E Tickets

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, eatus-maximus said:

 

 

If you are unable to show a valid ticket (or produce a smartcard containing a valid ticket) upon request, you are treated as having not purchased a ticket, under the Railway Byelaws and the National Rail Conditions of Travel (which you agree to when you buy a ticket).

 

agreed but thats not the discussion point.

Having an invalid ticket is not intent to travel without a valid ticket.

The bar being set is different.

 

 

 

Edited July 11 by adb968008

[eatus-maximus]

On 10/07/2024 at 22:49, adb968008 said:

 

agreed but thats not the discussion point.

Having an invalid ticket is not intent to travel without a valid ticket.

The bar being set is different.

 

 

 

 

If staff felt that the passenger had 'intent' to travel without a valid ticket, they wouldn't be giving a new ticket or a Penalty Fare, the passenger will have details taken (or the Police called) and this will be passed on to the relevant prosecution team.

 

Travelling with an invalid ticket is still travelling without a valid ticket. The burden of proof is simple. Do you hold a valid ticket for the journey you are making?

 

In what way do you think the railway should deal with it differently?

[jim.snowdon]

On 10/07/2024 at 12:22, rodent279 said:

Paper tickets aren't infallible

Neither are passengers. A fair proportion seem unable to comprehend both audio and visual messages about their trains, or fail to listen at all. They don't understand instructions, or the ticket that they have purchased. And in amongst them are a proportion that are intent on defrauding the train operator. The latter have a near infinite number of excuses, ranging from the plausible to the ridiculous, and not surprisingly, revenue protection staff have heard them all before.

It comes as no surprise that the railway companies have to be hard hearted. A penalty fare can always be challenged, in court if necessary.

[Wickham Green too]

18 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Neither are passengers. A fair proportion seem unable to comprehend both audio and visual messages about their trains, or fail to listen at all. ...

Unfortunately some are so busy jabbering away to themselves that the rest of us struggle to hear what's being said. ☹️

[SM42]

The flat phone dodge could be solved by the ticket inspector, guard or whatever they are called this week, having a power bank and universal connector. 

 

The phone battery could thus be unflat for the ticket to be inspected. 

 

I do wonder though why people who are not travelling alone have to pass the phone around to the others in the group 

 

Why don't the other passengers in the party take a photo of their ticket on their phone? ( presuming they have their own phone)

 

A simiar pass the phone  game can be seen at airports. 

 

I just took a photo of Mrs SM42's phone screen showing my boarding pass  and used that. 

 

In fact any e ticket we do this. I photograph her ticket too. 

 

That way there are at least two copies, the chances of both phones dying at the same time are not high.

 

Andy

[rodent279]

I would think it is not beyond the wit of man for a ticket inspector to have suitable equipment to check whether a valid e-ticket for the journey has been issued to a given email address & phone number, and to check whether that ticket has been activated. 

 

[Oldddudders]

7 hours ago, SM42 said:

The flat phone dodge could be solved by the ticket inspector, guard or whatever they are called this week, having a power bank and universal connector. 

 

The phone battery could thus be unflat for the ticket to be inspected. 

Phone chargers have been a bit Tower of Babel, with different brands each having their own favourite. From 1.1.25 that changes for new phones in the EU, which must use USB-C. Apple, maybe others, are mightily unimpressed, although not sure why, as many Apple devices e.g. laptops, already use USB-C. But they see this as regulation by an overseas authority, and Un-American, I think. Not sure where this leaves UK products in future. 

[GrumpyPenguin]

Personally I will always prefer a paper ticket even though I could loose it but it's up to me to be careful.

 

Certainly, a paper ticket can get lost as can a mobile phone.

 

The real problem with keeping your life only on your phone is when you loose the phone or it fails - you could in effect become stranded a long way from home, no ticket, no money & no way of getting any money or even "phoning home".

[APOLLO]

For a long / expensive journeys I have e ticket with printed backup - 2 copies, one in wallet, one in bag.

 

Minimum cost, maximum peace of mind.

 

Brit15

[SM42]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Phone chargers have been a bit Tower of Babel, with different brands each having their own favourite. From 1.1.25 that changes for new phones in the EU, which must use USB-C. Apple, maybe others, are mightily unimpressed, although not sure why, as many Apple devices e.g. laptops, already use USB-C. But they see this as regulation by an overseas authority, and Un-American, I think. Not sure where this leaves UK products in future. 

 

Charging cables with multiple plugs at the device end are available. Just pick the right plug for the device. 

