Mk1 GUV question

[bradfordbuffer]

making a 3dprinted GUV 

on prototype pics i have noticed some with foot boards some without!

 

are there numbers with or with out?

is it build date?

is it 

brut circuit?....

seems random ...

...help please

 

Graham

[Trestrol]

If I remember correctly it is to do with loading BRUTES. Footboards got in the way and I don't think any particular build batch just which ever ones were allocated to the BRUTE circuit working. 

[bradfordbuffer]

Thanks that's Brill. Thought it might of been something like that.

Thank you for response 

Tar

G

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Trestrol said:

If I remember correctly it is to do with loading BRUTES. Footboards got in the way and I don't think any particular build batch just which ever ones were allocated to the BRUTE circuit working. 

Yes,   Bouncing BRUTES out of GUVs had the destructive habit of breaking footboards which led to removal of same. 

[bradfordbuffer]

Well they are a big lump and are hard to shift they bounce around behind the battery tractor...

Some stock had yellow stickers for brute traffic 

 

So in conclusion I will model a mix

[Flood]

After having a quick look through Flickr I have found photos of GUVs with and without step boards in 1973 and there is also two photos in Larkin's BR Parcels and Passenger rated stock Vol. 1 showing individual GUVs in 1974 with and without step boards. There are not that many photos accurately dated for around that time and it would have taken a while to get the step boards removed.

 

The CCTs seem to have lost their step boards around 1977/78 and the BGs kept theirs throughout. The GUVs converted to newspaper packing vans in 1977/78 seem to have regained the step boards.

[bradfordbuffer]

16 minutes ago, Flood said:

After having a quick look through Flickr I have found photos of GUVs with and without step boards in 1973 and there is also two photos in Larkin's BR Parcels and Passenger rated stock Vol. 1 showing individual GUVs in 1974 with and without step boards. There are not that many photos accurately dated for around that time and it would have taken a while to get the step boards removed.

 

The CCTs seem to have lost their step boards around 1977/78 and the BGs kept theirs throughout. The GUVs converted to newspaper packing vans in 1977/78 seem to have regained the step boards.

That's narrowed it down even more I'm a mid 80s man so general traffic guv guv no foot board's newspapers vans board's....I'll do a mix!

 

Thanks to all responses....rm at Its best

 

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes,   Bouncing BRUTES out of GUVs had the destructive habit of breaking footboards which led to removal of same. 

 

BRUTEs were aptly named.

[The Stationmaster]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

BRUTEs were aptly named.

However they didn't stand up too well to being hit by a train.  

 

One - with the not uncommon defective handbrake problem - rolled off the platform at Slough one evening only to be comprehensively demolished by a passing D8XX hauled passenger train.  On my train - from the westerly direction - running in to Slough the next morning the products of two of our major parcels customers were clearly visible scattered on and around the Down Main for about half a mile from the station.  If you didn't know before then that Penguin published paperback books and Berlei produced ladies undergarments of various sorts you were definitely no longer left in ignorance with damaged cartons and their contents lying all over the place.

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However they didn't stand up too well to being hit by a train.  

 

One - with the not uncommon defective handbrake problem - rolled off the platform at Slough one evening only to be comprehensively demolished by a passing D8XX hauled passenger train. 

 

Whether it was the BRUTE trolley or the locomotive which came off worse in such encounters must have been down to circumstances - that Warship may have got off lightly, but it was reputedly a collision with a BRUTE trolley at St Austell on 7th February 1974 which wrote off none other than D1000 Western Enterprise. After being towed back to its birthplace for assessment the trolley was found to have caused so much damage to its bufferbeam area and underpinnings that it was withdrawn on 11th February and had been scrapped by August - a sad loss. Just another reason I didn't see the doyen very often and only ever managed to take one photo of it, and that was within its last year (ironically it had been one of the first Westerns I saw, hurtling westwards through Par in summer 1966, by then in maroon livery and still carrying its alloy crests). IIRC in the late '60s Landore had the first batch of dual-braked Westerns (D1013/15/25/26/31/55/61/62/63/66/69) and a solitary vac-only example - guess which?! These Landore Westerns rarely if ever turned up in the far South West back then, as the new Mark 2a stock kept them fully occupied on Paddington to South Wales services. That doesn't explain D1000 though.....🤔!

 

The RCTS Coaching Stock book 1976 identifies the BR GUVs "fitted with hinged beam for carrying 'Brute' vehicles". Scanning the pages I'd say about half of them were so fitted. It also then states that "86307 & 86872 are modified to carry 'Brute' vehicles", but these two are not amongst those fitted with hinged beams, so how this pair differed from the rest is anyone's guess! However, and going back to the OP's original question, whether the identified GUVs all lost their steps is difficult to say - logically if they posed a problem then 'in with the hinged beams and off with the steps', but logic didn't always apply on the railway 🥴!

