Layout Planning: Fictitious Great Central Line in Yorkshire

[1165Valour]

On 15 December 1845, there was a meeting of the shareholders of the recently-formed Huddersfield & Manchester Railway & Canal Company at the Huddersfield Guildhall. The Chairman, William Aldam, announced his proposal to lease the H&MR to the Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne & Manchester Railway. The Deputy Chairman, Joseph Brook, immediately voiced opposition the plan in strong language, and Aldam's proposal was soundly defeated, with Brook leaving the Guildhall chaired on the shoulders of the shareholders. When the SA&MR formed the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway, it would do so without the H&MR.

 

However, what if Joseph Brook missed the meeting, and Aldam's proposal had gone through, and gotten the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester Railway to join them? What would the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line have looked like in 1907, in Great Central days?

 

For the past couple years, I have become quite enamored with this idea, allowing for a busy Great Central main line, offering junctions with several other companies. However, I have a few nagging questions:
 

- Would the line still be routed via the L&Y at Mirfield? I am not so sure this would have been the case, as I don't know if the L&Y would have been willing to offer this to the MS&L in the way they had to the LNWR.

 

- What is the likelihood of the MS&L/GCR and Great Northern collaborating on building lines in the West Riding, or at least joint stations at Batley and Holbeck?

 

- Would a junction with the Midland at Dewsbury be out of the question, in light of the MS&L and Midland's relationship?

 

Any other input or suggestions are quite welcome, of course.

 

@62613 @DenysW @Compound2632 

Edited July 17 by 1165Valour

[62613]

What if the M.S & L. had built the line from Huddersfield to Penistone? I would point out that the Midland and the M.S. & L. got along quite weel around Manchester, e.g. the Sheffield and Midland Joint from Hyde Junction to Apethorn Junction. I'm not syre the Ashburys to Romiley line wasn't "Joint"

[1165Valour]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

What if the M.S & L. had built the line from Huddersfield to Penistone? I would point out that the Midland and the M.S. & L. got along quite well around Manchester, e.g. the Sheffield and Midland Joint from Hyde Junction to Apethorn Junction. I'm not syre the Ashburys to Romiley line wasn't "Joint"

Yes, the SA&M was trying to include the Huddersfield & Sheffield Junction in the MS&L around this time as well. In a world where the Great Central has a Manchester-Leeds line, having the Huddersfield-Penistone line would be quite advantageous, or at least owning it jointly with the L&Y.

 

I assume the GCR would have been running expresses from Leeds to Marylebone, and I think some would have been routed via Huddersfield and Penistone, while others would have been routed via Wakefield and Nostell.

 

To clarify, I am being attentive to the effects of my changes, but I am not being especially attentive, if you take my meaning. @DenysW, you are likely quite right - the MS&L was treading water in those early years, and Leeds would likely have been a bridge too far for them. However, I would like to model the Great Central, so I must wink at your very reasonable objections, and assume few major changes.

 

[Willie Whizz]

I don’t know whether it helps, but in the late 20s and early 30s the LNER ran an express service of sorts from Leeds to Bournemouth via the ex-LDEC and Mansfield Railway routes and then on down the GC London Extension. 
 

The trains were quite short, and tended to mix LNER and SR stock. I believe it died, like much else in those times, from lack of patronage in the difficult period of the Great Depression - but if “Rule One” is already having to be invoked in other matters then here is a fig-leaf that may be useful. 

[1165Valour]

8 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

I don’t know whether it helps, but in the late 20s and early 30s the LNER ran an express service of sorts from Leeds to Bournemouth via the ex-LDEC and Mansfield Railway routes and then on down the GC London Extension. 
 

The trains were quite short, and tended to mix LNER and SR stock. I believe it died, like much else in those times, from lack of patronage in the difficult period of the Great Depression - but if “Rule One” is already having to be invoked in other matters then here is a fig-leaf that may be useful. 

I have indeed considered including trains similar to the "Ports to Ports Express" that ran from Newcastle (and Hull and Sunderland) down to Bournemouth via Banbury.

 

In our hypothetical 1907, I imagine Great Central trains would start at either Leeds New (later City) or Central, then use the Huddersfield to Penistone line to get on the GCML south to Marylebone, or indeed Bournemouth in this case.

 

I also expect Leeds New (or something similar: Leeds Victoria?) would still be built in this world.

[Ruston]

On 09/07/2024 at 04:06, 1165Valour said:

Huddersfield & Manchester Railway & Canal Company

Is this the through Diggle and the Standedge tunnel that you're talking about?