 

 

Andy

[adb968008]

20 hours ago, eatus-maximus said:

 

If staff felt that the passenger had 'intent' to travel without a valid ticket, they wouldn't be giving a new ticket or a Penalty Fare, the passenger will have details taken (or the Police called) and this will be passed on to the relevant prosecution team.

 

Travelling with an invalid ticket is still travelling without a valid ticket. The burden of proof is simple. Do you hold a valid ticket for the journey you are making?

 

In what way do you think the railway should deal with it differently?

Your still missing the point..

 

you see a debranded Southern Green class 171 pull in to Derby station. 
you have a ticket for Chesterfield with XC.

you board, find it’s an EMR train running late, but less late than the XC train after it, so it’s actually the right time for your eticket.. if you can find that data easy enough on it.

 

and now have to defend that in court… fair or not fair ?

 

exactly how much is the passenger expected to know about our railways ?

imo the redress for these situations is missing, adhoc and too discretionary… imo there should be a resolution process before the legal process because the knowledge bar of the customer is too high and staffing levels to assist is too low  imo.

 

its not possible to get on the wrong bus company, and whilst you can get on the wrong bus the driver is the catch all.

 

with an airline it’s virtually impossible to be on the wrong plane due to systems in place.

 

for those who don’t pay, fair enough they are evading a fair. For those who day pay imo the legal route is too strong and being used to exploit passengers, and some level of innocence before guilt should exist and mitigating circumstances should be considered… 

 

if some jumped on a train to avoid a violent attack and had their phone taken on a platform is a court summons for fare evasion a proportionate next step response ? Consider they do have a valid ticket, they just cannot produce it in the circumstances.

its very possible to have a device stolen, but the 1889 act doesn’t consider this as stealing paper tickets of passengers probably wasn’t high on any criminals list.

 

All hypothetical but every infraction. No matter how extreme or small today is in the same catch all and subjective to the personality and mindset of the railway official they interact with to act as decision maker of the persons fate which can be very adhoc and random… Sure some staff have compassion and understanding but there are others who do not.

 

Thats before we consider cases where passengers have disabilities and find they cannot exit where planned, vulnerable people all gets lumped with the same eticket issues..into the same profit centre bucket of the likes of Transport Investigations Limited etc who’s remit is profit not redress.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, SM42 said:

Why don't the other passengers in the party take a photo of their ticket on their phone? ( presuming they have their own phone)

Are screenshots of e-tickets accepted though? I was under the impression they aren’t always.

 

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Apple, maybe others, are mightily unimpressed, although not sure why, as many Apple devices e.g. laptops, already use USB-C.

Some of them have the end that plugs into the phone as their own design, and then the other end plugs into (in the UK) a 3-pin wall plug using a USB. However I think on some of them they had started to have a different proprietary design rather than the USB. Is it just the end that plugs into the wall plug that the EU is regulating, or the one that plugs into the device as well?

 

1 hour ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

The real problem with keeping your life only on your phone is when you loose the phone or it fails - you could in effect become stranded a long way from home, no ticket, no money & no way of getting any money or even "phoning home".

Another factor is that (I suspect like many people) if my phone has limited data or battery left on a long journey by public transport I want to conserve that to use it for journey planning, checking departure times, phoning/messaging people to let them know that I’m running late etc., not use it to load tickets.
 

In terms of different alternatives to paper train tickets, as a concept I find plastic smart cards (onto which tickets can be loaded - they don’t necessarily have to exclusively be pay-as-you-go) a better idea than e-tickets. I used to use one (a Key smartcard, loaded with a season ticket) for Thameslink commuting, but no longer do now that I have a less regular work pattern with more weekends (so it is now cheaper for me to use individually bought paper tickets, and having a railcard means these are currently also cheaper than the contactless PAYG fare for the bits outside London). Apparently you can also use the Key like an Oyster card, but not on the same card as the one you load season tickets or other pre-paid tickets onto.

 

There would seem to be some limitations to using cards like these for intercity trains where you book on a specific service, on a specific route at a specific time. But in theory the card could hold the seat reservation and journey information, to be checked on the train (and paper tickets similarly let you through ticket barriers but require somebody on the train to check if the ticket is valid for that particular service). There’s an article about these: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/2017/07/05/the-regrettable-death-and-strange-second-life-of-the-integrated-transport-smartcard/

 

I note that my railcard currently is actually a credit card-sized plastic card, so if ITSO cards were widely used it could be replaced with a similar sized smartcard, holding both the tickets themselves and the proof of entitlement to reduced fares for railcard holders. 

