Revolution moves into TT:120 with MMA/JNA

[Dunsignalling]

48 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

No one is offended, just bored. You also might want to check the defintion of "FACTS" as it normally doesn't include opinion or speculation.

1. Given the number of non-Hornby r-t-r locos currently available or announced in UK TT:120, I think it entirely  reasonable to "speculate" that its commercial future will remain entirely dependent on Hornby's continued involvement for some considerable time yet.    

 

2. If you want a model A3 (and a few other things) and, like most of us with limited space, only model in one scale, you have a choice between a Hornby one in TT:120 and a Hornby one in OO. Buying one will in most cases, mean not buying the other. I'd accept that, if you didn't buy a Hornby A4 in OO, you wouldn't buy a Bachmann one either, I'd suggest that, if one has room for two layouts in different scales, one doesn't fit my definition of space-starved.....

 

3. Try listing the number of subjects Hornby are covering in TT:120 that they don't already do in OO; you will not need a large piece of paper.

 

4. It took fifty years for N gauge sales to get to a fifth of OO. Get Real!

 

5. Perfectly reasonable projection. Any such commitment should potentially double the rate of subject growth in TT:120, and might prompt Hornby to increase their own release rate, too.

 

Sorry. I'm bored with your unquestioning faith in Hornby's speculative project now...

Edited July 6 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I fail to see that it's either.

•   TT:120 is here to stay (so long as Hornby stick with it) - FACT
•   The OO producer most likely to be adversely affected by TT:120 is Hornby - FACT
•   Hornby are predominantly repeating their most popular OO models in the new scale - FACT
•  The range of models available in TT:120 will remain small in relation to both N and OO for the foreseeable future. - FACT
• The only thing that would change that substantially would be for another brand to go into head to head range competition with Hornby in the new scale. - FACT
• None of the above come without risk to TT:120, and even Hornby itself. - FACT.
• I've spent tens of thousands of pounds with Hornby over the years, but much less of late because others are offering things I want more.
• Hornby's best stuff is the equal of (and often better than) anything  else on the r-t-r market, but they have made some shocking howlers too, and they do have difficulty competing on price.

I'm sorry if that offends those with quasi-religious views as to Hornby's divine right to success, but how many times do they need to prove otherwise? 

 

 

I don't think you read the bit I was talking about and i stand by what I said about it: "Surely the relentless criticism of Hornby that just repeats things that have been said many time before belongs on that Hornby thread?" The Hornby thread has pages devoted to people (often the same ones after 10 pages or so) saying the same stuff, criticising either Hornby and/or their choices, like RP I'm also bored with it and would have hoped it didn't find it's way here, but it has, sadly. I haven't any views on Hornby's divine rights, whatever they are, do we have to go to church when we buy their stuff? In fact until the release of TT120 I hadn't bought any of theirs for about 50 years as they didn't do what i modelled.

 

Can we not have a TT120 thread without someone coming along and criticising the scale or it's main manufacturer, please? ;)

[Jeff Smith]

Seconded!

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I don't think you read the bit I was talking about and i stand by what I said about it: "Surely the relentless criticism of Hornby that just repeats things that have been said many time before belongs on that Hornby thread?" The Hornby thread has pages devoted to people (often the same ones after 10 pages or so) saying the same stuff, criticising either Hornby and/or their choices, like RP I'm also bored with it and would have hoped it didn't find it's way here, but it has, sadly. I haven't any views on Hornby's divine rights, whatever they are, do we have to go to church when we buy their stuff? In fact until the release of TT120 I hadn't bought any of theirs for about 50 years as they didn't do what i modelled.

 

Can we not have a TT120 thread without someone coming along and criticising the scale or it's main manufacturer, please? ;)

???????

 

Nearly every release so far duplicates something Hornby already make in OO, so you can't have bought much of the TT stuff either......😉

[Hobby]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

1. Given the number of non-Hornby r-t-r locos currently available or announced in UK TT:120, I think it entirely  reasonable to "speculate" that its commercial future will remain entirely dependent on Hornby's continued involvement for some considerable time yet.    