Edited July 23 by Ruston

[DenysW]

On 09/07/2024 at 04:06, 1165Valour said:

However, what if Joseph Brook missed the meeting, and Aldam's proposal had gone through, and gotten the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester Railway to join them? What would the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line have looked like in 1907, in Great Central days?

Would it alternatively have so worsened the MS&L's position that it had to agree to be taken over by a Midland & Great Northern Joint Committee? This came within a hair of happening as it was, and would have been vastly better for the holders of MS&L Ordinary shares (and made no difference to the Preference and debenture holders who were in the majority).

[Willie Whizz]

On 22/07/2024 at 02:34, 1165Valour said:

I have indeed considered including trains similar to the "Ports to Ports Express" that ran from Newcastle (and Hull and Sunderland) down to Bournemouth via Banbury.

 

In our hypothetical 1907, I imagine Great Central trains would start at either Leeds New (later City) or Central, then use the Huddersfield to Penistone line to get on the GCML south to Marylebone, or indeed Bournemouth in this case.

 

I also expect Leeds New (or something similar: Leeds Victoria?) would still be built in this world.

I may have misunderstood but I understood your thinking had moved from c.1907 to the LNER period. The Mansfield Railway link wasn’t opened for passenger trains until

1917 so such trains wouldn’t be able to use that route southwards from Leeds. 

[1165Valour]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Is this the through Diggle and the Standedge tunnel that you're talking about?

Yes, indeed!

 

5 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

I may have misunderstood but I understood your thinking had moved from c.1907 to the LNER period. The Mansfield Railway link wasn’t opened for passenger trains until

1917 so such trains wouldn’t be able to use that route southwards from Leeds. 

True, though the route from Leeds to Sheffield via Batley, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, and Penistone would be in GCR hands here.

[1165Valour]

5 hours ago, DenysW said:

Would it alternatively have so worsened the MS&L's position that it had to agree to be taken over by a Midland & Great Northern Joint Committee? This came within a hair of happening as it was, and would have been vastly better for the holders of MS&L Ordinary shares (and made no difference to the Preference and debenture holders who were in the majority).

You are likely correct on this point. However, I want to model the Great Central, so for the purposes of the layout, I will wave my magic wand and say that the MS&L was not sunk by this fictitious expansion.

 

[Ruston]

16 hours ago, 1165Valour said:

Yes, indeed!

I see.

 

On 22/07/2024 at 02:34, 1165Valour said:

I also expect Leeds New (or something similar: Leeds Victoria?) would still be built in this world.

The LNWR couldn't build the Leeds New Line if they weren't already running trains along the Diggle route into Huddersfield. Unless you mean the Leeds New being built by the GCR?

 

On 09/07/2024 at 04:06, 1165Valour said:

Would a junction with the Midland at Dewsbury be out of the question, in light of the MS&L and Midland's relationship?

They would already have access to Dewsbury on their own line and there would be nothing to gain by joining the MR at Dewsbury. The MR had only a goods yard there and the line that accessed it came all the way from Royston. There was nothing in between and with it running in a southeastern direction toward Barnsley, there would be no point in this theoretical GCR line running trains from Manchester, through Huddersfield and down toward Barnsley when the GCR already had access to the Barnsley area via the Woodhead line. Besides, the MR line from Royston to Dewsbury was still under construction in 1907.

I suppose if, in this theoretical world, the MR's line continued as originally planned, through Dewsbury, to Bradford and connected with its station at Forster Square (to create a shortcut to the Settle & Carlisle) then it would be worth having a junction with the MR at Dewsbury. On the other hand, if the GCR had built the Leeds New then it would make more sense for traffic heading north to access the MR from that line, so you would have a junction somewhere around Heckmondwike, perhaps? You could go on and on with this nonsense. 😄

 

On 09/07/2024 at 04:06, 1165Valour said:

What would the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line have looked like in 1907, in Great Central days?

I suppose that within the railway fence it would look like the GCR line to London, with their style of architecture, same stock, locomotives etc. but within the same West Yorkshire geography and architecture as existed in reality in 1907. Possibly the station buildings could have used local stone instead of brick.

[1165Valour]

3 hours ago, Ruston said:

The LNWR couldn't build the Leeds New Line if they weren't already running trains along the Diggle route into Huddersfield. Unless you mean the Leeds New being built by the GCR?

Ah, my apologies, I meant Leeds New station, it was later reconstructed as Leeds City. It was built in our world as a joint venture between the LNWR and the North Eastern, and I expect the MS&L would have done the same.