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

you see a debranded Southern Green class 171 pull in to Derby station. 
you have a ticket for Chesterfield with XC.

you board, find it’s an EMR train running late, but less late than the XC train after it, so it’s actually the right time for your eticket.. if you can find that data easy enough on it.

Station announcements, departure screens and online live departure information generally show the TOC and both the scheduled and actual departure time though, so I’m not sure this is as much of a problem as suggested.

[SM42]

3 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Are screenshots of e-tickets accepted though? I was under the impression they aren’t always.

 

Some of them have the end that plugs into the phone as their own design, and then the other end plugs into (in the UK) a 3-pin wall plug using a USB. However I think on some of them they had started to have a different proprietary design rather than the USB. Is it just the end that plugs into the wall plug that the EU is regulating, or the one that plugs into the device as well?

 

 

Screen shots / photos have worked for me and the person with the original is usually next in the queue. 

 

I can't see how you can sell multiple tickets to one device and expect that one device to be used several times

 It defies logic. 

 

One QR code per person, if it can read it, it should and in my experience, does work.  The system should know if it's valid or not. 

 

The EU standardisation is at the device end. 

 

The wall end, each country has its own standards and they tend to be the same anyway all over EU already. 

 

Legislating the device is end is easy as each new one can be built to conform to the single market standard.. 

The old non standard devices will slowly go out of use as people upgrade. 

 

 

 

Andy

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Phone chargers have been a bit Tower of Babel, with different brands each having their own favourite. From 1.1.25 that changes for new phones in the EU, which must use USB-C. Apple, maybe others, are mightily unimpressed, although not sure why, as many Apple devices e.g. laptops, already use USB-C. But they see this as regulation by an overseas authority, and Un-American, I think. Not sure where this leaves UK products in future. 

We can use 3-pin plugs and square electricity if we want now that we've left the EU. 

 

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

For a long / expensive journeys I have e ticket with printed backup - 2 copies, one in wallet, one in bag.

 

Minimum cost, maximum peace of mind.

 

Brit15

The paperless society in action!

 

The paper ticket is dead; you don't have to carry that on you any more.

So now you're carrying an E-ticket and two paper tickets.

[rodent279]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Your still missing the point..

 

you see a debranded Southern Green class 171 pull in to Derby station. 
you have a ticket for Chesterfield with XC.

you board, find it’s an EMR train running late, but less late than the XC train after it, so it’s actually the right time for your eticket.. if you can find that data easy enough on it.

 

and now have to defend that in court… fair or not fair ?

 

exactly how much is the passenger expected to know about our railways ?

imo the redress for these situations is missing, adhoc and too discretionary… imo there should be a resolution process before the legal process because the knowledge bar of the customer is too high and staffing levels to assist is too low  imo.

 

its not possible to get on the wrong bus company, and whilst you can get on the wrong bus the driver is the catch all.

 

with an airline it’s virtually impossible to be on the wrong plane due to systems in place.

 

for those who don’t pay, fair enough they are evading a fair. For those who day pay imo the legal route is too strong and being used to exploit passengers, and some level of innocence before guilt should exist and mitigating circumstances should be considered… 

 

if some jumped on a train to avoid a violent attack and had their phone taken on a platform is a court summons for fare evasion a proportionate next step response ? Consider they do have a valid ticket, they just cannot produce it in the circumstances.

its very possible to have a device stolen, but the 1889 act doesn’t consider this as stealing paper tickets of passengers probably wasn’t high on any criminals list.

 

All hypothetical but every infraction. No matter how extreme or small today is in the same catch all and subjective to the personality and mindset of the railway official they interact with to act as decision maker of the persons fate which can be very adhoc and random… Sure some staff have compassion and understanding but there are others who do not.

 

Thats before we consider cases where passengers have disabilities and find they cannot exit where planned, vulnerable people all gets lumped with the same eticket issues..into the same profit centre bucket of the likes of Transport Investigations Limited etc who’s remit is profit not redress.

 

 

 

 

Maybe the answer is a simpler ticketing system, with tickets valid on all trains on which that route runs? Suppose that would be anathema to individual TOCs who want to be attracting people to use their own offers, but as all are supposed to be run as contracts to DfT now that should not be an issue. Open Access operators could have it written into their contract that they must accept tickets that are valid on the route that they're running trains on.

