E Tickets

[figworthy]

Following a recent trip, I noticed something about E tickets that piqued my interest.

 

I always end up with ye olde card tickets, so I've not had to explore this.  Watching people walk up to the barriers, they wave their phones at the reader to go through, they then hand the phone back to their travelling companion, who does the same.  This got me thinking (always dangerous).  Is this two people travelling on one ticket (naughty), or if you buy more than one ticket at a time, do they end up as one E ticket ?

 

Adrian

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, figworthy said:

Following a recent trip, I noticed something about E tickets that piqued my interest.

 

I always end up with ye olde card tickets, so I've not had to explore this.  Watching people walk up to the barriers, they wave their phones at the reader to go through, they then hand the phone back to their travelling companion, who does the same.  This got me thinking (always dangerous).  Is this two people travelling on one ticket (naughty), or if you buy more than one ticket at a time, do they end up as one E ticket ?

 

Adrian

Multiple people can be on an e ticket.

The new Izal bog roll tickets can have mulitple on too.

 

i guess the barrier is intelligent enough to count how many people it has let out…or guess not and the platform staff just wave you out.

dont trust etickets myself… too many horror stories… the whole split fares thing seems to come with perils for rail enthusiasts to fall into.

 

 

Edited July 9 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

I don't trust anything computerised or mobile-phone-ised! Especially tickets. A while ago I tried buying a car park ticket on HS1, no internet or bad internet made it impossible, I ended up with a penalty charge even though the train guard tried to do that for me as well. I never paid the penalty charge.

[roundhouse]

We have a Two Together railcard, so when buying tickets online you have both tickets on the one device. Each ticket has its own QR code so you have to scroll throguh the screen for each pass of the gate.

I would rather have physical tickets as its noticeable how much slower it is getting through the gates with mobile devies but quite often we buy tickets on the go due to not trusting the train times these days, so we keep our options fluid and end up having to buy tickets last minute hence using an app to buy them.

[Edwin_m]

The barcode is unique to an individual ticket, rather like the ones on postage stamps are supposed to be.  So the system would detect if the same one was used more than once.  

[Dagworth]

There are more than one ticket in the app on these occasions, the second person has to scroll to the second ticket which will have a new QR code.

 

Andi

[Paul H Vigor]

Must say, I feel so much more secure travelling with a physical ticket in my pocket. What happens if something ghastly happens to your smart phone - broken or stolen mid journey?

[Davexoc]

1 hour ago, roundhouse said:

I would rather have physical tickets as its noticeable how much slower it is getting through the gates with mobile devies but quite often we buy tickets on the go due to not trusting the train times these days, so we keep our options fluid and end up having to buy tickets last minute hence using an app to buy them.

 

Having tried the e-ticket option I would tend to agree. Recently travelled as a group to/from Beaconsfield, 7 adults, 2 kids, 2 toddlers and 2 babes in buggies, so it was scan one on the double gate and all bundle through.

The time needed to go back and forth using the Wallet feature on a single device when the tickets are randomly ordered instead of being all outwards followed by all returns, would have probably meant the following train would have arrived before we all got through....

[jim.snowdon]

26 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Must say, I feel so much more secure travelling with a physical ticket in my pocket. What happens if something ghastly happens to your smart phone - broken or stolen mid journey?

You are not alone in that, so when I buy a ticket online I download it and print a copy at home.

[Wickham Green too]

... though having to carry / find a dirty great sheet of A4 rather than a nice handy credit card size ticket has its disadvantages !

[Paul H Vigor]

37 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

You are not alone in that, so when I buy a ticket online I download it and print a copy at home.

Getting the rough end of Revenue Protection for a bu**ered phone could REALLY spoil your journey! 

[adb968008]

Theres another forum with hundreds of real life horror stories.

 

Whilst theres a bunch of chancers with short fares, what I find disproportionate is the number who had, but forgot, a railcard, or had an expired railcard, or made simple tourist errors like Oyster to Stansted, found a machine issue and boarded with intent to buy on board etc.. who come up against a Heavy weight legal system which is an industry feeding off soft targets and imo abusing the purpose of the system to make money.

 

in many cases they involve e or mobile tickets, dead phones, and fares for trivial amounts.. often under £5, or even £1.

 

After reading that lot (and how Trainline leads you to make errors, by saving railcards and defaults to using them without challenging you, and then cooperates with train companies (for a fee) to investigate your history…

 

to me its wrong… The system doesnt presume innocence, and puts the emphasis on the passenger to have the same or better knowledge than the ticket office staff, whilst having a very complex system of tickets.

