E Tickets

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, sjp23480 said:

I think it reflects a wider shift in society where some people appear to be of the opinion that they should only pay when they have to and take when they can.

 

 

It's not a shift in society, although what they can take varies from time to time.

There's always been opportuniust thieves.   And there's always been some who are better at not getting caught, and who usually end up richer than honest folk.

[sjp23480]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

 

It's not a shift in society, although what they can take varies from time to time.

There's always been opportuniust thieves.   And there's always been some who are better at not getting caught, and who usually end up richer than honest folk.

You may be right.  I guess it's more apparent these days or, as I get older, I notice it more!

[The Stationmaster]

Just now, sjp23480 said:

You may be right.  I guess it's more apparent these days or, as I get older, I notice it more!

I think it might be more widely reported now than it used to be.  And let's be honest who doesn't love when the person who was prosecuted happens to be a solicitor, complete with a BR record of previous fare avoidance who was finally brought before the court because of his persistent efforts to avoid paying for his rail travel.

[Michael Hodgson]

Just now, The Stationmaster said:

I think it might be more widely reported now than it used to be.  And let's be honest who doesn't love when the person who was prosecuted happens to be a solicitor, complete with a BR record of previous fare avoidance who was finally brought before the court because of his persistent efforts to avoid paying for his rail travel.

Still not as good as the time the then Director of Public Prosecutions was caught kerb-crawling at Kings Cross and was obliged to report himself to himself!

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think it might be more widely reported now than it used to be.  And let's be honest who doesn't love when the person who was prosecuted happens to be a solicitor, complete with a BR record of previous fare avoidance who was finally brought before the court because of his persistent efforts to avoid paying for his rail travel.

It's certainly easier to see and hear stories about people evading paying (whether they're admitting or because they got caught), so it can give the impression of being more common. It would need the input from someone who's been on the front line of dealing with fare dodgers over many years to get some idea about whether it's a perception or an increase. There's probably an absolute increase (there are simply more people around after all), but whether there's a relative one is, I think, the important question.

 

As for e-tickets, no phone so I'll stick to paper. I've always found it a bit odd to use a pile of complex technology to do something that worked perfectly well without it.

[roythebus1]

All of which reminds me of a chat with an Underground ticket inspector back in the early 1970s when I was a guard on the District Line. the story went something like they had a hunch that someone was going from Turnham Green to Dagenham every day without having a valid ticket, just paying for a ticket at Dagenham from Becontree, the next stop back. the TTIs had bods on this particular day at TG, Becontree and Dagenham. One of the plain-clothes bods followed the suspect on the train all the way. At Dagenham the suspect paid for an excess from Becontree and he was questioned by a TTI at the barrier. It was suggested that he'd come from further away which he denied. He was told "we've got TTIs working today", not saying where exactly. Matey denied this, so was asked for identity. He had none so was asked where he worked. "Fords at Dagenham".  "In that case maybe the chap on the gate will identify you?" "No, we just walk in". The hunch worked, he was accompanied to the factory gates where there was indeed a security check. It was confirmed matey lived at Turnham Green and had worked at Fords for over 5 years.  It cost him a considerable amount in court and he lost his job at Fords. Sometimes a hunch works.

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Where there is price competition between operators - such as the ECML with some open access services - it is, just like an airline of ;bus operator;  so understandable that tickets might not be inter-valid.  You pays your money and you makes your choice. (although some inter-availability might be created during times of major route perturbation etc).  But that's little different from the past where you paid extra to travel on a Pullman or paid different fares at different times or on different days of the week.

Or like Southeastern, where you pay more if travelling via HS1 than on the old lines from Charing Cross etc. Sleeper supplements are perhaps a bit different in that you are, unarguably, paying for an additional service on top of a normal train ticket.

 

Bus tickets not being inter-valid is a pain but in some cases seems to apply even on parallel routes run by the same operator, because unlike rail they seem to think in terms of ‘routes’ rather than ‘lines’ (if that makes sense). The £2 single fares have removed a lot of this because it’s cheaper to just get two singles anyway, so you can come back on a different operator from your outward journey. There is a specific corridor near me (between two towns that were once linked by rail, but aren’t now) that is served by loads of different bus routes (which all go to different places at either end of this bit, but combine on this section to give a high frequency). It’s annoying when you have a return ticket and want to use it, but the first bus to turn up is the wrong operator and the one you bought the ticket from isn’t due for another half an hour.

