrch]

Note that the Bristol-Bath cycle path, like all others AFAIK, is for pedestrians and vehicles legally classed as bicycles, which most e-Bikes are not as @phil-b259 has pointed out. If you own such a vehicle you are not legally permitted to ride it anywhere except on private land with the owner's permission; elsewhere you are breaking the law, and you are also uninsured, and so open to prosecution for that as well. Enforcement is ******, much to my irritation, I admit, but if you are involved in an accident of any sort you are likely to come to official notice, and you will have no insurance to pay damages if you are responsible for damage or injury. Hired e-bikes are ok on roads [and insurance is provided by the hire company as I understand it - I've never used one] but if it's classed as a motor vehicle then not on cycle paths or pavements, and not to be used by anyone who does not have a driving licence [all of which also applies to privately owned electric scooters, as @phil-b259 has pointed out, as they are classed as motor vehicles]. Private land in this context, incidentally, is defined, so far as I know, in the same way as for the Road Traffic Acts; if the public has free access [car parks, railway stations, any public highway, etc.] it's not classed as private.

 

There is also a well publicised fire risk with keeping them indoors.

[Wheatley]

15 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Private land in this context, incidentally, is defined, so far as I know, in the same way as for the Road Traffic Acts; if the public has free access [car parks, railway stations, any public highway, etc.] it's not classed as private.

 

Be careful with that definition though. Yes, you can be prosecuted for motoring offences on a station access road or car park because it's ownership is not the determining factor. Whether the offence is prosecutable depends on whether the land in question is being used as a road, which a station car park or access road definitely is. 

 

But that definition does not necessarily work both ways - just because a place is treated as a road for the purposes of driving along it with no tax, insurance or MOT does not necessarily mean you are entitled to ride an e-bike along it if the occupier decides you can't. Railway stations, even the bits treated as public roads, are private property which the public are invited or permitted to enter for the purposes for which the occupier invites or permits them to be there.

 

As far as I'm aware no TOC has yet decided you can't ride your e-bike to the station but there is a great deal of nervousness in the industry about letting lithium-powered e-anythings on trains because of the risk of an uncontrollable fire in a crowded, confined and possibly moving train. 

Edited July 12 by Wheatley

[big jim]

Ah the old e-bike definition conundrum! 
 

The likes of bikes sold in Halfords

are all legal as they are ‘electric assist’ bikes limited to 15mph, as you say it’s the likes of those bikes with no limiters that are the issue, you know the ones that scroats get killed on riding dangerously whilst up to no good even though they were a good student and had trails for the local football team 

 

fire risks seem to be associated more with the cheaper, DIY probaly non regulated temu, Ali express type conversion kits rather than branded factory built bikes 

[Chris M]

All e-bikes that you buy from a reputable shop will have a 15.5 mph limit (on power supply) and therefore be technically a pedal cycle rather than a motor vehicle. 
There are two main types of assistance- cadence sensing and torque sensing. These are quite different in the way they assist. A cadence sensor will. Power the motor when it senses the pedals turning. It will provide power until the speed on the preset is reached. This can be nice. Cycling this type requires less effort but tends to use more battery. A torque sensor measures how hard you are pedalling and adds additional power in line with your effort. This gives a more natural feel to pedalling but requires more of your input.

 

if you buy from a reputable source the battery is likely to be very safe. If you buy the cheapest battery you can find from China then don’t be surprised if it bursts into flames. 
 

I have a Bosch torque sensor Cube 29er which is great and costs about £2k. I also have a cadence sensor foldable Woosh Rambletta which cost £1k and is also good. As I’m getting older I’m starting to prefer the Rambletta for smoother trails the Cube is best for rougher terrain.

[big jim]

2 minutes ago, Chris M said:

 

I have a Bosch torque sensor Cube 29er which is great and costs about £2k.

 

Which is excellent value when you consider my conventional Cube Hybrid cost £1400 new and my Cube carbon road bike was £2500 (both bought used for a fraction of that though, the carbon bike is currently being used as a very expensive clothes horse until I lose a bit more weight!) 

