Pre-grouping wagon loads

[Andy Hayter]

OT

Cage extensions were common in France and were principally used for converting coal wagons to carry coke.

 

 

[drduncan]

So, as there was a very real and successful lead mining area a couple of miles to the north of the notional location of Nampara, I have been investigating lead mining and refining. 
 

It seems that the ore was often semi or fully refined on site or very nearby. The semi refined lead was pea sized while the fully refined ‘smelted’ was in ingots - often referred to as lead bullion, but that’s not outrageous then you consider how expensive lead was/is and that silver was a considerable by product. 
 

So what would this look like in a wagon? No idea and no pictures so far but I’m assuming the pea sized semi refined product would be in hessian sacks (cheaper and lighter than barrels and the contents won’t spoil). The ingots could be treated like bricks in an open wagon (exact volume in an 8ton wagon tbd) but theft would be a problem, so I think, not withstanding @Compound2632 righteous ire at specialist wagons I think one will be needed: a lidded low sided wagon with big padlocks which can also be used for the silver…I even have a drawing!

 

Duncan

 

 

 

[billbedford]

13 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

It could be but I think whatever it is is on the quay and it looks a bit too tall for a Thames mizzen.  They generally reached up to just above where the mainsail branches away from the main mast.

 

 

This spar visible on the right-hand edge of the photo is the mizzen mast. One of the mizzen stays can be seen just in front of the mast. As for the height, well different owners had different opinions. 

[webbcompound]

56 minutes ago, drduncan said:

So what would this look like in a wagon? No idea and no pictures so far but I’m assuming the pea sized semi refined product would be in hessian sacks (cheaper and lighter than barrels and the contents won’t spoil). The ingots could be treated like bricks in an open wagon (exact volume in an 8ton wagon tbd)

A cubic foot of lead weighs just over 708lbs. A typical  9' wheelbase wagon has a bed aprox 14' x 7', or 98 sq ft. Eight tons of lead would be c 22 cubic feet so in a typical wagon if you spread 8tons of lead evenly it would amount to a layer about three inches deep. A typical man load in a coal sack is 52 pounds, A similar weight of lead would come in a 32 cubic inch bag. which would be 8"x4"x1".  Of course my calculations might be wrong, but this suggests that wagons carrying lead would contain more empty space than lead. 

Edited July 7 by webbcompound

[drduncan]

44 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

A cubic foot of lead weighs just over 708lbs. A typical  9' wheelbase wagon has a bed aprox 14' x 7', or 98 sq ft. Eight tons of lead would be c 22 cubic feet so in a typical wagon if you spread 8tons of lead evenly it would amount to a layer about three inches deep. A typical man load in a coal sack is 52 pounds, A similar weight of lead would come in a 32 cubic inch bag. which would be 8"x4"x2".  Of course my calculations might be wrong, but this suggests that wagons carrying lead would be  contain more empty space than lead. 

Yes you beat me to the maths. My assumption, and it is just that, is that the semi refined product would have a greater volume than the ingots, so a 1plank wagon with a layer of sacks might not be too implausible.

 

The lead wagon drawing shows a relatively small but heavily built wagon (no surprises there).

(Courtesy of @Skinnylinny)

Duncan

Edited July 7 by drduncan

[jcm@gwr]

22 hours ago, drduncan said:

So, as there was a very real and successful lead mining area a couple of miles to the north of the notional location of Nampara, I have been investigating lead mining and refining. 
 

It seems that the ore was often semi or fully refined on site or very nearby. The semi refined lead was pea sized while the fully refined ‘smelted’ was in ingots - often referred to as lead bullion, but that’s not outrageous then you consider how expensive lead was/is and that silver was a considerable by product. 
 

So what would this look like in a wagon? No idea and no pictures so far but I’m assuming the pea sized semi refined product would be in hessian sacks (cheaper and lighter than barrels and the contents won’t spoil). The ingots could be treated like bricks in an open wagon (exact volume in an 8ton wagon tbd) but theft would be a problem, so I think, not withstanding @Compound2632 righteous ire at specialist wagons I think one will be needed: a lidded low sided wagon with big padlocks which can also be used for the silver…I even have a drawing!

 

Duncan

 

 

 

 

I had always assumed that the pea sized semi refined product was glued underneath the wagon, between the solebars!

 

Edited July 8 by jcm@gwr

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

not withstanding @Compound2632 righteous ire at specialist wagons

 

Special wagons can be justified if they are relevant to the local traffic. In most places, they're not, but one can choose to model a place where they are. 

[Paul H Vigor]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Wouldn't the weight of that much stone be something of an overload for the average 5 plank open rated at maybe 8 or 10 tons?

Same goes for a pig iron load. Need to to work out how many sand-cast pigs to the ton!

[Paul H Vigor]

11 hours ago, kevinlms said:

42?

Love your deep thinking! 😉

[drduncan]

On the subject of stone loads see:

https://stoneyard.com/calculators/stone-slab-weight/
 

Using grey granite @ 165lbs/cubic ft a slab 6ftx2ftx2ft would weight a fraction under 2 tons  so 4 per 8 tons open.

 

Duncan

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Special wagons can be justified if they are relevant to the local traffic. In most places, they're not, but one can choose to model a place where they are. 