 

No-one has said otherwise, certainly not those of us who are modelling in TT120, you are just repeating what others (and you?) have said many times before on the Hornby thread!

 

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

2. If you want a model A3 (and a few other things) and, like most of us with limited space, only model in one scale, you have a choice between a Hornby one in TT:120 and a Hornby one in OO. Buying one will in most cases, mean not buying the other. I'd accept that, if you didn't buy a Hornby A4 in OO, you wouldn't buy a Bachmann one either, I'd suggest that, if one has room for two layouts in different scales, one doesn't fit my definition of space-starved.....

 

My other two layouts are able to be folded and stored when not in use, hence I can have more than one. Also they are in H0e and so not too large. So you can have more than one with limited space. Whatever that proves I'm not sure!

 

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

3. Try listing the number of TT:120 subjects Hornby are making in TT:120 that they don't already do in OO; you will not need a large piece of paper.

 

So what? It's a new scale and it's early days. If they do just reproduce the existing 00 range it would be no bad thing.

 

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

4. It's taken fifty years for N gauge sales to get to a fifth of OO. Get Real!

 

We have, all the TT120 modellers apart from some very new modellers on FB that haven't modelled before have been very realistic about the timescales and are prepared to wait, the only people who try to use this argument don't even model in the scale!

 

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

5. Perfectly reasonable projection. Any such commitment should potentially double the rate of subject growth in TT:120, and might prompt Hornby to increase their own release rate, too.

 

Again, so what? It's just speculation, if it does, great, if it doesn't, no loss.

 

As for your last post, I haven't modelled in standard gauge 00 scale for over 50 years and never in TT3.

 

Please let's get back to the subject of the thread, Revolution Trains TT120 range.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

1. Given the number of non-Hornby r-t-r locos currently available or announced in UK TT:120, I think it entirely  reasonable to "speculate" that its commercial future will remain entirely dependent on Hornby's continued involvement for some considerable time yet.    

 

2. If you want a model A3 (and a few other things) and, like most of us with limited space, only model in one scale, you have a choice between a Hornby one in TT:120 and a Hornby one in OO. Buying one will in most cases, mean not buying the other. I'd accept that, if you didn't buy a Hornby A4 in OO, you wouldn't buy a Bachmann one either, I'd suggest that, if one has room for two layouts in different scales, one doesn't fit my definition of space-starved.....

 

3. Try listing the number of subjects Hornby are covering in TT:120 that they don't already do in OO; you will not need a large piece of paper.

 

4. It took fifty years for N gauge sales to get to a fifth of OO. Get Real!

 

5. Perfectly reasonable projection. Any such commitment should potentially double the rate of subject growth in TT:120, and might prompt Hornby to increase their own release rate, too.

 

Sorry. I'm bored with your unquestioning faith in Hornby's speculative project now...

Accurascale have asked people what they wanted in TT120, similarly they did the same in N and so far nothing.

 

However, given Accurascale tend to announce when they have something physical to show then probably the N gauge offering is somewhere in the next 12 months.  Imagine if they are actually doing something in TT120 and it was a Class 31, a 37 or a Deltic, of the three I'd put my money on the 37 as it can sit alongside a class 66 and be hauling the wagons announced by RevolutioN as well.  Then there are the various wagons they offer too.  In terms of sales, would Accurascale sell more TT120 class 37s than N gauge ones at this moment, ditto on a class 31, I'm not personally about to sell my Farish ones for an Accurascale I wonder how many other N gaugers might feel similarly, whereas TT120 is there for the taking.

 

Whilst Hornby was only dealing direct with TT120 it rather had the market sewn up as shops were not going to be that interested in the scale as it limited what they could sell and the market was looking online rather than in store for items  But now that the shops can stock Hornby TT120 we can see how people like Malc's Models are now commissioning their own special runs which has led to the first Bachmann items being available.  Ok it's just some scenecraft items and whilst at the lower end of the risk scale it will deliver some sales information from which Bachmann can extrapolate other opportunities.  Similarly the slow pace of product from Hornby is creating a vacuum that Revolution is and potentially Accurascale can take advantage of.

