Royal mail to stop using Rail.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Always wondered why a 6 days a week service is still required. In Australia, Saturday delivery disappeared decades ago and I don't believe the sky fell in. Since sometime in April, we've gone to an every 2nd day delivery - this is for standard letters.

 

Isn't reducing frequency, an easy way to make savings?

Required, maybe not. But it would be a decline in the quality of service, and whenever that happens you need to take a good look a things, having taken a step back, and ask "is this where we want to be going?"

[Phil Parker]

22 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

 

You really don't like my posts do you? Perhaps you should stop reading them!

 

I simply disagree with some of them, and responded. That's how forums work.

[Phil Parker]

17 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Meanwhile back in the UK .....

We now live in the most westerly mainland town; a place of 4500 or so permanent inhabitants and a thousand or so extra when the holiday cottages are occupied.  Our post office is an owner-managed business open seven days a week (though not Sunday afternoons) and in Australia would be called a "mixed business".  Royal Mail deliver letters in theory six days a week but in reality it's two or at best three.  Never on a Monday.  Usually on a Tuesday and Friday.  Very occasionally Wednesday, Thursday or Saturday.  They deliver parcels seven days a week.  That may well be to keep up with the other delivery services which also do that.  They must all have much the same rounds as they all seem to appear at around 4pm daily.  

 

There simply isn't the volume of mail to justify the six-day delivery commitment.  First class mail posted on Tuesday from elsewhere in the UK will typically arrive on Friday despite the "guarantee" of next-day delivery to the mainland.

 

I live in the Midlands, and we generally get a daily delivery, so the level of service varies around the country. As for delivery times, I send out the contributors copies of Garden Rail every month 2nd class, and very often, they arrive a couple of days later. That has always surprised me, but it seems pretty consistent over the last few years.

 

17 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

As the Royal Mail sinks slowly into commercial oblivion I wonder if there will come a time when it, along with parts of the railway, has to be placed in the hands of the "Operator of Last Resort" namely the Government.  That might be the best option in the long term.  

 

Is that where it was before it was privatised? See also railways, and very likely, water companies.

[Ray H]

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the 1st class & 2nd class separation. With the majority of sorting now done mechanically I can't see the need to keep the two tier system. It takes space, incurs some kind of cost in having software to sort it into two - after all both go in the same post box.

 

Surely a single class at a single fee rate has to be a means to save money or am I missing something? It possibly won't bring mail back to rail but it might safeguard the basic 6 day service.

[Reorte]

Just now, kevinlms said:

So you didn't read the part where I stated that they have taken workers in Australia Post off letter delivery services and improved delivery for parcels? Because that's where the market is these days.

Not mentioned or referred to in the post I was replying to. In any case chasing the market doesn't always result in a better world. It's understandable, but the outcomes aren't always the most desirable.

 

Quote

Is that clear enough now for you and Phil to understand?

Charming tone there.

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, admiles said:

My experience with Royal Mail is exactly the opposite to yours.  I've had lots of packages lost by them. We no longer get a Saturday delivery where as most of the other companies do and several also deliver on Sundays too. And on week days they only deliver every other day

And my experience of Royal Mail is exactly the opposite to yours, and most of the courier companies who deliver locally to me are utter carp.

 

Which only shows that the plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”.

Edited July 22 by RichardT
Spelling

[kevinlms]

31 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

I beg to differ on that score.  

 

In (geographically) most of Australia the nearest postal facility can be many miles away.  Yes it's often within a few minutes' drive in the main cities and there's often somewhere in the regional / rural towns but for the vastness of the outback - admittedly where very few people live - it's an RMB address or you take your mail into town when you do the weekly (pr even monthly) shopping run.  That trip might be a few hours.  RMB (Roadside Mail Box) is literally what it says; it can be a milk churn or other similar container suspended or placed by the end of a rural road which might in itself be miles long leading to one or a handful of properties.  

 

 

Yes of course the outback is completely different, but I was responding to the idea that in Britain, you have to go to a delivery centre, to pick up any 'missed' mail.

 

I do know where my nearest delivery centre is (in Mooroolbark, you'd know where that is - although maybe it is not MY delivery centre, maybe elsewhere I don't need to know), which is a 40 minute drive for me.

However, I do NOT have to go there EVER to pick up post, if it fails to be delivered, I can pick it up at a local post office. There are 5 more convenient post offices between my address and the delivery centre, so NO ONE needs to go there.