[Lochgorm]

41 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Note that the Bristol-Bath cycle path, like all others AFAIK, is for pedestrians and vehicles legally classed as bicycles, which most e-Bikes are not as @phil-b259 has pointed out. If you own such a vehicle you are not legally permitted to ride it anywhere except on private land with the owner's permission; elsewhere you are breaking the law, and you are also uninsured, and so open to prosecution for that as well. Enforcement is ******, much to my irritation, I admit, but if you are involved in an accident of any sort you are likely to come to official notice, and you will have no insurance to pay damages if you are responsible for damage or injury. Hired e-bikes are ok on roads [and insurance is provided by the hire company as I understand it - I've never used one] but if it's classed as a motor vehicle then not on cycle paths or pavements, and not to be used by anyone who does not have a driving licence [all of which also applies to privately owned electric scooters, as @phil-b259 has pointed out, as they are classed as motor vehicles]. Private land in this context, incidentally, is defined, so far as I know, in the same way as for the Road Traffic Acts; if the public has free access [car parks, railway stations, any public highway, etc.] it's not classed as private.

 

There is also a well publicised fire risk with keeping them indoors.

This is utter nonsense amounting to ignorant scaremongering.  Please reread very carefully https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules and comprehend what it actually says.

 

The 2 posts from big Jim and Chris M published whilst I was writing this are much more informative and I would echo the advice about buying cheap when it comes to batteries.

 

Coventry is the only place that I know that bans e-bikes on cycle routes.

 

Charie

 

 

[big jim]

Just now, Lochgorm said:

This is utter nonsense amounting to ignorant scaremongering.  

you put it more succinctly that I originally typed, the work I used started with B and ended in locks! 
 

 

[JZ]

3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Note that the Bristol-Bath cycle path, like all others AFAIK, is for pedestrians and vehicles legally classed as bicycles, 

I did point out in my original post that I will be using my conventional bike on the Bath-Bristol cycle path.

 

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

As far as I'm aware no TOC has yet decided you can't ride your e-bike to the station but there is a great deal of nervousness in the industry about letting lithium-powered e-anythings on trains because of the risk of an uncontrollable fire in a crowded, confined and possibly moving train. 

I have just retired from being a guard with GWR and the ruling was for e-scooters and it applied across the whole rail network for trains AND stations. We have seen video of e-scooters catching fire, one on the London Underground. The issue being that the vast majority have their battery underslung below the footboard and is susceptible to damage on kerbs.

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, Lochgorm said:

This is utter nonsense amounting to ignorant scaremongering.  Please reread very carefully https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules and comprehend what it actually says.

I agree I could have been clearer, sorry. I was specifically responding [or trying to] to @phil-b259's post, pointing out that an e-bike which was not legally classified as a bicycle, (EAPCs [electrically assisted pedal cycles] as legally defined are classified as bicycles), can't be used on cycle paths, as it's legally a motor vehicle. If it is a motor vehicle, and you don't register it, tax it, and have the necessary licence and insurance you can't legally use it except on private land with permission. If you do you can use it anywhere you can use any motor vehicle, as far as I know, which does not include a cycle path.

 

I hope I've got it right now.

[Chris M]

40 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I agree I could have been clearer, sorry. I was specifically responding [or trying to] to @phil-b259's post, pointing out that an e-bike which was not legally classified as a bicycle, (EAPCs [electrically assisted pedal cycles] as legally defined are classified as bicycles), can't be used on cycle paths, as it's legally a motor vehicle. If it is a motor vehicle, and you don't register it, tax it, and have the necessary licence and insurance you can't legally use it except on private land with permission. If you do you can use it anywhere you can use any motor vehicle, as far as I know, which does not include a cycle path.

 

I hope I've got it right now.

But pretty much all the e-bikes on sale from shops and reputable on line suppliers in the UK are designed to fit within the legislation that makes them effectively the same as a non powered bicycle.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, JZ said:

I have just retired from being a guard with GWR and the ruling was for e-scooters and it applied across the whole rail network for trains AND stations. We have seen video of e-scooters catching fire, one on the London Underground. The issue being that the vast majority have their battery underslung below the footboard and is susceptible to damage on kerbs.