 

Very soon TT120 might have it's own momentum beyond Hornby and then it will cease to be a speculative project.

 

I was handling some TT120 stuff today, first time seeing product in boxes outside of a Hornby stand.  I'm still wedded to N and not about to go up (lol) a scale, but if I was starting out those Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 coaches look nice, there is the class 08, 50 and a HST - enough for a basic railway as a starter.

[Kris]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Accurascale have asked people what they wanted in TT120, similarly they did the same in N and so far nothing.

 

However, given Accurascale tend to announce when they have something physical to show then probably the N gauge offering is somewhere in the next 12 months. 

Someone said that they had asked Accurascale about N gauge in May. They reported that Fran had replied that there had been no progress beyond asking the question. 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, Kris said:

Someone said that they had asked Accurascale about N gauge in May. They reported that Fran had replied that there had been no progress beyond asking the question. 

Wouldn't surprise me, I think TT120 might be more fruitful at this present time for what Accurascale have in their inventory.

 

Apart from coal wagons, I think they'd do well selling coal wagons in N.

[Roy L S]

Hornby have a 37 at a fairly advanced stage of development, personally I would therefore very much doubt that Accurascale would take the huge commercial risk of duplication in what is (and will be for some time to come) still a fledgling scale. As to selling my N 37s for replacement Accurascale versions (or RevolutioN for that matter) were they to ever come about, I only have two, one of those sound fitted at great expense and I wouldn't part with either.

 

That said, the Farish loco while unquestionably a decent enough model is quite a few years old now and surprisingly no sign of a sound upgrade so were such a brand new N Gauge 37 from one of the above (or Bachmann for that matter) showing a step change in quality detail and specification be announced, I would definitely add a couple. 

 

All the above said, it is a fair question to ask whether there might be more pent up demand for a 37 in TT120 over N, there up to now never having been one, and I don't know the answer to that obviously. However, what I would say is that as N is already a well established scale with many more people modelling in it than TT120, and the market for such a "bread and butter" loco is already well established with a proven track record sales wise. Therefore, given the prototype's long life (some still in main line traffic today) and the host of variations/liveries, along with the 66 (and possibly 47) I would think demand would be greater in N at this point and for the foreseeable future, indeed it is probably one of only a few locos that would have a wide enough (and deep enough) appeal to support duplication in the N market.

 

Roy

Edited July 6 by Roy L S

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

No-one has said otherwise, certainly not those of us who are modelling in TT120, you are just repeating what others (and you?) have said many times before on the Hornby thread!

 

 

My other two layouts are able to be folded and stored when not in use, hence I can have more than one. Also they are in H0e and so not too large. So you can have more than one with limited space. Whatever that proves I'm not sure!

 

 

So what? It's a new scale and it's early days. If they do just reproduce the existing 00 range it would be no bad thing.

 

 

We have, all the TT120 modellers apart from some very new modellers on FB that haven't modelled before have been very realistic about the timescales and are prepared to wait, the only people who try to use this argument don't even model in the scale!

 

 

Again, so what? It's just speculation, if it does, great, if it doesn't, no loss.

 

As for your last post, I haven't modelled in standard gauge 00 scale for over 50 years and never in TT3.

 

Please let's get back to the subject of the thread, Revolution Trains TT120 range.

 

 

Given the typical modern consumer's demand for everything yesterday, I find that level of patience both unexpected and admirable. It very much reminds me of decades spent waiting for more than a smattering of Southern models to be made available r-t-r in OO. A surprising amount did eventually materialise, most of it from Hornby, which cemented my affection for the brand forever, and I tend to worry about its health!

 

Something about TT;120 has clearly inspired early adopters in a way that has eluded me, despite my always having nostalgia for a friend's old Tri-ang TT3 layout.

 

I can see that that my criticisms, placed in your context, may seem meaningless, but I am too old and too invested in OO to consider such a change for myself. 

 

Only one thing still nags at me; the fear that, despite other brands happily serving two or more scales with success, Hornby has a less than stellar history when it comes to diversifying from their core activities. Let's hope this one really can thrive without causing collateral damage elsewhere in the business.