 

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps Royal Mail could be copying Australia Post and adopting that model, rather than inconveniencing customers! Strange that street deliveries are 6 days a week and never to be changed, but these hopeless delivery centres aren't open on Saturdays - that's next to useless! Can none of you here see the inconsistency? Guess what, some of our local post offices are open Sat mornings, so you can pick up items that you missed during the week!

 

AP has a long history of being rather good at delivery of mail, IMO. But times are a changing.

[Phil Parker]

24 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Charming tone there.

 

KevinLMS has left the discussion.

 

Now I know I'm as guilty as anyone, but can we get back to the original point, and not general Royal Mail and other delivery services discussion.

 

Thanks

[Michael Hodgson]

I think it's sad that my local steam shed on the back of the Up Line platform isn't there any more.

 

Whilst I was still a commuter, Royal mail (or whatever the GPO were called at the time) built an ugly brick shed with roller shutters on part of its site, used to tranship mail between trains and vans.  Now I think it's sad that even that simple shelter hasn't been used for a good many years either.  It's simply not needed any more.  They closed our local sorting office (having already closed the Crown post office at the front of the building) and it's been replaced by a block of flats.  The post now goes to a larger town for sorting.  Whilst it's right beside the line, it's not rail served and never has been.  Hardly surprising that the trains too are considered an anachronism.

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, 2251 said:

My understanding is that it was a government department

Correct, and the name ‘Post Office’ in its original meaning was more similar to the sense in which you might have a ‘Foreign Office’, ‘War Office’ etc. etc. as part of the government (whereas I think now it’s seen by a lot of people as meaning ‘an office where you send post from’ in reference to the individual shops/counters). ‘Royal Mail’ if you go back far enough was started by Henry VIII.

 

I’m not completely familiar with all the details of the privatisation process but as I understand it we now have Post Office Limited (still government-owned, runs post office counters) and separately Royal Mail Group (privatised, also includes Parcelforce). The independent charity that runs the Postal Museum (where I work) was initially set up to look after the archives and public records of the GPO and its successors including Royal Mail (something they’d done themselves previously) although I think this predates the actual privatisation.

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Of course if our passenger railways were still allowed to carry something other than self-loading freight then RM might find itself able to economically shift mail of most kinds in the way it traditionally did; namely stowing bags in the designated area of the next train to Little Nuttingford and having a red van meet that train at the other end of the line.  

 

As I recall it was part of the rail privatisation process rather than the RM sale which precipitated this change.  

 

 

Was Royal Mail involved with Red Star or did BR do that independently?

 

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Dropping to 2-3 deliveries a week, as you suggest, will just send the business elsewhere. And that's the profitable side. RM will still be under obligation to deliver a letter posted in the UK anywhere else in the UK for a standard price.

 

I’m sort of reminded here (maybe in a slightly oblique way, but bear with me) of the argument that general freight on the railways struggled in the 1950s in the UK (and in some cases earlier) because some of the profitable business was creamed off by road hauliers, but the railways as ‘common carriers’ were still required to carry other stuff at reasonable rates (I’m not suggesting that they shouldn’t have, and definitely not opposing the concept of a universal letter post, but it’s an interesting comparison).

 

Also in this context (about the idea of universal rates for postage within the UK) I should point out that, pre-1840, when postal rates depended on distance and number of pages, the amount of admin required to calculate and organise this and then charge correctly for it was actually very expensive - going back to that sort of system would be unlikely to save the company money.

 

 

[Gwiwer]

16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Was Royal Mail involved with Red Star or did BR do that independently?

Red Star was a BR brand and was, when first established, marketed as an express and traceable network for parcels.  They still had to be dropped at stations or other Red Star collection points.  Some were collected from stations, others were delivered to the door.  The general parcels service was a legacy of the railways being a "common carrier" required to provide for any and all traffic offered.  Red Star parcels went on specific trains, some even had their own iirc but mostly in the guard's van of passenger workings.  General and "TCF" parcels (consigned to a station and labelled "TCF" meaning to be left Till Called For) could go on what ever service was available.  Red Star also offered overnight delivery for small perishable items such as a box of fish or a carton of cut flowers which would not have lasted as a TCF item.

 

Royal Mail's use of the railway has been by contract.  Dedicated trains (TPO and other specific workings) and the use of passenger stock for the conveyance of bagged mail.  Either in the guard's van or - with upturned seat cushions so that mail bags didn't soil them - in the passenger saloons of dedicated trains.  One or two of those which I knew of would have run e.c.s. anyway so having them operate as mail trains brought in handy extra revenue.  