 

The ECML choice only works up to a point, because unless for some reason the ticket price is very different I will generally just take the one that goes closest to the time when I want to go, which is also influenced by how smoothly it connects with the local trains at each end. This usually means LNER, or occasionally Grand Central.

[009 micro modeller]

On 14/07/2024 at 09:34, SM42 said:

The problem with paperless is it doesn't work without power. 

This is why I quite like the idea of smartcards as a concept (whereas the actual implementation of them has been very patchy and sometimes quite poorly done so far), in that they avoid a lot of paper and individual tickets but don’t require a charged phone (also not as tempting for thieves as a phone or a debit card or contactless payment card, as they are registered to a person and in some cases will only work for specific journeys. It would be good if the Key smartcards that Thameslink use didn’t require you to have one card for contactless pay-as-you-go and a separate one for pre-paid tickets. On the other hand I can’t really see how you’d overcome this, because if for instance you used your card normally to travel between King’s Cross and Alexandra Palace on PAYG, like an Oyster, but also sometimes used it to go from (say) King’s Cross to King’s Lynn on a pre-paid ticket loaded to the card, I’m not sure how the card would “know” what journey you wanted to do as you went through the barriers at King’s Cross.

[Wheatley]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

As for e-tickets, no phone so I'll stick to paper. I've always found it a bit odd to use a pile of complex technology to do something that worked perfectly well without it.

Ah but you're making the mistake of thinking that the idea of E-tickets is to make life easier for you, the paying customer. 

 

It isn't. Paper tickets need a  network full of ticket machines to issue them and complex gatelines to read them. Plus the actual cost of the paper tickets and the logistics chain required to make them available in the first place. An e-gateline which only has Blutooth-type scanners rather than paper ticket readers has considerably fewer moving parts to go wrong. 

 

But the real beauty of e-tickets is the same as smart meters - surge pricing. You can offer cheap tickets on empty trains and whack up the walk-on fare on busy trains in real time without any human intervention, and you also get all the usual customer demographics benefits  of knowing who's buying them and when they're using them. Advance purchase tickets, automatic passenger counting and flexible seat reservations are already here, this is just more of the same with knobs on. 

 

In ten years time there will be no paper tickets, no train operator will accept cash, and AI will be setting the fares. The 'x' number of days a year when it falls over and everyone goes for free is factored into the business case. 

Edited July 15 by Wheatley

[SM42]

44 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

This is why I quite like the idea of smartcards as a concept (whereas the actual implementation of them has been very patchy and sometimes quite poorly done so far), in that they avoid a lot of paper and individual tickets but don’t require a charged phone (also not as tempting for thieves as a phone or a debit card or contactless payment card, as they are registered to a person and in some cases will only work for specific journeys. It would be good if the Key smartcards that Thameslink use didn’t require you to have one card for contactless pay-as-you-go and a separate one for pre-paid tickets. On the other hand I can’t really see how you’d overcome this, because if for instance you used your card normally to travel between King’s Cross and Alexandra Palace on PAYG, like an Oyster, but also sometimes used it to go from (say) King’s Cross to King’s Lynn on a pre-paid ticket loaded to the card, I’m not sure how the card would “know” what journey you wanted to do as you went through the barriers at King’s Cross.

 

A smart card could work. 

 

Rather like Oyster you tap in but on the train. It deducts the fare to train destination and refunds unused travel when you tap as you get  off. 

 

Only problem is you would need thousands loaded onto it, or just avoid joining  the Glasgow train at Euston for a trip to Watford. 

 

Andy

Edited July 15 by SM42

[Reorte]

32 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Ah but you're making the mistake of thinking that the idea of E-tickets is to make life easier for you, the paying customer. 

 

It isn't. Paper tickets need a  network full of ticket machines to issue them and complex gatelines to read them. Plus the actual cost of the paper tickets and the logistics chain required to make them available in the first place. An e-gateline which only has Blutooth-type scanners rather than paper ticket readers has considerably fewer moving parts to go wrong. 