 

Good luck to you all. Such levels of optimism deserted my psyche long ago. 🙂

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6 by Dunsignalling

[osbornsmodels]

Isn't this supposed to be a discussion about Revolutions TT entry?

[woodenhead]

24 minutes ago, osbornsmodels said:

Isn't this supposed to be a discussion about Revolutions TT entry?

I think it’s valid to muse what the entry of a new manufacturer in the scale might mean for the scale in general.

[PMP]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

The II-AD biomass wagons were orfiginally tooled for Drax as a corporate giveaway. The commercial sale of a limited number was said to be only to get the production run up to a level where the tooling costs per unit were manageable. They were very expensive and like hen's teeth to get hold of. Building a complete train was reportedly near impossible

 

The second run was billed as a teconciliation gesture to the trade , and featured the most startling price cut I can remember . There was one batch, which turned out to be a good deal larrger than the very limited quantity people originally expected. Now a 3rd batch has been announced and the rice has gone back up from £50 for a pack of 2 to £40 a wagon.

 

This isn;t the history of a normal bread and butter product . Go into a model shop and you'll find the shelves loaded with 17'6 underframe wagons. Hornby Drax biomass wagons? Not so much

 

HSTs have been a staple of the trainsets for a long time. How many run scale length HSTs outside of big exhibition layouts I don't know. If you want to do that at home, I suspect N or TT:120 are your best bets. If you want to model an "HST railway" with the things in squadron service it may be your only real option

 

Big exhibition layouts exist. They and the people who hope to be involved with one represent a demand in 4mm . When OO RTR is saturated as it is, and people are tooling up the Worsborough Garrett and Lickey Banker  you;d expect some big modern wagons to hav e been done. 

 

But how much of this stuff spends its life stored in boxes is a good question

You can’t write this stuff, you tell us the mainstream manufacturers don’t make these larger wagons, and then you give us chapter and verse, including pricing on a Hornby product that you tell us they don’t make. 
 

Meanwhile back on planet earth…

[Jeff Smith]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I think it’s valid to muse what the entry of a new manufacturer in the scale might mean for the scale in general.

Yes, but maybe in the other thread

[ruggedpeak]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

1. Given the number of non-Hornby r-t-r locos currently available or announced in UK TT:120, I think it entirely  reasonable to "speculate" that its commercial future will remain entirely dependent on Hornby's continued involvement for some considerable time yet.    

 

2. If you want a model A3 (and a few other things) and, like most of us with limited space, only model in one scale, you have a choice between a Hornby one in TT:120 and a Hornby one in OO. Buying one will in most cases, mean not buying the other. I'd accept that, if you didn't buy a Hornby A4 in OO, you wouldn't buy a Bachmann one either, I'd suggest that, if one has room for two layouts in different scales, one doesn't fit my definition of space-starved.....

 

3. Try listing the number of subjects Hornby are covering in TT:120 that they don't already do in OO; you will not need a large piece of paper.

 

4. It took fifty years for N gauge sales to get to a fifth of OO. Get Real!

 

5. Perfectly reasonable projection. Any such commitment should potentially double the rate of subject growth in TT:120, and might prompt Hornby to increase their own release rate, too.

 

Sorry. I'm bored with your unquestioning faith in Hornby's speculative project now...

There are still not facts 🙄 Not clear what the evidence base for "unquestioning faith" is exactly.....

 

And yes, all new product launches are speculative, that is how business works. Nothing is ever guaranteed, but if businesses didn't speculate we'd never get anything new and still be playing with clockwork tinplate. These Revolution wagons are also speculative.

 

 

[andythenorth]

I wish Revolution luck with these, it's good to see 👍

[GenericRMWebUsername]

8 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Yes, but maybe in the other thread

I'd recommend this thread as a good relief valve:

 

The "Which Manufacturer should enter TT:120?" thread covers the future of the scale and what (if any) opportunity other manufacturers have to join in. With Revolution launching products, I think that would be the appropriate place to discuss big picture outcomes on the future of the scale. That will let the Hornby TT:120 thread be focused on the Hornby TT:120 products and the Revolution MMA/JNA thread focus on the Revolution MMA/JNA wagons. 