 

Someday railway ticket prosecutions will be another Fujitsu scandal.

until then.. I wont use trainline, only buy at the station and either from a ticket office or only a very well research ticket from a machine and check my route and toc carefully… even then you can still be caught out by simple errors, or train cancelations that pour chaos into confusion and you fall into the net that is the trap waiting for you.

 

its so easy to make a mistake, be gripped by someone on quota for finding people with incorrect tickets and end up in court.

I saw it on saturday… at Warrington, the London train I was on, ended up ahead of another London Avanti service, which subsequently got terminated short… passengers were told to board ours… this girl promptly did, we left warrington, next stop London… she didnt realise it wasnt stopping at Crewe, and as ours was late and in the path of the one that does…

 

TTI comes, no sympathy at all dings her with a single to London.. all the way to London she’s sobbing on the phone to her friends, without realising her mis fortune in that at London, shes now going to have to buy another single back to Crewe… in many ways shes got off lightly.. she could have had the full, prosecution treatment rather than a single to London… the railway isn't doing itself favours like this, as now she and all her friends wont be taking a train ever again.

 

There should imo be a route to prove human error, rather than malicious intent, especially in confusing circumstances like this, which is partly down to the railways own flaws…There should also be a bar (starting at an offer to pay the right fare in the first instance, escalating upwards depending on cooperation and past history).

 

it reminds me of the wild west speed cameras were in the 1980’s when the question was asked is the purpose safety or revenue.. when the mealy mouthed safety was answered and they turned the cameras from hidden in hedges to bright yellow on stands the revenue went down, but safety went up.

 

if Ticket inspections is about fare evasion or revenue, then maybe the focus shifts on proving guilt rather than assuming it… starting with confusing e tickets, assuming passengers havent learnt the tickets rules by heart and helping them at times of stress like canceled, delayed trains, flat phones, forgotten railcards etc.

With a paper ticket issued from a booking office you have none of that.. as youve bought your ticket from an authorised official who has given you permission to travel.. just as the still active 19th century laws intended and codifies.

Edited July 10 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Must say, I feel so much more secure travelling with a physical ticket in my pocket. What happens if something ghastly happens to your smart phone - broken or stolen mid journey?

Or if the train is delayed (the railway's fault !!) and the phone battery goes flat.

[Paul H Vigor]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Or if the train is delayed (the railway's fault !!) and the phone battery goes flat.

Like a brush with the Stasi?

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Must say, I feel so much more secure travelling with a physical ticket in my pocket. What happens if something ghastly happens to your smart phone - broken or stolen mid journey?

The number of times I've seeen barriers not functioning correctly when trying to read E Tickets suggests to me that those using them should arrive at Paddington at least one hour before the time of the train they intend to catch.   (And once one of them has been through it seem to muck up the system for them reading printed etc tickets.)

[franciswilliamwebb]

Over the years I've:

• Found I'd lost my card return ticket when confronted by a ticket inspector
• Lost paper tickets for myself and friends before travelling
• Had a card ticket eaten by a ticket barrier part way through a journey

Foolproof as long as it's not this fool🫣

[Wickham Green too]

27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

... should arrive at Paddington at least one hour before the time of the train they intend to catch. ...

That won't work ........................ they never post the platform on the board more than five panic minutes before departure.

[rodent279]

Paper tickets aren't infallible, they can be lost, stolen or defaced in such a way as to be unreadable. I turned up at Paddington one Monday morning for my 0930 train to Bristol, having travelled from Fort William on the sleeper overnight, only to find my paper ticket was nowhere to be seen, not in of my various pockets & bags. Had to pay full ching to Bristol, despite still having the outward part to prove I had actually bought a return ticket.

[ColinK]

If you e-ticket comes as an email, it’s very easy to delete the email  (and ticket) by mistake.  Indeed my phone can be set to delete email automatically.

[009 micro modeller]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i guess the barrier is intelligent enough to count how many people it has let out…or guess not and the platform staff just wave you out.

The technology we have at work involves one QR code for each ticket type (so for instance one adult and one child on the same booking have two, one person on each, but two adults and two children also have two, two people on each), though this is to be checked by someone using a handheld scanner rather than an unmanned barrier. It knows if it’s already been scanned too many times. I’m not sure if railway e-tickets work the same way though.