 

Of passing interest here is that bus companies were also required to carry parcels provided they could be fitted into the vehicle.  You dropped your parcel at the bus company's office or one of a wide network of parcel agents (often small shops or post offices in rural towns and villages) who would see that it got on the bus.  The consignee was then advised that it was on the way and had to collect it from the office or agent at the other end.  The bus conductor would issue a parcel ticket to the agent as a receipt for it.  

 

 

Edited July 22 by Gwiwer

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Red Star was a BR brand and was, when first established, marketed as an express and traceable network for parcels.  They still had to be dropped at stations or other Red Star collection points.  Some were collected from stations, others were delivered to the door.  The general parcels service was a legacy of the railways being a "common carrier" required to provide for any and all traffic offered.  Red Star parcels went on specific trains, some even had their own iirc but mostly in the guard's van of passenger workings.  General and "TCF" parcels (consigned to a station and labelled "TCF" meaning to be left Till Called For) could go on what ever service was available.  Red Star also offered overnight delivery for small perishable items such as a box of fish or a carton of cut flowers which would not have lasted as a TCF item.

Interesting - so not RM-related at all then.

 

4 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Royal Mail's use of the railway has been by contract.

Exactly, as had been the post coaches the railways replaced. Royal Mail operating its own vehicles/transport infrastructure directly is a relatively recent development (indeed it’s one of the things that distinguished the London Post Office Railway, which they owned themselves, from previous similar initiatives).

[stewartingram]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think it's sad that my local steam shed on the back of the Up Line platform isn't there any more.

 

Whilst I was still a commuter, Royal mail (or whatever the GPO were called at the time) built an ugly brick shed with roller shutters on part of its site, used to tranship mail between trains and vans.  Now I think it's sad that even that simple shelter hasn't been used for a good many years either.  It's simply not needed any more.  They closed our local sorting office (having already closed the Crown post office at the front of the building) and it's been replaced by a block of flats.  The post now goes to a larger town for sorting.  Whilst it's right beside the line, it's not rail served and never has been.  Hardly surprising that the trains too are considered an anachronism.

Hitchin?

[lmsforever]

Many interesting comments  but the lack of rail will increase road  traffic and will slow downthe mail distribution all over the UK ,not what is required   ,replacing eight or four coaches full of mail is not a good idea.The replacement lorries will be slow unable to carry a useful   load meaning a high number of vehicles will constantly on the road adding to the high output of  bad fumes plus a top speed of 40mph th.ey are not  fit for purpose .  Mail trains should be expanded   give a better service and increase the use of our very good system that should be not sold to foreign groups the profits should stay in the UK  you all wait for reductions  and job losses three delivries  a week and as for collections  just hope there is someone to do the job.

 

[SED Freightman]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Was Royal Mail involved with Red Star or did BR do that independently?

 

As Gwiwer has pointed out above, Royal Mail had no involvement in Red Star parcels it being a BR operation from the outset and only available between certain stations connected by direct train services.  After a while a private company, City Link, began operating a cross London transfer service for Red Star parcels traffic which greatly expanded the scope of the service, following the success of this City Link expanded their involvement and operated a collection and delivery service at many locations in connection with Red Star which was used for the trunk haul.

[DavidB-AU]

15 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The name gives an impression of being something it isn't and I am sure many British customers consider it a level above FedEx, DHL, UPS and all the other alternative logistics/delivery companies.  

 

There are over 4000 active companies with Royal in the name registered with Companies House. It doesn't mean anything. Would you consider the Royal China Chinese Takeaway in Yorkshire a level above others simply because of a word in the name?

 

And of all the companies named in this topic, only DHL has a Royal Warrant to carry express parcels for the Royal Family.

[jjb1970]

27 minutes ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

There are over 4000 active companies with Royal in the name registered with Companies House. It doesn't mean anything. Would you consider the Royal China Chinese Takeaway in Yorkshire a level above others simply because of a word in the name?

 

And of all the companies named in this topic, only DHL has a Royal Warrant to carry express parcels for the Royal Family.

 

If the Royal China Chinese Takeaway in Yorkshire had a heritage going back several hundreds of years in association with the crown, was a significant part of our history and was part of the national psyche as a result of the post office, stamps, mail trains, mail ships, mail boxes etc then yes. I am sure many would consider it differently from the Canton Takeaway down the road even after it had been privatised and no longer had anything to do with the crown or government. 