 

Cheers!

[ellocoloco]

Well done to Revolution for choosing to produce these wagons and I'm sure this will be rewarded with sales. 

 

I am surprised that so many of the 'experienced commentators' on both this thread and on the Hornby side ignore what Revolution has been keen to point out on their own TT announcement. 'for the first time, offers modellers in Britain the opportunity to purchase ready-to-run models with the correct combination of scale and gauge.'  There will be varied reasons modellers will choose to invest in TT but for me being able to run British outline models without having to faff about with regaugeing or handmade track would be the first. TT came too late for me. I gave up on OO 35yrs ago. The models were rubbish compared to what was available to hobbyists in other parts of the world and although much better now, are still compromised by gauge. Had TT been available then I would have been first in regardless of the selection available.

 

@Revolution Ben If you get round to producing these in HO, please put me down for 12 in NR yellow. 👍

 

 

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

The "Which Manufacturer should enter TT:120?" thread covers the future of the scale and what (if any) opportunity other manufacturers have to join in.

 

It should have been a good thread, granted, but after reading the first two pages I got a feeling of deja-vu with this thread and the Hornby one with long comments knocking the scale/manufacturer from people with no interest in TT120, it ruined it for me.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

Based on numerous factors we have made the decision to give TT:120 a try.  We think it has potential. 

 

There is the (huge) advantage of harmonising scale and gauge and being in line with the rest of the world plus, having seen layouts and handled products by Hornby, Arnold and others, the models have a very pleasing feel to them.

 

If this works then we will look to other models in our range; if it doesn't then we and the wider model railway community can draw conclusions.  This will become apparent over the coming 6 months or so; beyond that there doesn't seem to be much point in endless circular discussions about viability in this thread as there isn't any hard evidence regarding Revolution's entry.

 

What I can say is that pre-orders so far (admittedly less than a week in) have surprised us and are very encouraging.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Bucoops]

The very best of luck with it :)

[MartinRS]

4 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hello all,

 

Based on numerous factors we have made the decision to give TT:120 a try.  We think it has potential. 

 

There is the (huge) advantage of harmonising scale and gauge and being in line with the rest of the world plus, having seen layouts and handled products by Hornby, Arnold and others, the models have a very pleasing feel to them.

 

If this works then we will look to other models in our range; if it doesn't then we and the wider model railway community can draw conclusions.  This will become apparent over the coming 6 months or so; beyond that there doesn't seem to be much point in endless circular discussions about viability in this thread as there isn't any hard evidence regarding Revolution's entry.

 

What I can say is that pre-orders so far (admittedly less than a week in) have surprised us and are very encouraging.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

 

First of all congratulations on supporting TT120. The photos of your 00 and N scale MMA box wagons look to be excellent models. I won't be ordering the TT120 version though, as they are the wrong era for me.

 

I take it you are aware that the recent MalcsModels run of three re-liveried TT120 open wagons sold out in six hours which suggests there is a lot of demand for different wagons in TT120.

Have you considered producing a TT120 9ft and 10ft wheelbase chassis kit with couplers and wheel-sets such as the 9ft RCH one shown in the diagrams reproduced here? I know that this type of model is traditionally produced by PECO, but we'll be into the next ice age by the time they get round to manufacturing one.

 

I'm sure there is lots of demand from intermediate skilled modellers, keen to (paper) print their own wagons, but lacking access to 3d printers necessary for the chassis. How difficult would it be to upscale the 10ft chassis of your N gauge VEA van to TT120? I know that some smaller manufacturers are already producing 3d printed wagon chassis but they require separate purchases of wheels and couplers. An 'off the shelf' chassis would be a great boost for the TT120 scale and I suspect would be very popular.

[Roy L S]

25 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Hi Ben,

 

First of all congratulations on supporting TT120. The photos of your 00 and N scale MMA box wagons look to be excellent models. I won't be ordering the TT120 version though, as they are the wrong era for me.