[009 micro modeller]

11 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Maybe the answer is a simpler ticketing system, with tickets valid on all trains on which that route runs? Suppose that would be anathema to individual TOCs who want to be attracting people to use their own offers, but as all are supposed to be run as contracts to DfT now that should not be an issue. Open Access operators could have it written into their contract that they must accept tickets that are valid on the route that they're running trains on.

How would that work on lines that have both an intercity service and a slower suburban one (e.g. WCML and ECML as far as Peterborough)? Usually the former is more expensive than the latter, and in some cases has been since before privatisation.

[Flanged Wheel]

We (a family of four with two pre-teen boys) have just spent two years travelling the world. With one exception (a ferry in the Philippines), we have been able to use electronic tickets for travel on a wide range of planes, trains, buses and boats. All of these were bought online and sent to our phones. We’ve had absolutely no issues anywhere with this - including using one device for multiple tickets (I stand at the gate and scan each ticket individually so that the rest of the family can go through the barriers and then I follow at the end).

 

I can understand all of the concerns that have been raised above (and we always travel with a fully charged emergency battery to address that particular issue) but the use of e-tickets is globally widespread and (for us at any rate) largely problem free. We’re probably an outlier in terms of our comfort with technology and our willingness to be reliant on it but then we have a more liberal approach to risk than most (hence wandering around the world with our children in the first place)…!

[eatus-maximus]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Your still missing the point..

 

you see a debranded Southern Green class 171 pull in to Derby station. 
you have a ticket for Chesterfield with XC.

you board, find it’s an EMR train running late, but less late than the XC train after it, so it’s actually the right time for your eticket.. if you can find that data easy enough on it.

 

and now have to defend that in court… fair or not fair ?

 

 

You board because the departure screens are wrong and the announcement was wrong and you didn't check with the dispatcher at all? Or you just board the wrong train because it's the right time of day, and as we all know the railway always runs on time, and then expect the railway to pick up the pieces?

 

There's a certain amount of responsibility that the passenger can't avoid. If it's the former, then I'd say you have a fair point, but otherwise it's not as one sided as you paint the picture.

 

I have been in the former position, though I didn't check with staff, and yes, I bought a new ticket for part of the journey, but that was one occasion in nearly thirty years of travelling almost daily by train. So in my opinion, it is not a common thing to happen. 

 

As for the court bit? We'll come to that later....

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

exactly how much is the passenger expected to know about our railways ?

 

 

Good question. I'd say atleast know what time train you are booked to travel on, and, if you have a seat reservation, what that reservation is. Ideally know the final destination of the train if you can. Perhaps know what a departure board is and how to use one. Might help if you know which station to turn up too (genuinely, people turn up to wrong station for their train every day!).

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

imo the redress for these situations is missing, adhoc and too discretionary… imo there should be a resolution process before the legal process because the knowledge bar of the customer is too high and staffing levels to assist is too low  imo.

 

 

I don't think the knowledge bar is too high for the average journey, but I will agree that staffing levels are too low. The information is out there to be found and where there are staff, people can ask if unsure, they just tend not to.

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its not possible to get on the wrong bus company, and whilst you can get on the wrong bus the driver is the catch all.

 

 

Tell that to the people of Oldham when the 'Bee Network' came in and the buses changed operator overnight (First to Stagecoach, but the buses only have 'Bee Network' on them). Loads of people using the apps to buy tickets (some weekly tickets) to save time boarding and then finding they couldn't use them because it was 'the wrong app' - new ticket, no refund.

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

with an airline it’s virtually impossible to be on the wrong plane due to systems in place.

 

 

But people have turned up to the wrong flights, granted not getting on the flight, but not going for the right one. If you put in place the systems the airports have on railway stations, you'd take a long time to get anywhere.

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

for those who don’t pay, fair enough they are evading a fair. For those who day pay imo the legal route is too strong and being used to exploit passengers, and some level of innocence before guilt should exist and mitigating circumstances should be considered… 

 

 

And then every fare evader will claim those circumstances exist for them.

 

I remember back when I lived down south, I heard a passenger tell her friend (I presume) that they had been stopped without a ticket that morning and given a Penalty Fare. They were a bit put out because the Penalty Fare was double the fare they should have paid. So on the return journey they didn't buy a ticket, and, surprise, surprise, they were given another Penalty Fare, but they continued to say it was unfair they had to pay again because they had already paid double.

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

if some jumped on a train to avoid a violent attack and had their phone taken on a platform is a court summons for fare evasion a proportionate next step response ? Consider they do have a valid ticket, they just cannot produce it in the circumstances.