 

But the real beauty of e-tickets is the same as smart meters - surge pricing. You can offer cheap tickets on empty trains and whack up the walk-on fare on busy trains in real time without any human intervention, and you also get all the usual customer demographics benefits  of knowing who's buying them and when they're using them. Advance purchase tickets, automatic passenger counting and flexible seat reservations are already here, this is just more of the same with knobs on. 

 

In ten years time there will be no paper tickets, no train operator will accept cash, and AI will be setting the fares. The 'x' number of days a year when it falls over and everyone goes for free is factored into the business case. 

That'll be never travelling by train again then. You paint a convincing picture of the way the world in general is quite likely to be there. And I find it utterly depressing.

Edited July 15 by Reorte

[stewartingram]

Ah, I remember the days of getting a return from Cambrdge to London (both LST & KGX) for 6/8d (the price of a 45rpm single). No paper ticket - just an Edmunsun card ticket. Show it to the guy at at the gate at CBG, and when you got off in London.

Admitted it was an afternoon cheap rate, but 6/8d, that is about 33p in today's money.....

Travel up to KGX, behind a Baby Deltic; plenty of Pacifics to be seen after Hitchin, nice things like J52s shunting everywhere. Come back from LST (our REAL line from London); N7s everywhere in the suburbs, probably a B1 or a Brush 2 up front, comfortable Gresley coaches, .....

Fings ain't wot they used to be!

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

Rather like Oyster you tap in but on the train.

Why do it on the train, not on the platform or at the entrance to the station as currently though? And yes, I gather that one of the issues with having an Oyster-style pay-as-you-go nationally is the very high maximum fare before you’ve tapped out, but I was actually thinking more about ITSO cards that can have normal pre-paid tickets loaded onto them as well (which is how I used to use my Key smartcard on Thameslink - not as an alternative to Oyster, but as an alternative to a paper season ticket, i.e. pre-paid for a defined route rather than PAYG). I was just wondering if it was (despite Thameslink currently not allowing it, as far as I can tell) technically possible to have PAYG and pre-paid tickets on the same card. According to the Beauty of Transport article I linked to earlier it should be technically possible to load bus, suburban rail and intercity rail tickets onto the same card (though it isn’t currently as the system is too fragmented) but I don’t know if this is contingent on all of them being actual pre-paid tickets, rather than a mixture of pre-paid and TfL-style PAYG.

[melmerby]

On 10/07/2024 at 00:15, adb968008 said:

Trainline leads you to make errors

Can't you use a TOC's ticket system? No fee and free postage.

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Can't you use a TOC's ticket system? No fee and free postage.

Often Trainline somehow ends up being cheaper, despite the booking fee, possibly because it calculates and applies split ticketing automatically. I wonder if this relates to whether your journey involves multiple operators though. It’s a little annoying to have to pay £1 to collect paper tickets from a ticket machine with them, but I suppose they are printing it where they wouldn’t otherwise have to.

[GrumpyPenguin]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

That'll be never travelling by train again then. You paint a convincing picture of the way the world in general is quite likely to be there. And I find it utterly depressing.

Me too !

[SM42]

56 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Why do it on the train, not on the platform or at the entrance to the station as currently though? And yes, I gather that one of the issues with having an Oyster-style pay-as-you-go nationally is the very high maximum fare before you’ve tapped out, but I was actually thinking more about ITSO cards that can have normal pre-paid tickets loaded onto them as well (which is how I used to use my Key smartcard on Thameslink - not as an alternative to Oyster, but as an alternative to a paper season ticket, i.e. pre-paid for a defined route rather than PAYG). I was just wondering if it was (despite Thameslink currently not allowing it, as far as I can tell) technically possible to have PAYG and pre-paid tickets on the same card. According to the Beauty of Transport article I linked to earlier it should be technically possible to load bus, suburban rail and intercity rail tickets onto the same card (though it isn’t currently as the system is too fragmented) but I don’t know if this is contingent on all of them being actual pre-paid tickets, rather than a mixture of pre-paid and TfL-style PAYG.

 

You can't tap at the station as it doesn't know which train you are catching, just where you get on and off. 