 

I take it you are aware that the recent MalcsModels run of three re-liveried TT120 open wagons sold out in six hours which suggests there is a lot of demand for different wagons in TT120.

Have you considered producing a TT120 9ft and 10ft wheelbase chassis kit with couplers and wheel-sets such as the 9ft RCH one shown in the diagrams reproduced here? I know that this type of model is traditionally produced by PECO, but we'll be into the next ice age by the time they get round to manufacturing one.

 

I'm sure there is lots of demand from intermediate skilled modellers, keen to (paper) print their own wagons, but lacking access to 3d printers necessary for the chassis. How difficult would it be to upscale the 10ft chassis of your N gauge VEA van to TT120? I know that some smaller manufacturers are already producing 3d printed wagon chassis but they require separate purchases of wheels and couplers. An 'off the shelf' chassis would be a great boost for the TT120 scale and I suspect would be very popular.

I think I am right in saying that the VEA van is a Sonic Models product that RevolutioN supported by helping with marketing and distribution, all Sonic models are now marketed via Rails of Sheffield. Perhaps it might be more viable to approach Peco in a similar vein as they already produce short wheelbase wagon chassis  for their initial TT120 7 plank wagons (in the shops) and have a track record of selling chassis - they have sold their N wagon chassis separately for the last 50 odd years.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Revolution Ben]

2 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Hi Ben,

 

<snipped>

 

I take it you are aware that the recent MalcsModels run of three re-liveried TT120 open wagons sold out in six hours which suggests there is a lot of demand for different wagons in TT120.

Have you considered producing a TT120 9ft and 10ft wheelbase chassis kit with couplers and wheel-sets such as the 9ft RCH one shown in the diagrams reproduced here? I know that this type of model is traditionally produced by PECO, but we'll be into the next ice age by the time they get round to manufacturing one.

 

Hi there,

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

To avoid any confusion there is no chance of us producing kits/scratch aids etc - we are only interested in producing fully finished RTR models and are happy to leave kits to those with more experience and expertise.

 

Also, while we welcome input and suggestions for TT:120, in the forseeable future at least, there is little point in looking beyond what we have already produced in OO, or N, or both.  We are keen to do our bit and believe it has potential, but at this time the TT:120 market is far too much of an unknown for us to research anything that isn't already in our range.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited July 7 by Revolution Ben

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, Roy L S said:

I think I am right in saying that the VEA van is a Sonic Models product that RevolutioN supported by helping with marketing and distribution, all Sonic models are now marketed via Rails of Sheffield. Perhaps it might be more viable to approach Peco in a similar vein as they already produce short wheelbase wagon chassis  for their initial TT120 7 plank wagons (in the shops) and have a track record of selling chassis - they have sold their N wagon chassis separately for the last 50 odd years.

 

Regards

 

Roy

Yes, I know Peco produce a chassis in N gauge, as should be evident from my post. I made dozens of wagons from card way back in the 1970s. My recollection, and I could be wrong, is the chassis kit was basically the same parts used in Peco's range of wagons.

I do have half a dozen of the Peco TT120 open wagons and though I haven't disassembled one yet though from reading the thread in the Peco forum the design of these wagons is unusual in that the brake gear and V hangers are part of the wagon body. It could be the case that this is to eases production, though I don't see how. Creating a stand-alone chassis won't be a case of just packaging the Peco wagon without the body.

 

The cynic in me suggests the Peco wagon has been deliberately designed to make it difficult to sell as a stand-alone chassis to maintain Peco's income stream from new wagons. Fifty years ago, when the Peco N gauge chassis was introduced, home colour printers and 3d printers were not available to the average railway modeller. I have suggested Revolution produce a chassis kit as it would be less of a threat to their income stream. In any case it is not unusual in the World of model railways for different manufacturers to produce similar items.

 

I think whichever manufacturer is first to produce a TT120 chassis kit is likely to find a large market for the product. I just don't think Peco have any real incentive to create such a model.

Edited July 7 by MartinRS
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