E Tickets

[sjp23480]

10 hours ago, APOLLO said:

For a long / expensive journeys I have e ticket with printed backup - 2 copies, one in wallet, one in bag.

 

Minimum cost, maximum peace of mind.

 

Brit15

Good idea.

 

I was travelling from Kent to Liverpool. Had paper tickets issued at the station. Managed to loose the outbound ticket by the time I got to Euston.

 

Decided to do the right thing to try to get a duplicate issued at Euston. I got told I had to buy a replacement ticket. 

 

Despite having an email confirmation, Southeastern website receipt, ticket receipt issued on collection and a return ticket.

 

Duly coughed up £138 at the Euston ticket office, walked straight on the train,  no onboard check during the journey and walked straight out at Liverpool. 

 

£138 for nothing. :-(

 

I always opt for e-tickets on the basis I am much less likely to lose my phone. 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

9 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Please expand as I don't see the issue - I've always had credit card size tickets.

Exactly but if you now have multiple possible ways of paying or ticketing (e-ticket, ticket loaded to smartcard, paper, contactless PAYG for metro/suburban routes) AND in some cases multiple fares for exactly the same journey and class of travel (depending on when it was booked, whether you use split ticketing etc.) isn’t that potentially going to confuse people?

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, sjp23480 said:

I was travelling from Kent to Liverpool. Had paper tickets issued at the station. Managed to loose the outbound ticket by the time I got to Euston.

 

Decided to do the right thing to try to get a duplicate issued at Euston. I got told I had to buy a replacement ticket. 

 

Despite having an email confirmation, Southeastern website receipt, ticket receipt issued on collection and a return ticket.

 

Duly coughed up £138 at the Euston ticket office, walked straight on the train,  no onboard check during the journey and walked straight out at Liverpool. 

Someone could have all those things but then pass their outward portion to someone else to use, so offering duplicates would open the door to fraud.  That will remain a problem as long as paper tickets aren't uniquely identified.  

 

With an e-ticket, you can make as many copies as you like but the system should pick it up if more than one person uses them.  

 

Some paper tickets are now issued with barcodes like e-tickets, and have to be scanned in the same way.  My guess is that all paper tickets will eventually do so, allowing the ticket machines to get rid of the costly transport mechanisms in favour of a simple optical scanner, with no moving parts and positioned more conveniently than it is on the current barriers.  

 

The main obstacle to this is probably TfL, whose barriers don't have optical scanners, so tickets for journeys with a cross-London leg can only be issued as credit card with magnetic stripe.  

[SM42]

Getting on the wrong plane is possible. I know someone who did it and had to be let off just before they closed doors. 

I've also heard cabin staff question the abilities of gate staff when someone tried to board with a ticket to elsewhere. 

 

The issue of what train you are on and does your ticket cover it is a common one. 

 

I've seen it perhaps on 1 in 10 journeys. LNW  passengers on Avanti and vice versa, Chiltern passengers on Avanti ( wrong station as well) and the old chestnut of you should be on the next one / one before 

 

Expecting the passenger to have intimate knowledge of the jumble of train operators and the geography of the UK, (where is High Wycombe anyway and why can't you travel via it?)  is a bit much.

Reduce staff so there's no one to ask, if you feel, or even know, you need to anyway and there are profits to be made. 

 

Not all travellers have the railway nouse we may have.

I had to help a lady yesterday to get the right train to end up at the right station for her connection and she found it stressful just sorting that out. 

This was after I'd stopped her from boarding a train that had just terminated and the next one she was going to catch didn't stop where her connection was.

It was pure chance that she asked me to help her, otherwise she would be none the wiser till it was too late.

 

Add in the foreign tourist element and the potential for confusion  is real. .

 

Regardless of which form of ticket you have, if you don't know your way around then it could be an expensive day and there seems to be no effective  way to check once you are on the platform. 

 

Andy

[mezzoman253]

Perhaps all trains should have ticket readers and if your ticket isn't valid for that train you can't get on it.  Of course that would never happen due to cost of implimentation, and delays to boarding at busy stations.

