Royal mail to stop using Rail.

[figworthy]

11 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

We have a clear notice on our door saying "no junk/unaddressed mail" & are registered with the Mail Preference Service but apparently this does not apply to RM.

 

That is because the MPS doesn't come into play with this (unaddressed or "The Householder" type stuff).  You can (or could) register with RM to get to not deliver such stuff (with some exceptions), but that is then down to the postie remembering not to deliver it, and you have to renew the request on a regular basis.

 

Back to mail by rail (or not as the case may be)

 

Adrian

[GrumpyPenguin]

54 minutes ago, figworthy said:

 

That is because the MPS doesn't come into play with this (unaddressed or "The Householder" type stuff).  You can (or could) register with RM to get to not deliver such stuff (with some exceptions), but that is then down to the postie remembering not to deliver it, and you have to renew the request on a regular basis.

 

Back to mail by rail (or not as the case may be)

 

Adrian

I'm aware of all that but I don't see why I should have to renew the request at intervals - it should be "until further notice". Our usual Postie respects us & does not inflict unaddressed jusk mail on us, but the relief of course do.

Which reminds me, i have to mail for RM !

Estate agents who pester us to sell the house get their stuff returned in typed, addressed & unstamped envelopes.

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

A bit of a contradiction there - it's a problem needing the handling, but not needing 10000 extra drivers?

According to one newspaper report over recent days it is 30 (thirty) additional motor drivers.

[DavidB-AU]

I think everybody needs to take a step back from "the 325s are old therefore everything will go by road". "Mail" these days is less about letters and more about small parcels. While air is economical for some of the highest priority items over the longest distances and road distribution to the front door is necessary, this is not unique to mail. There are plenty of other companies that do this with parcels and use rail as part of the mix but they don't operate their own trains using non-standard rollingstock, they simply use what is already available. Amazon, DHL, FedEx, TNT and UPS to name just a few carry parcels by rail in ISO shipping containers (often but not always branded) in multiple countries around the world. Australia Post and US Postal Service carry mail by rail in unbranded containers on ordinary intermodal trains. It's not rocket science.

 

I might add that DHL already has a Royal Warrant to carry express parcels.

[lmsforever]

Surely  the current system of mail by train is paying its way and providing a good service that helps our mail arrive on time,putting it on the road will increase costs and decrease reliance on the postal service. Also the proposed sale of the service to a foreign based group will increase costs and cause many job losses  plus a decrease in home deliveries and eventually  none what so ever ,replaced by post boxes in a town centre . Some might say I am being pessamestic but I have seen to much of this  in the past in other industries and many people will lose jobs and will suffer from poor service. The chairman of the new group was interviewed on tv recently and came over as a typical high profit generated by a small workforce and a very reduced service, Important services should not be sold off and be ring fenced to stop this happening  and  mail should be kept on trains and the service increased to reduce lorries on our roads.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

Surely  the current system of mail by train is paying its way and providing a good service that helps our mail arrive on time,putting it on the road will increase costs and decrease reliance on the postal service. Also the proposed sale of the service to a foreign based group will increase costs and cause many job losses  plus a decrease in home deliveries and eventually  none what so ever ,replaced by post boxes in a town centre .

That appears to be jingoist nonsense.

 

If it were true, Royal Mail would not have decided to discontinue rail in favour of road, a decision evidently made before any change in ownership.  Who happens to own the group has no bearing on costs, but rather where on any profits end up.  The new owner may be a foreigner but as I understand it, he has committed to maintaining deliveries 6 days a week to the whole of the UK and no redundancies. 

 

I do wonder however what justification there is in the company retaining the right to use the word Royal in its name

[DavidB-AU]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I do wonder however what justification there is in the company retaining the right to use the word Royal in its name

 

Royal Mail Group Ltd has Royal in its name because that's the legal name of the company unrelated to the Royal charter granted to its predecessor long before it became a corporation. You don't actually need a Royal charter to have the word Royal in a company name, you just need prior approval of the Secretary of State for Business and Trade. Royal is just one of 134 reserved words and phrases in company names that require approval. Fun fact, among obvious ones like Bank, Foundation, Institute and Trust, one of the reserved words is "Sheffield" which requires a letter of non-objection from the Company of Cutlers.

[2251]

3 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Royal Mail Group Ltd has Royal in its name because that's the legal name of the company unrelated to the Royal charter granted to its predecessor long before it became a corporation. 