I wrote the staff briefing for Northern's e-scooter ban, it was based on the fact that as they are not road legal (apart from the trial ones) there is not the same type approval and testing regime as e-bikes, and it's therefore a complete free for all beyond the most basic level of electrical toy safety. Each TOC has applied the RDG Guidance as it sees fit so there is some minor variation. 

 

E-bikes are permitted (provided they fit in the bike space) because they are regulated as described above. However, if the number of fires involving home-made conversions and dodgy cobbled-together battery packs continues that might well change. In the event of a fire you have seconds to act, and the general consensus at the moment is that if the burning bike doesn't go out of the nearest door and into the cess sharpish, then the passengers do.

 

Mopeds are already banned under the National Conditions of Carriage so they aren't a problem. 

 

Eventually as battery technology evolves it won't be an issue. 

Edited July 12 by Wheatley

[Grovenor]

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

But pretty much all the e-bikes on sale from shops and reputable on line suppliers in the UK are designed to fit within the legislation that makes them effectively the same as a non powered bicycle.

But a lot of the e-bikes i observe around here in use by couriers and others seem to climb hills very effectively without the riders turning the pedals. If they don't come from shops or reputable suppliers where do they come from?

 

 

[Ramblin Rich]

26 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

But a lot of the e-bikes i observe around here in use by couriers and others seem to climb hills very effectively without the riders turning the pedals. If they don't come from shops or reputable suppliers where do they come from?

 

 

You'll also notice that the riders don't seem to be pedalling.  In other words, they are not power assisted bicycles but actually powered bikes, effectively electric mopeds and definitely not legally e-bikes. The fact they do well over 15.5mph (probably double) in near silence makes them a menace in the high street where the only other vehicles are noisy buses. You really have to look carefully before stepping onto the road.

Strangely the delivery riders round here often wear balaclavas, as though trying to disguise themselves...

[polybear]

I know diddly squat about leccy bikes, but the only comment I'd make is that if I had one I'd keep it in the shed and that's where I'd charge it too.  Sure, the "proper" ones from the likes of Halfords etc. are reputedly safe but nothing is infallible.

[Kris]

If you want to try one out, Halfords lend them (free of charge) to prospective purchasers. When we were looking for one for my wife we borrowed a couple of different ones to see what they were like. https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/electric-bike-trials/

[njee20]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

But a lot of the e-bikes i observe around here in use by couriers and others seem to climb hills very effectively without the riders turning the pedals. If they don't come from shops or reputable suppliers where do they come from?

 

 

The internet. It's awash with them, either full bikes or conversion kits.

[jjb1970]

To the OP, my advice would be to work out what you want, set a budget then look for a bike that fits your needs within your budget. I wouldn't rule out stretching the budget, but if you do then do it on your terms, don't let bike shops or experts try and convince you that anything less that spending £££££££££££££££££s or with the wrong name sticker is junk. Try and get a test ride. For advice, I'd suggest seeing if you have friends and colleagues with E-bikes who can offer down to earth opinions and advice based on their own experiences. 

[PatB]

Ignoring legalities for a while (I'm not in the UK, so can't really comment on current UK laws), I put together a homebrew ebike from an old, steel framed Trek MTB, a Bafang mid-motor and controller off Ebay, and a battery from the same source. I was very happy with it, commuting for a year (15 km each way) on our local railway trail. It's currently in bits for an update (I found a frame that fits me better) and to hopefully sort out some niggles (turns out that a big, heavy rider, plus the extra oomph from the motor, in a rigid frame on rough surfaces will cause cheap wheels to ping spokes rather frequently).

 

I kept it (sort of) legal, with a 250W motor and a supposed max powered speed of 25 km/h. I'm qualified and capable of riding a real motorcycle, so have no desire to play cat and mouse with the authorities for the dubious pleasure of riding a pretend one.

 

Overall, it's been successful, allowing me to do my commute, even in summer, without being knackered or particularly sweaty (more than is simply inevitable from being outside in WA) at the end of it. It definitely represents my cycling future. Ten years ago I was pedalling a ridiculously tall geared singlespeed around Canberra at a rate of 200 km a week, but, frankly, my knees and hips aren't up to that sort of silliness these days.