 

In Germany the train nimber and platform is on the ticket which helps boarding the correct train. Not infalable due to platform changes, but minimises getting the wrong train.

 

 

 

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Exactly but if you now have multiple possible ways of paying or ticketing (e-ticket, ticket loaded to smartcard, paper, contactless PAYG for metro/suburban routes) AND in some cases multiple fares for exactly the same journey and class of travel (depending on when it was booked, whether you use split ticketing etc.) isn’t that potentially going to confuse people?

Not me, then again when I travel I always wear a pair of trousers with at least one secure pocket just for tickets & another one for emergency cash.

To end up in real trouble I would have to lose my trousers !

[The Border Reiver]

Belts and braces for me..  I print the e-tickets and they are also on my phone...

[009 micro modeller]

56 minutes ago, mezzoman253 said:

Perhaps all trains should have ticket readers and if your ticket isn't valid for that train you can't get on it.  Of course that would never happen due to cost of implimentation, and delays to boarding at busy stations.

So you’d have to go through the train doors one at a time, like a ticket barrier? Not sure people would like the 10-minute dwell times that would result. In any case, there’s a large proportion of (mostly suburban) routes where this isn’t an issue - you have off-peak tickets that aren’t always valid but not ones for specific trains only.

[APOLLO]

19 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

We can use 3-pin plugs and square electricity if we want now that we've left the EU. 

 

The paperless society in action!

 

The paper ticket is dead; you don't have to carry that on you any more.

So now you're carrying an E-ticket and two paper tickets.

 

Yes, I am, Belt and braces. Peace of mind.

 

Also see earlier post re loosing tickets & subsequent cost for long journeys. etc.

 

I could not care less about the paperless society, dead paper tickets etc.

 

Remember me when you loose your phone / run out of power etc. !!

 

Brit15

[SM42]

The problem with paperless is it doesn't work without power. 

 

We have paperless office devotees who take longer to find stuff than I can find it on hard copy and they tend to have about 50 different windows open on the PC and complain about it being slow. 

 

No, its just busy. 

 

Each to their own. 

 

Both e and physical tickets have advantages  

 

It's how you make use of those that matters and that's down to choice and circumstance

 

Andy

[Kris]

I have access to my e-tickets on both my watch and my phone which gives me an additional level of redundancy. 

[adb968008]

21 hours ago, Flanged Wheel said:

We (a family of four with two pre-teen boys) have just spent two years travelling the world. With one exception (a ferry in the Philippines), we have been able to use electronic tickets for travel on a wide range of planes, trains, buses and boats. All of these were bought online and sent to our phones. We’ve had absolutely no issues anywhere with this - including using one device for multiple tickets (I stand at the gate and scan each ticket individually so that the rest of the family can go through the barriers and then I follow at the end).

 

I can understand all of the concerns that have been raised above (and we always travel with a fully charged emergency battery to address that particular issue) but the use of e-tickets is globally widespread and (for us at any rate) largely problem free. We’re probably an outlier in terms of our comfort with technology and our willingness to be reliant on it but then we have a more liberal approach to risk than most (hence wandering around the world with our children in the first place)…!

Best of luck with the row trip.

 

ive travelled worldwide for decades (Greetings from Miami as I write this), and never come across a railway system as complex for the entirety of routing, companies, frequency and ticketing as exists in the UK.

 

Many countries have some of the above, but none have the full combo.. The closest I could imagine is the US Domestic aviation network, but theres no chance your getting on the wrong flight.

 

Many countries Ive found are lucky to have one train on a route a day, let alone multiple companies operating from the same platform to the same destinations.. or multiple stations serving the same cities on different routes.

Edited July 14 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

I'll be honest, I've just read through all three pages of this and my main take from it is that peopke

 

A) can't be trusted to look after a ticket either in paper or E format and 

 

B) can't be trusted to listen to announcements or read departure boards, PID screens and the little dot matrix thing on the side of the train. 