 

Are you sure that there was a royal charter in relation to the post office? 

 

My understanding is that it was a government department (and therefore was not a separate person from the Crown generally) until the Post Office Act 1969, which brought into being a new statutory corporation called simply "The Post Office".

[jjb1970]

The name gives an impression of being something it isn't and I am sure many British customers consider it a level above FedEx, DHL, UPS and all the other alternative logistics/delivery companies.  

[KingEdwardII]

11 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

many British customers consider it a level above

I certainly do. I always prefer a package delivery via Royal Mail, based on my experiences with them and with numerous other delivery companies. RM are reliable and generally deliver when they say. The worst aspect of some of the other companies is that if they are unable to deliver a package to my door, then I have to trog half way across the county to their depot - the RM office in my local town is close and convenient, by comparison.

 

I have also never had RM misdeliver a package, something not true of some of the other companies.

 

On the other hand, some of the other companies do have excellent apps with tracking capabilities - DPD is one of the best, not only showing the location of the courier, but also indicating how many stops before they get to me. RM don't have anything equivalent.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Gwiwer]

Of course if our passenger railways were still allowed to carry something other than self-loading freight then RM might find itself able to economically shift mail of most kinds in the way it traditionally did; namely stowing bags in the designated area of the next train to Little Nuttingford and having a red van meet that train at the other end of the line.  

 

As I recall it was part of the rail privatisation process rather than the RM sale which precipitated this change.  

 

 

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

  The new owner may be a foreigner but as I understand it, he has committed to maintaining deliveries 6 days a week to the whole of the UK and no redundancies. 

 

Always wondered why a 6 days a week service is still required. In Australia, Saturday delivery disappeared decades ago and I don't believe the sky fell in. Since sometime in April, we've gone to an every 2nd day delivery - this is for standard letters.

 

Isn't reducing frequency, an easy way to make savings?

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Always wondered why a 6 days a week service is still required. In Australia, Saturday delivery disappeared decades ago and I don't believe the sky fell in. Since sometime in April, we've gone to an every 2nd day delivery - this is for standard letters.

 

Isn't reducing frequency, an easy way to make savings?

I do wonder that, but then I think reducing frequency would result in big job losses (at a simplistic level you'll only need half the delivery staff) so i'm filing it under 'be careful what you  wish for' at the moment.

[Phil Parker]

16 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Always wondered why a 6 days a week service is still required. In Australia, Saturday delivery disappeared decades ago and I don't believe the sky fell in. Since sometime in April, we've gone to an every 2nd day delivery - this is for standard letters.

 

Isn't reducing frequency, an easy way to make savings?

 

The letter delivery service also includes small packets. Only getting deliveries of those a couple of times a week would be a nuisance.

 

And as @spamcan61 says, the savings would come from getting rid of staff, so the service on those rare days when you would get post wouldn't be any better, and probably worse.

 

More generally, the idea of "Let's make the service worse to save money" hasn't panned out well in the UK.

[admiles]

13 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Surely  the current system of mail by train is paying its way and providing a good service that helps our mail arrive on time,putting it on the road will increase costs and decrease reliance on the postal service. Also the proposed sale of the service to a foreign based group will increase costs and cause many job losses  plus a decrease in home deliveries and eventually  none what so ever ,replaced by post boxes in a town centre . Some might say I am being pessamestic but I have seen to much of this  in the past in other industries and many people will lose jobs and will suffer from poor service. The chairman of the new group was interviewed on tv recently and came over as a typical high profit generated by a small workforce and a very reduced service, Important services should not be sold off and be ring fenced to stop this happening  and  mail should be kept on trains and the service increased to reduce lorries on our roads.

 

I'd be amazed if moving mail via trucks isn't considerably cheaper than owning an ageing fleet of bespoke EMUs to do it.  Putting it on to the road will save a considerable amount I suspect.

Trucks/trailers are off the shelf items and are already being bought/leased in large numbers by Royal Mail. Adding a few more won't cost much.

 

There's a reason rail and air are being culled. To reduce costs. The company is losing money hand over fist!

Edited July 22 by admiles

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The letter delivery service also includes small packets. Only getting deliveries of those a couple of times a week would be a nuisance.

 

And as @spamcan61 says, the savings would come from getting rid of staff, so the service on those rare days when you would get post wouldn't be any better, and probably worse.

 

More generally, the idea of "Let's make the service worse to save money" hasn't panned out well in the UK.