[Reorte]

13 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

As Gwiwer has pointed out above, Royal Mail had no involvement in Red Star parcels it being a BR operation from the outset and only available between certain stations connected by direct train services.  After a while a private company, City Link, began operating a cross London transfer service for Red Star parcels traffic which greatly expanded the scope of the service, following the success of this City Link expanded their involvement and operated a collection and delivery service at many locations in connection with Red Star which was used for the trunk haul.

Lorries might be slower than trains but I'd be surprised if that adds up to much overall difference in delivery times (which in any case these days seem to be dominated by factors other than the means used to move the mail).

[The Stationmaster]

On 22/07/2024 at 10:27, Gwiwer said:

Of course if our passenger railways were still allowed to carry something other than self-loading freight then RM might find itself able to economically shift mail of most kinds in the way it traditionally did; namely stowing bags in the designated area of the next train to Little Nuttingford and having a red van meet that train at the other end of the line.  

 

As I recall it was part of the rail privatisation process rather than the RM sale which precipitated this change.  

 

 

Mail by passenger trains was disappearing long before privatisation and that came about because of the ending of the 1920s contract between the Post Office and railway companies which gave the Post Office the legal right to load Letter Mail to any advertised passenger train.

 

By the 1980s BR were building trains, in considerable numbers, which had no capability at all to carry mail traffic of any sort.  Which was hardly surprising as mail traffic was increasingly being taken away from trains right back in the early 1970s.  For example Letter Mail traffic had already ceased to pass on out local branch by 1970 (Parcel Post had gone in the late 1960s).

 

The reasons were very simple - economics.  Except where large sorting offices (in particular) were adjacent to stations there was a considerable cost on the Post Office for sending Letter Mail to/from every station.  Additionally as BR removed staff from increasing numbers of stations there were no facilities for Postmen and should they be delayed getting to a station there was no secure way of unloading Letter Mail destined for that station.

 

When Letter Mail was carried on our branch it meant a Postman walking or driving to the station with only a few bags of Letter Mail and it also required another Postman to be at the junction to transfer the bags from the branch train to main line trains although he might also be handling LetterMail to/from the local Post Office.  In other words the work was very 'bitty' with very poor utilisation of the hours of Postmen involved in handling Letter Mail through smaller stations.  Post Office concentrations schemes for mail weren't much different in economic terms from BR concentration schemes for parcels and Goods Smalls as they reduced costs and improved staff utilisation albeit at the cost of increased road vehicle mileage.

 

The later difference of course came from Royal mail concentrating all sorting, by then fully mechanised, on large centres.  Our local Sorting Office ceased to sort mail when the work was transferred to a large town 7 miles away; now it goes to a place 50 miles away to be sorted.  So if we receive a letter from the vet - barely half mile from our house - it will actually have travelled just over 100 miles and will bear a Swindon postmark just to confuse us.

[The Stationmaster]

Just for the record as a matter of fact the Post Office was carrying mail traffic (at that time mainly, but far from exclusively, Parcel Post) by road between sorting offices in 1969.  I saw as part of my everyday work road movements included in PO mail schedules clearly identified  by the letters OMV - which stood for 'Own Motor Vehicle'.    Not even I, although it was part of my working life, would necessarily refer to that as 'a recent development'.

 

Incidentally just for the record the SR (company, not Region) and subsequently BR SR carried Letter Mail over one route by road vehicle from 1935 to the end of the 1920s Letter Mail contract. (A direct consequence of the closure of the Lynton & Barnstaple route and it was the only contracted use of a railway road motor by the Post Office for the conveyance of Letter Mail .)

[stewartingram]

10 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

There are over 4000 active companies with Royal in the name registered with Companies House. It doesn't mean anything. Would you consider the Royal China Chinese Takeaway in Yorkshire a level above others simply because of a word in the name?

 

And of all the companies named in this topic, only DHL has a Royal Warrant to carry express parcels for the Royal Family.

Do they throw the parcel in the bin behind the fancy gate?

[Gwiwer]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

if we receive a letter from the vet - barely half mile from our house - it will actually have travelled just over 100 miles

And they wonder why letter mail is losing money? 

[Reorte]

Just now, Gwiwer said:

And they wonder why letter mail is losing money? 

It can be economically efficient doing that, just not in any other sense.

[Gwiwer]

15 hours ago, lmsforever said:

the high output of  bad fumes plus a top speed of 40mph

Many vehicles are Euro6-compliant so diesel fumes and emissions are far lower than they once were. 
 

Smaller vans are subject to the national speed limit (60 or 70mph on non-urban roads unless otherwise marked) while the larger ones are subject to the slightly lower limits applicable to all HGVs. But not as slow 40mph unless on a road marked with that limit.