 

Revenue staff have heard it all before. The girl sat opposite me the other week was given a penalty fare notice for no YP railcard. Her excuse was that the RPI on the way in had already given her a letter for that (penalty fare notice) so it was sorted. Took the RPI a while to explain that, if she'd been picked up for no railcard on the way in, then she didn't have a railcard for the journey home either and should have bought a non-railcard single. So now she's got two letters. 

Edited July 14 by Wheatley

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Not me, then again when I travel I always wear a pair of trousers with at least one secure pocket just for tickets & another one for emergency cash.

To end up in real trouble I would have to lose my trousers !

 

Good job you're not  a Cabinet Minsiter!   You'd be amazed what some people get up to on trains ...

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/11/01/Chancellor-of-the-Exchequer-robbed-of-wallet-and-pants/2592404974800/

[RichardT]

17 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

 

Duly coughed up £138 at the Euston ticket office, walked straight on the train,  no onboard check during the journey and walked straight out at Liverpool. 

 

£138 for nothing. :-(

You are not alone in your irritation…

 

The Daily Mash on non-checking of tickets (warning - a bit of strong language)

 

Sorry, going OT.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, RichardT said:

You are not alone in your irritation…

 

The Daily Mash on non-checking of tickets (warning - a bit of strong language)

 

Sorry, going OT.

Often on weekends the barriers are open so tickets are not checked, and may not be on the train either. I note that, while the routing is slightly convoluted with the need to get to either King’s Cross or proceed north to Stevenage or Peterborough, it is possible at all times to travel (for instance) from Westferry (or any similar DLR station) via Moorgate and Finsbury Park to either York (which doesn’t have barriers for historic preservation reasons) or to various smaller suburban stations around Leeds without once going through a barrier, including at the origin and destination stations. Although my personal experience (needless to say always travelling with a valid ticket, or tapping in at Old Street or Moorgate before changing at Bank in the case of the DLR) is that both the DLR and LNER on that part of the ECML are quite good at doing frequent ticket inspections. Not so much if the service is busy, or on other (busier than the DLR) parts of the TfL network that interchange directly with National Rail without barriers.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Often on weekends the barriers are open so tickets are not checked, and may not be on the train either. I note that, while the routing is slightly convoluted with the need to get to either King’s Cross or proceed north to Stevenage or Peterborough, it is possible at all times to travel (for instance) from Westferry (or any similar DLR station) via Moorgate and Finsbury Park to either York (which doesn’t have barriers for historic preservation reasons) or to various smaller suburban stations around Leeds without once going through a barrier, including at the origin and destination stations.

As a retired commuter to various Underground stations using GN suburban, I've certainly encountered spot checks at Finsbury Park by massed ticket inspectors, even in rush hour.  Yes, caused delays, but given what an annual season ticket cost most folk didn't really mind.

[sjp23480]

Let's not forget that  sometimes fare dodging can cost you your career:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232

Edited July 14 by sjp23480

[Michael Hodgson]

9 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Let's not forget that  sometimes fare dodging can cost you your career:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232

What an idiot.  He's the sort who should have been fired not just for his lack of integrity but for lacking the intelligence one needs to be a competent hedge fund manager.  Unlike some of the other people in his office, such as receptionists or cleaners, he would have been on so much money that the rail fare was not a problem for him.  I see this was 10 years ago. 

[009 micro modeller]

51 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As a retired commuter to various Underground stations using GN suburban, I've certainly encountered spot checks at Finsbury Park by massed ticket inspectors, even in rush hour.  Yes, caused delays, but given what an annual season ticket cost most folk didn't really mind.

Also, in fairness my example was based on either using GN/Thameslink between Finsbury Park and Stevenage/Peterborough before switching to some kind of intercity service, or going back into King’s Cross from Finsbury Park, whereas most people (unless they really were doing a convoluted route specifically to avoid barriers) would make their way to King’s Cross and get on the long-distance train there. The cross-platform interchange at Highbury (GN/Victoria line) is very convenient but also a bit susceptible to this sort of thing, or even to people just forgetting to tap in or out as they change trains (I often do GN on a paper ticket and then a short tube journey on contactless).