In Australia, they have allegedly changed, so that the manpower spends more time on their parcels service.

The previous approach was that the postie wouldn't bother taking small packets out at all and before leaving the office would fill out a heap of 'Sorry, we missed you' cards, so the addressee had to front down the post office the next day at the earliest, to pick it up!

 

As for 'making the service worse, to save money', a standard result in privatisation, worldwide!

[lmsforever]

The boss of the group that will own Royal Mail said in the interview that jobs would come under scrutiniy after one year and redundancies would occur in large numbers ,this is not jingoist noise its whats going to happen. Prices will rise ,deliveries will be restricted ,sorting offices will close thus causing delays ,reduced staff will mean that collection of mail will be restricted overal the post offie will not be fit for purpose.

[admiles]

3 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I certainly do. I always prefer a package delivery via Royal Mail, based on my experiences with them and with numerous other delivery companies. RM are reliable and generally deliver when they say. The worst aspect of some of the other companies is that if they are unable to deliver a package to my door, then I have to trog half way across the county to their depot - the RM office in my local town is close and convenient, by comparison.

 

I have also never had RM misdeliver a package, something not true of some of the other companies.

 

On the other hand, some of the other companies do have excellent apps with tracking capabilities - DPD is one of the best, not only showing the location of the courier, but also indicating how many stops before they get to me. RM don't have anything equivalent.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

My experience with Royal Mail is exactly the opposite to yours.  I've had lots of packages lost by them. We no longer get a Saturday delivery where as most of the other companies do and several also deliver on Sundays too. And on week days they only deliver every other day.

 

When packages do end up at our "local" delivery office. It's virtually impossible to liberate them.  The delivery office is 25 miles from where I work (15 from where I live) closed at lunchtimes, closes at 1700 Hrs most weekdays and not open on Saturdays (despite the website saying it is).  Oh and there's no parking either.

 

Frankly it feels like they want to fail.

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, lmsforever said:

The boss of the group that will own Royal Mail said in the interview that jobs would come under scrutiniy after one year and redundancies would occur in large numbers ,this is not jingoist noise its whats going to happen. Prices will rise ,deliveries will be restricted ,sorting offices will close thus causing delays ,reduced staff will mean that collection of mail will be restricted overal the post offie will not be fit for purpose.

Anyone who believes that job losses won't occur in any postal service, in the western world at least, is dreaming. The whole idea of sending envelopes containing a sheet or 2 of paper around even small distances, is over. It was the part of the business that made money and has gone for good.

Post offices used to make good money from people paying all their bills and selling non postal items in their retail outlets, now fewer and fewer people, even enter those shops.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Anyone who believes that job losses won't occur in any postal service, in the western world at least, is dreaming. The whole idea of sending envelopes containing a sheet or 2 of paper around even small distances, is over. It was the part of the business that made money and has gone for good.

 

That's odd. I had two today, and rarely do we not get some sort of post here. I agree, the volumes have changed, but it still happens. How can it be "gone for good"?

 

Is this going to be the same as the argument that all the cinemas will close once everyone has a TV?

[kevinlms]

7 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

My experience with Royal Mail is exactly the opposite to yours.  I've had lots of packages lost by them. We no longer get a Saturday delivery where as most of the other companies do and several also deliver on Sundays too. And on week days they only deliver every other day.

 

When packages do end up at our "local" delivery office. It's virtually impossible to liberate them.  The delivery office is 25 miles from where I work (15 from where I live) closed at lunchtimes, closes at 1700 Hrs most weekdays and not open on Saturdays (despite the website saying it is).  Oh and there's no parking either.

 

Frankly it feels like they want to fail.

At least for most in Australia, the local post office is not that far away, which is where the local postie drops them off.

 

We DON'T have to go to a delivery centre, so it appears that we are WAY more civilised than in the UK. Maybe the fact that we made savings, such as not delivering Saturdays years ago has helped.

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

 

That's odd. I had two today, and rarely do we not get some sort of post here. I agree, the volumes have changed, but it still happens. How can it be "gone for good"?

 

Is this going to be the same as the argument that all the cinemas will close once everyone has a TV?

Much reduced then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you read what I wrote, you should have realised that the profit from delivering lots of letters has 'Gone for Good'!