 

 

Have you missed the bit where they only go to court if staff feel there is intent to avoid paying a fare AND the prosecutions team go forward with it?

 

Do you think this is likely to be a common occurrence?

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its very possible to have a device stolen, but the 1889 act doesn’t consider this as stealing paper tickets of passengers probably wasn’t high on any criminals list.

 

 

It's also a very common 'excuse' for not having a ticket. Your ticket could be on your phone, in your wallet, buried at the bottom of your suitcase, it might be stolen, lost, given to a friend, eaten by a dog, doesn't matter, if you can't show it upon request you are treated the same under the terms and conditions.

 

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

All hypothetical but every infraction. No matter how extreme or small today is in the same catch all and subjective to the personality and mindset of the railway official they interact with to act as decision maker of the persons fate which can be very adhoc and random… Sure some staff have compassion and understanding but there are others who do not.

 

 

I'm sorry, were you advocating for more randomness or less?

 

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Are screenshots of e-tickets accepted though? I was under the impression they aren’t always.

 

 

Yes, they are currently, as the barcode on them is unique to each ticket.

 

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

In terms of different alternatives to paper train tickets, as a concept I find plastic smart cards (onto which tickets can be loaded - they don’t necessarily have to exclusively be pay-as-you-go) a better idea than e-tickets. I used to use one (a Key smartcard, loaded with a season ticket) for Thameslink commuting, but no longer do now that I have a less regular work pattern with more weekends (so it is now cheaper for me to use individually bought paper tickets, and having a railcard means these are currently also cheaper than the contactless PAYG fare for the bits outside London). Apparently you can also use the Key like an Oyster card, but not on the same card as the one you load season tickets or other pre-paid tickets onto.

 

There would seem to be some limitations to using cards like these for intercity trains where you book on a specific service, on a specific route at a specific time. But in theory the card could hold the seat reservation and journey information, to be checked on the train (and paper tickets similarly let you through ticket barriers but require somebody on the train to check if the ticket is valid for that particular service). There’s an article about these: https://thebeautyoftransport.com/2017/07/05/the-regrettable-death-and-strange-second-life-of-the-integrated-transport-smartcard/

 

I note that my railcard currently is actually a credit card-sized plastic card, so if ITSO cards were widely used it could be replaced with a similar sized smartcard, holding both the tickets themselves and the proof of entitlement to reduced fares for railcard holders. 

 

 

Smartcards have their place, however too many people do not know what their smartcards hold, even when they are given a receipt with the details on it!

 

As an example, a passenger just yesterday asked me to check the end date on their week season ticket as they though it might expire that day. I checked and the ticket started two days previously.

 

Another recently had the receipt on display with their smartcard, but clearly didn't actually know what was on the receipt. I didn't even have to scan the card to answer their question.

 

4 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Maybe the answer is a simpler ticketing system, with tickets valid on all trains on which that route runs? Suppose that would be anathema to individual TOCs who want to be attracting people to use their own offers, but as all are supposed to be run as contracts to DfT now that should not be an issue. Open Access operators could have it written into their contract that they must accept tickets that are valid on the route that they're running trains on.

 

They tried 'simplification' back in 2009, it is more complex now than it was before they 'simplified'.

 

Their latest attempt at simplification is removing return tickets and going for surge pricing based on people booking specific trains only. This is to be 'revenue neutral', meaning cheaper single fares, but more expensive return journeys, and all more reliant on technology that regularly fails.

[009 micro modeller]

35 minutes ago, eatus-maximus said:

people turn up to wrong station for their train every day!

How do they manage that?

 

37 minutes ago, eatus-maximus said:

Tell that to the people of Oldham when the 'Bee Network' came in and the buses changed operator overnight (First to Stagecoach, but the buses only have 'Bee Network' on them). Loads of people using the apps to buy tickets (some weekly tickets) to save time boarding and then finding they couldn't use them because it was 'the wrong app' - new ticket, no refund.

If the idea of the Bee Network is (as has been claimed) to create a TfL-style bus system then will it eventually involve a flat (or at least simplified) contactless fare system?

 

39 minutes ago, eatus-maximus said:

Yes, they are currently, as the barcode on them is unique to each ticket.

I thought they should be, I just remember seeing someone on a train having their e-ticket checked and for some reason they wanted the original one, not a screenshot (but of course the screenshot should work just as well, given they’re generally in PDF form anyway).