 

37 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Let's not forget that  sometimes fare dodging can cost you your career:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232

Wasn’t that particular story once featured on an episode of Have I Got News For You?

 

Agree with @Michael Hodgson - even less sympathy in this case given the money he’d have been earning as a hedge fund manager, it’s not as if he was scraping together pennies to afford the fare.

[Oldddudders]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Unlike some of the other people in his office, such as receptionists or cleaners, he would have been on so much money that the rail fare was not a problem for him.  I see this was 10 years ago. 

No question he deserved to pay - but we should beware of thinking we understand others' finances. Living in that area is not cheap - Margaret Thatcher had an apartment not too far away - and so he may have had a killer mortgage and be putting kids through private education. And/or supporting others consequent upon a divorce or even two. None of that is an excuse, but may be a reason. 

[sjp23480]

I think it reflects a wider shift in society where some people appear to be of the opinion that they should only pay when they have to and take when they can.

 

I was in a restaurant last week and when I got the bill I called over a member of staff to point out they had left a round of drinks off the bill.  You could have knocked them over with a feather.  Corrected bill was duly presented and paid.  

 

Had they offered to not charge for the drinks (for my honesty), I would have accepted their offer.   Maybe next time!!!  ;-)

[SM42]

Poland can be a bit of a mare with tickets.

PKP or regional operator. Intercity or Regio  high speed ( yeah right)  premium or normal fast train. 

 

Then you may not have paid enough for the route you are taking, even if it does make perfect sense, you may be long on the kms for the fare you paid. 

 

The main difference is other passengers will sometimes gang up on the conductor and argue the passenger's case,   women will cry, guilt tripping the unfortunate enployee in the hope they have better things to do  

 

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/07/2024 at 14:28, rodent279 said:

Maybe the answer is a simpler ticketing system, with tickets valid on all trains on which that route runs? Suppose that would be anathema to individual TOCs who want to be attracting people to use their own offers, but as all are supposed to be run as contracts to DfT now that should not be an issue. Open Access operators could have it written into their contract that they must accept tickets that are valid on the route that they're running trains on.

Should airlines and 'bus operators. do the same?

 

The situation on today's railway is really no different from that which first began to apply when Parliamentary Trains were introduced.  Tickets at differing levels of fare paid are valid on different trains although nowadays the colour of the trains varies to help you towards knowing which train is which for what ticket.  That's a bit better than SNCF where all the TGVs on a route are the same colour but the fare to travel on trains at even slightly different times can vary by a considerable percentage difference.

 

Locally we have one and a bit 'bus operators (I say 'a bit' because the second operates very few services) but even where their routes are parallel their tickets are not inter-valid.  On our local (branch) train service fares vary according to the time of day at which you travel - an idea which has been around for umpteen decades.  The main line connections are operated by two different companies and the tickets are inter-valid but again the time of day at which you travel affects what you pay for your ticket (and such is the difference between the trains of the two operators you might consider than one of them offers much better value for your money in terms of shorter journey time - for a particular journey, on-train comfort, and facilities).

 

Where there is price competition between operators - such as the ECML with some open access services - it is, just like an airline of ;bus operator;  so understandable that tickets might not be inter-valid.  You pays your money and you makes your choice. (although some inter-availability might be created during times of major route perturbation etc).  But that's little different from the past where you paid extra to travel on a Pullman or paid different fares at different times or on different days of the week.

 

Back in the 1970s one of my Booking Clerks - a man whose career stretched back into GWR days - said that he felt that working in a Booking Office had become more like a supermarket because of the increased range of special offers, reductions for certain categories of people, and so on.   Yes - BR was at it a long while back.

Edited July 15 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The situation on today's railway is really no different from that which first began to apply when Parliamentary Trains were introduced.  Tickets at differing levels of fare paid are valid on different trains although nowadays the colour of the trains varies to help you towards knowing which train is which for what ticket.  T

 

That might work better if they stuck to the "corporate image" didn't keep painting units inconsistently and looking more like the "artwork" produced by the local primary school.