 

Whether they would have built the Leeds New Line (Heaton Lodge & Wortley line), I'm not sure. The main factors in the real world (from what I recall), were the bottleneck at the L&Y station in Mirfield, and the Morley tunnel. If the GCR built their own line through Mirfield, then no problem. Quadrupling the line through the Morley tunnel could present trouble, however.

[DenysW]

I know that this means a different colour of rose, but why not choose one of the lines that carried heavy traffic and that the MS&L provided the motive power for? If none of the Cheshire Lines suits, then the MSJ&A looks like a well run (Joint MSL/LNWR after 1860) short railway with lots of commuter and lots of goods traffic.

 

I note that the MSL/GCR is unusual in the high proportion of its trainmiles provided to other companies. Why not use this?

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

IMHO, when planning what ifs, once you've deviated from the truth/prototypicality a little bit you may as well go for it big time, after all, you might as well get hung for a sheep as for a lamb!

 

Mikke.

[DenysW]

Seems to be an adequate choice in Yorkshire on the real stuff to me. The map is from the GCR 1913 accounts. The freight branch to Gotham (pronounced locally as "GOAT-'em", but still tortuously linked with Batman's home town) might also be fun although not in Yorkshire.

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

Gotham itself never had a passenger station in the GCLE, but the branch shown on that map seems to have opened in 1899 and was used to serve a large gypsum and plaster works. 

[DenysW]

2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

the branch shown on that map

Which is a bit dodgy. Looking on satellite images, the junction only allowed access to/from the north and did not have the sharp-ish curves shown. British Gypsum (now owned by Saint Gobain) still operate the site.

[1165Valour]

Here are my current thoughts regarding junctions with other companies on this line:

 

Manchester London Road: LNWR

 

Ashburys: Midland (via Sheffield & Midland Joint)

 

Guide Bridge: LNWR

 

Stalybridge: L&Y

 

Huddersfield: L&Y (if they still acquire the Huddersfield & Sheffield Junction)

 

Battyeford/Mirfield: I'm assuming that the L&Y does not invite the MS&L to use their line through Mirfield, so Heaton Lodge is not a junction. I assume the MS&L line would swing around the northern edge of Mirfield. If it stays on the west bank of the Calder, they can pass straight through Ravensthorpe and into Dewsbury without the need to build another bridge.

 

Dewsbury: Midland (if we say they do in fact build the Bradford to Dewsbury line)

 

Batley: Great Northern (given the warmer relations between the GCR and GNR, I suspect there would be more cooperation between the two companies)

 

Leeds: Great Northern (possibly Holbeck is joint GN/GC here), North Eastern (I assume Leeds New station is still built here)

[62613]

On 23/07/2024 at 19:40, Ruston said:

Is this the through Diggle and the Standedge tunnel that you're talking about?

Yes. The original railway was promoted with that name. It was absorbed into the LNWR while being contructed.

 

It should be pointed out that the existing Stalybridge Station was LNWR/MSL joint when it was extended in the early 1880s; the L & Y had its own separate station on the site of what is now the fire station. There was a double junction from the L & Y line onto the LNWR line at the Eastern end of the station. The enlarged map in the corridor of the buffet bar shows all this. 

Edited August 14 by 62613

[1165Valour]

On 14/08/2024 at 14:25, 62613 said:

Yes. The original railway was promoted with that name. It was absorbed into the LNWR while being contructed.

Right, the difference here is that the MSL absorbs it, instead of the LNWR.

[62613]

9 hours ago, 1165Valour said:

Right, the difference here is that the MSL absorbs it, instead of the LNWR.

Clearer now! You mean the original line (still open) and not the Friezland Loop?

[1165Valour]

On 20/08/2024 at 05:45, 62613 said:

Clearer now! You mean the original line (still open) and not the Friezland Loop?

Correct, yes. The Micklehurst (or Friezland, as you say) loop would still be built, I assume, once traffic on the line becomes heavy enough in the 1890s.

Edited August 21 by 1165Valour

[1165Valour]

I suspect there would be a flyover at Heaton Lodge here, rather than the junction we know and love, as the L&Y would likely not look too kindly on routing MS&L trains through their station at Mirfield.

[1165Valour]

What's the likelihood of the Great Northern or North Eastern getting running powers over the Great Central into Huddersfield, or possibly Manchester? 

[DenysW]

2 hours ago, 1165Valour said:

What's the likelihood of the Great Northern ... getting running powers over the Great Central into Huddersfield, or possibly Manchester? 

Already happening via Retford to Manchester. Mostly coaches added to MSL/GCR trains, but one service per day (faster than the rest) that was solely GNR.