 

And on passing goods trains on major lines.

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

And on passing goods trains on major lines.

 

No, I'd contend, still extremely rare there, unless there was some specific traffic flow. 

 

To up your chances, model the small hours of a Sunday morning, for an out-of-gauge load.

[jcm@gwr]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, I'd contend, still extremely rare there, unless there was some specific traffic flow. 

 

To up your chances, model the small hours of a Sunday morning, for an out-of-gauge load.

 

But don't forget that you'll have to run it with lights off, to be prototypical!

[Western Star]

On 06/07/2024 at 18:09, magmouse said:

Just to counter the earlier narrative (including mine) about all the interesting loads being sheeted, here are baskets and sacks without sheets, in what looks like a train in transit:

 

 

Photo originally posted here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/113035-more-pre-grouping-wagons-in-4mm-the-d299-appreciation-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5309861

 

Nick.

 

 

G

GWR. 4-plk alert, just one of roughly 25,000 built early 1880 to mid 1900s.

 

Nick, please post the info to our WT PM.

 

Regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Western Star said:

G

GWR. 4-plk alert, just one of roughly 25,000 built early 1880 to mid 1900s.

 

Nick, please post the info to our WT PM.

 

Regards, Graham

 

45161 - old series lot 462 = so a relatively early one - c. 1890?

[Mikkel]

17 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

And on passing goods trains on major lines.

 

 

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, I'd contend, still extremely rare there, unless there was some specific traffic flow. 

 

To up your chances, model the small hours of a Sunday morning, for an out-of-gauge load.

 

That is not what I meant, Stephen. I meant that if one does want to model special wagons - as a result of, God forbid, pure joy in railways - then there may be excuses beyond local traffic. But it depends of course on where the station modelled is situated on the network, etc.

 

 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

as a result of, God forbid, pure joy in railways

 

Come now, you know I'm against fun, don't you?

 

Edited July 8 by Compound2632

[drduncan]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Come now, you know I'm against fun, don't you?

 

True. There’s nothing funny about tension lock couplings.

Duncan

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, drduncan said:

True. There’s nothing funny about tension lock couplings.

Duncan

Depends on whether you mean 'funny ha ha! ' or 'funny peculiar'!

 

Personally I find they fit both categories! 

 

Jim

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

True. There’s nothing funny about tension lock couplings.

Duncan

But if it had other couplings, you'd have difficulty coupling it to this!

 

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

 

Space battle attack giraffe? 

 

My head hurts.

[kevinlms]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Space battle attack giraffe? 

 

My head hurts.

No it's a Sniper.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/65957/tri_ang_r639_sniper_car_d_459/stockdetail

 

Click 2nd photo. Obviously it uses the same model and mechanism, just a different figure and colour scheme.

 

The worst thing is that often you will see questions, asking if there was a prototype for some of these models. Fact is Tri-ang were in the toy business for kids and much of their income was made from this sort of model.

At least I don't believe the Midland Railway, had such stuff in it's inventory!

Edited July 8 by kevinlms
More info

[Chas Levin]

On 06/07/2024 at 10:51, drduncan said:

And I burnt my fingers far too much trying to put together an etched small water tank to sheet it over!

 

Just found this thread, reading through: identified very much with this comment, where I've likewise spent so long on a freight load that I didn't want to sheet it over!

I intend making some deliberately undetailed and broadly sketched shapes, specifically designed to be sheeted over...

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Just found this thread, reading through: identified very much with this comment, where I've likewise spent so long on a freight load that I didn't want to sheet it over!

I intend making some deliberately undetailed and broadly sketched shapes, specifically designed to be sheeted over...

 

'The wagon and its load are one.'

[Schooner]

Oooh, hobbyhorses and boats? Larvely!

 

Bold leap to see a sprit rig and shout "Thames Barge"! A) It was a near universal set up for inshore craft many and varied, right around the country, so the odds are not in one's favour to start with. B) It's as useful as 'tallship' as a noun or adjective...

 

...but yeah, I'm with Bill and reckon it's a big old mulie. Jib stay on the left, so it's no stumpy harbour/river barge, and what looks like pretty staunch stays for a big mizzen. Looking at the spars, a comparatively small  high-aspect main, and a thumping great topsail. Proper coasting barge, exactly what we think of by 'Thames Barge' today and absolutely not what you'd see if watching barges on the Thames pre-War!

 

 

Wagon loads:

Timber timber timber! Native hardwoods out (whole or rough sawn); deals, Canadian/Baltic softwoods and even tropical hardwoods in. As per Stephen, worked wood sheeted, rough likely not. Barely a station worth modelling without a timber yard adjacent, but barely ever modelled.

 

Of possible interest, ball clay. Distinctive, unsheeted, local enough (Dorset/N Devon via LSWR, but more likely from S Devon pits via GWR?), for the production of whiteware and/or sanitaryware ceramics. 

 

On 10/07/2024 at 15:18, Compound2632 said:

'The wagon and its load are one.'

Nice for the wagon-modeller, tricky for the layout designer!

 

 

Edited July 17 by Schooner
Sass reduced; impromptu lecture on the development and requirements of the mulie barge removed