 

41 minutes ago, eatus-maximus said:

Smartcards have their place, however too many people do not know what their smartcards hold, even when they are given a receipt with the details on it!

 

As an example, a passenger just yesterday asked me to check the end date on their week season ticket as they though it might expire that day. I checked and the ticket started two days previously.

 

Another recently had the receipt on display with their smartcard, but clearly didn't actually know what was on the receipt. I didn't even have to scan the card to answer their question.

Ideally they’d be linked to an account and people would be able to check/remind themselves what tickets they’d loaded to their card.

[eatus-maximus]

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

How do they manage that?

 

Often, they type in the wrong station on a journey planner, sometimes they make assumptions about the origin without actually looking at the journey plan. The journey planner will give a time for the transfer across to the correct station, rather than correcting the origin. 

 

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

If the idea of the Bee Network is (as has been claimed) to create a TfL-style bus system then will it eventually involve a flat (or at least simplified) contactless fare system?

 

 

There is a flat fare for single tickets, there is also a flat fare for weekly tickets. The problem was that First Bus had the same flat fare for longer through their app (as a First Bus only ticket), and a First Bus only weekly that was cheaper than the 'Bee Network' fare.

 

First Bus had their app, Stagecoach have their app, and Bee Network (TfGM) have their app.

 

Initially some Stagecoach drivers thought it was only Stagecoach apps allowed on the bus as they were employed by Stagecoach, whilst many people were unaware of the operator change and bought tickets on the First Bus app, as no-one had actually said it was changing under 'Bee Network'.

 

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought they should be, I just remember seeing someone on a train having their e-ticket checked and for some reason they wanted the original one, not a screenshot (but of course the screenshot should work just as well, given they’re generally in PDF form anyway).

 

 

e-tickets and m-tickets (print at home) used to be a different design, they are the same standard now. Railcards still need to be the original Railcard and not a screenshot.

 

2 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Ideally they’d be linked to an account and people would be able to check/remind themselves what tickets they’d loaded to their card.

 

If they buy online, they'll have an online account, if they buy at a station they get given a receipt.

[009 micro modeller]

57 minutes ago, eatus-maximus said:

There is a flat fare for single tickets, there is also a flat fare for weekly tickets. The problem was that First Bus had the same flat fare for longer through their app (as a First Bus only ticket), and a First Bus only weekly that was cheaper than the 'Bee Network' fare.

 

First Bus had their app, Stagecoach have their app, and Bee Network (TfGM) have their app.

 

Initially some Stagecoach drivers thought it was only Stagecoach apps allowed on the bus as they were employed by Stagecoach, whilst many people were unaware of the operator change and bought tickets on the First Bus app, as no-one had actually said it was changing under 'Bee Network'.

Yes but if they’re trying to replicate how it works in London then it needs to be a unified system, i.e. no operator-specific ticketing (though despite that, the actual operation of the buses in London is still done by the sort of companies you’d generally expect to run buses (e.g. Arriva) under contract to TfL).

[eatus-maximus]

38 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Yes but if they’re trying to replicate how it works in London then it needs to be a unified system, i.e. no operator-specific ticketing (though despite that, the actual operation of the buses in London is still done by the sort of companies you’d generally expect to run buses (e.g. Arriva) under contract to TfL).

 

That is what they are aiming for, but it's only as each area comes in to the 'Bee Network' that the changeover happens, and when it does, it seems like there isn't any sort of transition period.

 

This is now dangerously close to going off topic though.

[GrumpyPenguin]

We seem to be dividing into those who are happy to have their tickets held on their phones & those who prefer a paper ticket.

 

The answer is simple - we (the customer) makes their choice & the companies should provide the choice - the same way that retail/hospitality should allow the customers the choice to pay by cash or by card.

 

Personally, I want a paper ticket for travel & if I go into a retail establishmenmt that only takes card payments it's also my last visit.

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

The answer is simple - we (the customer) makes their choice & the companies should provide the choice - the same way that retail/hospitality should allow the customers the choice to pay by cash or by card.

The problem in the case of railway ticketing is that having multiple ticket formats has the potential to further complicate an already complex (some would say overcomplicated) ticketing and fare system.

[GrumpyPenguin]

Just now, 009 micro modeller said:

The problem in the case of railway ticketing is that having multiple ticket formats has the potential to further complicate an already complex (some would say overcomplicated) ticketing and fare system.

Please expand as I don't see the issue - I've always had credit card size tickets.