 

 

[The Johnster]

British Rail Utility Trolley Equipment.  Horrible things, I drove the Royal Mali battery tug at Cardiff Central in the late 80s/early 90s, and developed the skill of backing two of them into the lift, first one in, uncouple, second one in side by side.  They were no better at tracking straight than a supermarket trolley and the brakes were either non/barely funtional or jammed on.  The cause of many minor injuries and some more serious ones related to the spring-loaded brake handle, and the reason steel-toecap Dr Martens were absolutely essential; I used to go through a pair in about 3 months on this job.  The Lansing was capable of 4 loaded or 10 empties.  I 'sligthly contacted and demolished' (my wording on the report) a lit timetable display on p3/4 with one one night; there are people, I won't call them friends, who still remember this event and remind me of it if they see me in 'Spoons in town.  Royal Mail had never bothered to train me to drive the tug, and there was a bit of a row, the result of which I was summarily trained the following night, or at least was required to sign a thing saying that I had been... 

 

Naughty. 

 

One of my colleages, also untrained in tug driving, U-turned a drag of four of them too tightly at the Newport end of 3/4 one evening resulting in the rear pair sliding sideways off p4 onto the track.  With a Portsmouth-Cardiff Premium Parcels waiting at the gantry on the down relief on the bank, and Mark in a total tizzy down in the 4' throwing mail bags on to the platform and demanding that I help him, I did the right thing by my railway training and phoned the panel from the signal at the Newport end of 4.  He was furious, calling me a grass and a lot worse, but once I knew the Portsmouth was not going to descend on us round the corner like a 47-shaped Sword of Damocles I got down and helped him.  Then went back on the phone to the panel to inform them the line was now clear, by which time the BR platform staff had turned up, mob-handed and with an inspector who was rather perturbed to see me on a railway phone.  Four minutes delay to a Premium Parcels carrying first-class mail should have resulted in questions being asked, including the matter of my illicit use of a BR phone, but I never heard any more about it.  Summer 1988.

Edited July 8 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

Whether it was the BRUTE trolley or the locomotive which came off worse in such encounters must have been down to circumstances - that Warship may have got off lightly, but it was reputedly a collision with a BRUTE trolley at St Austell on 7th February 1974 which wrote off none other than D1000 Western Enterprise. After being towed back to its birthplace for assessment the trolley was found to have caused so much damage to its bufferbeam area and underpinnings that it was withdrawn on 11th February and had been scrapped by August - a sad loss. Just another reason I didn't see the doyen very often and only ever managed to take one photo of it, and that was within its last year (ironically it had been one of the first Westerns I saw, hurtling westwards through Par in summer 1966, by then in maroon livery and still carrying its alloy crests). IIRC in the late '60s Landore had the first batch of dual-braked Westerns (D1013/15/25/26/31/55/61/62/63/66/69) and a solitary vac-only example - guess which?! These Landore Westerns rarely if ever turned up in the far South West back then, as the new Mark 2a stock kept them fully occupied on Paddington to South Wales services. That doesn't explain D1000 though.....🤔!

 

The RCTS Coaching Stock book 1976 identifies the BR GUVs "fitted with hinged beam for carrying 'Brute' vehicles". Scanning the pages I'd say about half of them were so fitted. It also then states that "86307 & 86872 are modified to carry 'Brute' vehicles", but these two are not amongst those fitted with hinged beams, so how this pair differed from the rest is anyone's guess! However, and going back to the OP's original question, whether the identified GUVs all lost their steps is difficult to say - logically if they posed a problem then 'in with the hinged beams and off with the steps', but logic didn't always apply on the railway 🥴!

 

 

By then 1000s were being condemned for the most minor of things - basically anything that cost money to repair and it was instant condemnation.

 

I do wonder  if 86307 and 86872 were modified for something to do with BRUTES rather than for BRUTES. themselves?  A 'BRUTE vehicle' could possibly have been a POLT (Power Operated Lifting Turntable) which apparently did exactly what the name said and was a more sophisticated alternative to shoving a BRUTE up a bridging board to get it into a rail vehicle.  I never saw one so I haven't got a clue what they looked like or how big/small they were.

 

Incidentally - having to correct 'Johnster' once again - BRUTE Stood for British Rail Universal Troiley Equipment.      The Post Office ones were a slight variant on the original BR design and I believe incorporated a revision of the second design of brake.  Originally a hydraulic brake was used on BRUTEs but it was rapidly found to vary between unreliable and downright useless so a mechanical brake replaced it fairly quickly.

[Halvarras]

16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

By then 1000s were being condemned for the most minor of things - basically anything that cost money to repair and it was instant condemnation.

 

I do wonder  if 86307 and 86872 were modified for something to do with BRUTES rather than for BRUTES. themselves?  A 'BRUTE vehicle' could possibly have been a POLT (Power Operated Lifting Turntable) which apparently did exactly what the name said and was a more sophisticated alternative to shoving a BRUTE up a bridging board to get it into a rail vehicle.  I never saw one so I haven't got a clue what they looked like or how big/small they were.