 

Granted with a simpler system of tickets and a simpler railway you could do it at the station.  

 

Andy

[009 micro modeller]

36 minutes ago, SM42 said:

You can't tap at the station as it doesn't know which train you are catching, just where you get on and off. 

OK I see. Because for suburban and metro routes (the ones that actually use pay-as-you-go at the moment) it generally doesn’t matter what specific train you get (apart from peak/off-peak) so you are basically just letting yourself into the rail network at the origin station, and then out at the destination. Whereas for longer distance services with different pricing on specific trains (though some routes seem to have done away with this) that doesn’t really work. But again, you can use ITSO cards to store normal pre-paid tickets (equivalent to the kind you would usually get issued as either a paper ticket or a PDF e-ticket) so their use doesn’t necessarily imply pay-as-you-go.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I was actually thinking more about ITSO cards that can have normal pre-paid tickets loaded onto them as well

Aren't Oyster cards transitioning to the ITSO system?

They suffered from being an outlier as everyone else was using ITSO cards

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know if it applies to all of them but certain Oyster cards creata record of every journey made using them. A friend of mine  found this out from a London 'bus driver some  years ago and was even more impressed when the driver used the ticket machine to print outa list of every journey he had made in the past few months on TfL.  

 

So Oyster could - if that still applies - simply provide journey details to a central point which then bills you accordingly.

[melmerby]

If you enter the LU network tapping in at a station "A" and travel to a hundred different stations without leaving the network, arrive back and tap out at "A", how much will you get charged? 🙂

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

If you enter the LU network tapping in at a station "A" and travel to a hundred different stations without leaving the network, arrive back and tap out at "A", how much will you get charged? 🙂

The system will know how long it will have been between your entry and exit so I suspect there will be something built into the system to cater for it.  i don't know what happens if you fail to either tap in or tap out but presumably 'something in the system' is able to take that into account as well?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The system will know how long it will have been between your entry and exit so I suspect there will be something built into the system to cater for it.  i don't know what happens if you fail to either tap in or tap out but presumably 'something in the system' is able to take that into account as well?

It would need to have some logic along those lines to prevent some types fraud involving the use of two cards, tapping in with one and out with the other in various places to give the impression of a lesser total journey than was in fact the case.

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't know if it applies to all of them but certain Oyster cards creata record of every journey made using them. A friend of mine  found this out from a London 'bus driver some  years ago and was even more impressed when the driver used the ticket machine to print outa list of every journey he had made in the past few months on TfL.  

 

So Oyster could - if that still applies - simply provide journey details to a central point which then bills you accordingly.

Does that work on buses, given that you only tap once on boarding, rather than in and out as on the tube?

 

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you enter the LU network tapping in at a station "A" and travel to a hundred different stations without leaving the network, arrive back and tap out at "A", how much will you get charged? 🙂

‘Same station exit’ so I think you would get charged a maximum fare (it’s supposed to deter fraud, where people tap in and then immediately out again I think).

 

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

Aren't Oyster cards transitioning to the ITSO system?

They suffered from being an outlier as everyone else was using ITSO cards

I didn’t realise they weren’t compatible.

[eatus-maximus]

18 hours ago, melmerby said:

Can't you use a TOC's ticket system? No fee and free postage.

 

18 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Often Trainline somehow ends up being cheaper, despite the booking fee, possibly because it calculates and applies split ticketing automatically. I wonder if this relates to whether your journey involves multiple operators though. It’s a little annoying to have to pay £1 to collect paper tickets from a ticket machine with them, but I suppose they are printing it where they wouldn’t otherwise have to.

 

Trainline are often used for the backend of the TOC websales, however, the Trainline website is one of the few offering split tickets.

 

For the best value fares, look journeys up on Trainline, make a note of the fares offered, then buy those tickets from a ticket office or one of the TOC websites.

 

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you enter the LU network tapping in at a station "A" and travel to a hundred different stations without leaving the network, arrive back and tap out at "A", how much will you get charged? 🙂

 

LUL, as with many tap-in-tap-out systems, has a time cut off, after which an 'incomplete journey fare' would be charged. If you tapped out after this time period, you would get two 'incomplete journey fares'.