 

Used to get half a dozen letters on average daily, so 30 a week, now maybe 8 a week, so alternate days is fine. The bills can wait an extra day and I do still get most of my bills by post, rather than email. Mostly because I tend to read them electronically, then forget to pay, because they get lost amongst the spam! AND NO, I refuse to print out emailed invoices, that only saves them money and NOT trees!

 

I haven't been to a cinema for ages, no good then relying on me for a living. Don't watch much TV either.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I haven't been to a cinema for ages, no good then relying on me for a living. Don't watch much TV either.

 

So you are extrapolating from yourself. Time to look at the bigger picture. Letter post has dropped, but parcels have gone up. To compound this, people expect anything that they buy to be on the doorstep the next morning, not in a couple of days when Royal Mail fancies it. Anyone who sells via eBay knows this, as does any mail order trader. Dropping to 2-3 deliveries a week, as you suggest, will just send the business elsewhere. And that's the profitable side. RM will still be under obligation to deliver a letter posted in the UK anywhere else in the UK for a standard price.

 

As I say, TV didn't close all the cinemas, nor did it replace radio, and neither has streaming services. All have a niche, and I expect letters by post will also have one.

 

As for mail by rail (to get back to the topic), surely part of the problem is that the units they use haven't changed, but the rest of the world has. You can't get spares for them, and sticking the stuff in a lorry is cheaper than replacing the sets.

[kevinlms]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So you are extrapolating from yourself. Time to look at the bigger picture. Letter post has dropped, but parcels have gone up. To compound this, people expect anything that they buy to be on the doorstep the next morning, not in a couple of days when Royal Mail fancies it. Anyone who sells via eBay knows this, as does any mail order trader. Dropping to 2-3 deliveries a week, as you suggest, will just send the business elsewhere. And that's the profitable side. RM will still be under obligation to deliver a letter posted in the UK anywhere else in the UK for a standard price.

 

As I say, TV didn't close all the cinemas, nor did it replace radio, and neither has streaming services. All have a niche, and I expect letters by post will also have one.

 

As for mail by rail (to get back to the topic), surely part of the problem is that the units they use haven't changed, but the rest of the world has. You can't get spares for them, and sticking the stuff in a lorry is cheaper than replacing the sets.

 

You really don't like my posts do you? Perhaps you should stop reading them!

[Gwiwer]

29 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

At least for most in Australia, the local post office is not that far away, which is where the local postie drops them off.

 

We DON'T have to go to a delivery centre, so it appears that we are WAY more civilised than in the UK. Maybe the fact that we made savings, such as not delivering Saturdays years ago has helped.

I beg to differ on that score.  

 

In (geographically) most of Australia the nearest postal facility can be many miles away.  Yes it's often within a few minutes' drive in the main cities and there's often somewhere in the regional / rural towns but for the vastness of the outback - admittedly where very few people live - it's an RMB address or you take your mail into town when you do the weekly (pr even monthly) shopping run.  That trip might be a few hours.  RMB (Roadside Mail Box) is literally what it says; it can be a milk churn or other similar container suspended or placed by the end of a rural road which might in itself be miles long leading to one or a handful of properties.  

 

Meanwhile back in the UK .....

We now live in the most westerly mainland town; a place of 4500 or so permanent inhabitants and a thousand or so extra when the holiday cottages are occupied.  Our post office is an owner-managed business open seven days a week (though not Sunday afternoons) and in Australia would be called a "mixed business".  Royal Mail deliver letters in theory six days a week but in reality it's two or at best three.  Never on a Monday.  Usually on a Tuesday and Friday.  Very occasionally Wednesday, Thursday or Saturday.  They deliver parcels seven days a week.  That may well be to keep up with the other delivery services which also do that.  They must all have much the same rounds as they all seem to appear at around 4pm daily.  

 

There simply isn't the volume of mail to justify the six-day delivery commitment.  First class mail posted on Tuesday from elsewhere in the UK will typically arrive on Friday despite the "guarantee" of next-day delivery to the mainland.  But there are six-day collections from the post boxes and post office.  No doubt it's less staff time overall to drive out and make just five collections (of which three are from tiny roadside letterboxes) than to walk the entire town delivering a letter here and a letter there.  

 

It's a long time since the last Travelling Post Office train left for Bristol, London and connection to the rest of the nation.  It might be time to re-think that.  As the Royal Mail sinks slowly into commercial oblivion I wonder if there will come a time when it, along with parts of the railway, has to be placed in the hands of the "Operator of Last Resort" namely the Government.  That might be the best option in the long term.