 

Incidentally - having to correct 'Johnster' once again - BRUTE Stood for British Rail Universal Troiley Equipment.      The Post Office ones were a slight variant on the original BR design and I believe incorporated a revision of the second design of brake.  Originally a hydraulic brake was used on BRUTEs but it was rapidly found to vary between unreliable and downright useless so a mechanical brake replaced it fairly quickly.

 

A hydraulic brake on a BRUTE trolley sounds like over-engineering to me - should have applied the KISS principle from the outset!

 

Regarding the 1000s, I probably wasn't the only one in the mid '70s who became perturbed at the number of locos being written off in various ways including low-speed depot collisions - usually with something else but occasionally with each other, D1046 and D1064 come instantly to mind - so much so that I even began to wonder if it was happening intentionally! However looking back now I suspect such incidents were fairly common, locos were normally repaired and we never got to hear about them - but the 1000 rundown wasn't normal, the grapevine was buzzing and, as you say, anything costing money to fix would lead to withdrawal so it gave a misleading impression. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Utility

 

Universal.

 

Mike.

[45125]

Remember servicing BRUTEs whilst doing my apprenticeship, surprising how many variants there was. All had a plate with serial number and what Mark it was, the highest from memory was a MK8.

 

[bradfordbuffer]

8 different mks of brute! 

when at Oxford in 88 I was trained on the Bradshaw truck and used it as my personal mobility scooter when on red star duties pottering from up side to down side with wobbling brute's clattering over the 4 track barrow crossing at North end of station with far more in tow that was allowed 🥴 when half way over foot hard down to get up the platform ramp!

We had some yellow ones and some black ones that where not to leave the station. I even set one up as station sign cleaning tool trolly with a ladder strapped into it, buckets of soapy water and the obligatory tin of 'chemco' pink cleaning cream ....cut through the layer of brake dust on the signs drove from sign to sign! Got a bollocking from station supervisor then a well done from area manager as water and ladders out of the way of punters tripping over them! Towed by my Bradshaw....

 

 

 

[hmrspaul]

Brutes went largely unrecorded. I certainly never photographed one! A friend who has produced a drawing of a Brute struggled to find photos of them - and he did do his own photography, often of more unusual topics. 

 

Paul

[Trestrol]

Always remember before applying the parking brake to remove your fingers from under the other brake handle. Or it would remove your fingers for you. I still have the little booklet somewhere on using them.

[roythebus1]

Somewhere around I may have some official photos of BRUTES, acquired from the Plans Arch at Waterloo.

[bradfordbuffer]

12 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Somewhere around I may have some official photos of BRUTES, acquired from the Plans Arch at Waterloo.

Be careful with any Internet search you conduct think I've just ruined my search history...some strange recommendations now coming through! 

[Robert Shrives]

An interesting read check out the Barrowmore clubs on line BR drawings information shows GUVs and BGs - GUV steps do not show on all diagrams but BG drawing across many build lots all have steps. 

BRUTEs at BHM tended to end up in daylight as spotters seats  but at night would rattle and crash up the now removed RM undercroft ramps at the B end - notices advising death likely if looking for a short cut RM drivers did not take any prisoners- but then brakes were optional as noted  and yes some did go track side now and again.  

Robert 

[73c]

39 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Somewhere around I may have some official photos of BRUTES, acquired from the Plans Arch at Waterloo.

Next to the Lamp Arch and the lift for the W&C Line stock, if I remember correctly.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, 45125 said:

Remember servicing BRUTEs whilst doing my apprenticeship, surprising how many variants there was. All had a plate with serial number and what Mark it was, the highest from memory was a MK8.

 

 

I've identified 4 differently constructed BRUTE trolleys, whether there are 8 though I'm not so sure.

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Brutes went largely unrecorded. I certainly never photographed one! A friend who has produced a drawing of a Brute struggled to find photos of them - and he did do his own photography, often of more unusual topics. 

 

Paul

Alas in one of my past jobs I did (sort of) record them - on paper as I used to do the Divisional daily BRUTE balance figures.  All stations. using them submitted a daily return which I then added together to produce a Divisional total of BRUTES on hand at 06.00 which was then reported to RHQ for them to produce a Regional total.

 

It was probably about as useful as chocolate teapot as each station had to report number forwarded, number received, in the previous 24 hours then number on hand at 06.00.  Obviously the numbers should have balanced as they started from the previous day's total but that seemed to unachievable for Paddington (in particular).

[roythebus1]

38 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Alas in one of my past jobs I did (sort of) record them - on paper as I used to do the Divisional daily BRUTE balance figures.  All stations. using them submitted a daily return which I then added together to produce a Divisional total of BRUTES on hand at 06.00 which was then reported to RHQ for them to produce a Regional total.

 

It was probably about as useful as chocolate teapot as each station had to report number forwarded, number received, in the previous 24 hours then number on hand at 06.00.  Obviously the numbers should have balanced as they started from the previous day's total but that seemed to unachievable for Paddington (in particular).

Did you count the BRUTE that was seen on a barge in the Thames by the Waterloo Pier? :)