 

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

dont trust etickets myself… too many horror stories… the whole split fares thing seems to come with perils for rail enthusiasts to fall into.

I don’t like them (or payment apps where you pair your card to the phone) because I don’t want the risk of my phone dying, running out of data etc. and then being unable to load the ticket. However, online booking for paper tickets (which you then collect from a ticket machine) and split ticketing is surely a separate issue?

[Kylestrome]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Paper tickets aren't infallible

 

How true! On a recent journey on GWR I managed to spill coffee over my paper tickets and had a devil of a job separating them without them getting permanently stuck together and illegible.

Edited July 10 by Kylestrome

[figworthy]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The number of times I've seeen barriers not functioning correctly when trying to read E Tickets suggests to me that those using them should arrive at Paddington at least one hour before the time of the train they intend to catch.   (And once one of them has been through it seem to muck up the system for them reading printed etc tickets.)

 

I think I get about 1 in 3, maybe 1 in 4 failures with card tickets.  Typically arriving at Marylebone and the barriers won't let me out.  A quick word with the staff (with a very cursory glance at the card ticket) results in the gate being opened.  Strikes me as being too higher a failure rate.

 

I don't think I've ever had a problem getting onto the platform at either end, and the barriers are always open at Oxford by the time I get back, so I don't get to test that end.

 

Adrian

[roythebus1]

I may well look up fares on the National Rail website and try to work out split tickets, but will NEVER buy tickets online. On most occasions in the last couple of years the helpful ticket clerks at my local station have come up with better prices than the computer. 

 

I had to go from Ashford to Kensal Rise for a funeral a couple of years ago, funeral time 1100. Unable to get a day return as I'd have to got out before the 0930. I can't remember the full price, say £55 on a senior railcard. Ticket man said get anytime day return from Kensal Rise to Ashford and come back before you go. £28. Another joureny I've done a few times, Ashford to Isle of Wight. Computer says via HS1, Northern Line St.Pancras to Waterloo, fast train to Pompey then ferry. £78 return just to Pompey, journey time 3 hr 45.

Ticket man says go the pretty way round the coast, the Southern DMU to Brighton, electric to Havant, DMU to Pompey Harbour. Return £28 with railcard, journey time 3hr 20. The ferry is £12 each way these days. The computer would never cope with such a journey.

 

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

33 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

... the helpful ticket clerks at my local station ...

You're lucky to have them ! ............................ OK, my local station DOES still have a ticket office but it's very rare to see it occupied - possibly because I rarely travel before 09.30 !

[eatus-maximus]

23 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Must say, I feel so much more secure travelling with a physical ticket in my pocket. What happens if something ghastly happens to your smart phone - broken or stolen mid journey?

 

20 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Or if the train is delayed (the railway's fault !!) and the phone battery goes flat.

 

If you are unable to show a valid ticket (or produce a smartcard containing a valid ticket) upon request, you are treated as having not purchased a ticket, under the Railway Byelaws and the National Rail Conditions of Travel (which you agree to when you buy a ticket).

 

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

....if Ticket inspections is about fare evasion or revenue, then maybe the focus shifts on proving guilt rather than assuming it… starting with confusing e tickets, assuming passengers havent learnt the tickets rules by heart and helping them at times of stress like canceled, delayed trains, flat phones, forgotten railcards etc.....

You can look at it in a number of different ways and decide it is either fair or unfair. Ultimately, if you can produce a ticket, you can prove you have paid to travel.

 

Someone who is intending to evade a fare will always claim an innocent excuse. Imagine you are a revenue officer, the passenger produces a phone with a dead battery and claims there is a ticket on it, what do you do? Accept it on face value, or treat them as not holding a ticket? There is no way to prove which is a genuine passenger and which is not, so you must treat them the same way.

 

The standard is simple, if you can produce a ticket you are fine to travel, if not, you haven't got a ticket.

 

I don't think anyone is asking people to know all the rules off by heart, but as the rules are available at the time of purchase, and you tick a box to say you have read them, is it really unreasonable for the train companies to presume that you have indeed read them?

 

Where trains are delayed or cancelled, staff do tend to be more accepting, but usually because the person actually has a ticket.

 

For a forgotten Railcard the passenger would be expected to buy a new ticket (as per the Conditions of issue and the National Rail Conditions of Travel). However, each Railcard holder can claim the cost of the ticket back on one occasion, if they produce the Railcard and relevant tickets to the train company that issued the new ticket.