Revolution moves into TT:120 with MMA/JNA

[TT100 Diesels]

20 minutes ago, PMP said:

 I’m guessing as this is one of RevolutioN’s best selling 4mm wagons their OO customers all have a ‘credible’ space to run them in.

 

While both the idea of a credible sized layout and the £££££ to fund big trainload rakes is of course very appealing, one can still enjoy these lovely bogie wagons in context on a smaller layout featuring say, a wagon repair depot, cripple sidings, maintenance / spare wagon stabling etc.

 

I would agree that its not the same 'presence' as a trainload rake in action, but us modellers are a creative bunch and we usually 'find a way'!

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

[arran]

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

Compared to?

 

  

 

66s need something more than those flats behind them and there's nothing else on the horizon from Hornby is there?

And these wagons are a current Arnold tooling so it’s not like they have had to tool them up .  
 you do get them in the Uk but they are not common .

Regards Arran

 

[GenericRMWebUsername]

After some time to digest the news, I have to say these new wagons feel truly additive. Lots of people have been urging new manufacturers to jump onboard the TT ship. That impulse, driven by an enthusiasm to add new items to the scale rapidly, is completely understandable. But there's a risk associated with rapid additions. Like a fledgling fire that is only just getting started, you can add too much fuel too quickly and snuff the fire out. Creating a glut of products could cause cannibalization in the market. This scale has robust momentum, but it's still just getting started. As the TT customer base expands, additional manufacturers can add their products to the mix. But this is multi-year process. Not something that can happen overnight. 

 

Revolution's announcement is savvy. It's complimentary to the existing products. Already, I've seen people saying they're buying additional Class 66s because of Revolution's announcement. This has all the hallmarks of a symbiotic relationship. Revolution and Hornby are hopefully both going to benefit from this investment. And where Hornby and Revolution find success, so do the ecosystem of stockists and accessory makers. Everything that is needed to make this a viable scale. 

 

Moreover, after reading the reasoning for choosing this prototype, I'm wholeheartedly sold on the logic behind them. Their ubiquity makes them the perfect choice. While I don't want to declare premature victory, this feels like as natural an entrance into TT as one could hope for.

 

Well done, Revolution!

[Johan DC]

Now just hoping Hornby doesn't announce theirs in the near future. I would think they're past that, but you never know. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

Now just hoping Hornby doesn't announce theirs in the near future. I would think they're past that, but you never know. 

 

The days of Hornby getting away with such games are over, IMHO, and if they did try it on, the market might give them an expensive hiding.

 

The abilities of the collective opposition have continued to advance since "Terriergate" and Hornby's expensive top-heavy 20th century corporate structure disadvantages them against the more efficient business models of their competitors.

 

Hence their rebalancing of the business away from the ever-growing competition in OO.

 

Edited July 5 by Dunsignalling

[Revolution Ben]

9 hours ago, PMP said:

 I’m guessing as this is one of RevolutioN’s best selling 4mm wagons their OO customers all have a ‘credible’ space to run them in.

 

Yes, but up to a point.

 

In absolute terms, sales of these wagons in OO and N have been broadly similar but in OO a larger number of customers bought on average fewer wagons each than the smaller number of N gauge enthusiasts, though of course there are outliers in both scales.

 

This suggests to me that modellers will tend to run the length of train they can comfortably accommodate, and come as close as they can to the lengths of the prototype.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[PMP]

51 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

This suggests to me that modellers will tend to run the length of train they can comfortably accommodate, and come as close as they can to the lengths of the prototype.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Absolutely! That’s always been the case, as modellers we adapt and compromise.

 

The earlier suggested concept that in 4mm you can’t build an aggregates operation, or quarry, because you haven’t got the space for 10 of these vehicles is utterly bizarre! You wonder what’s happened to all those HST’s that people have bought over the years!

 

I’m really pleased to see these, even though they’re ‘not for me’. If they’re to the same standard as your A/B tanks of yours that I have in N, TT120 purchasers are in for a treat. 

[Revolution Mike]

Our experience across both 2mm and 4mm is that there is plenty of room (no pun intended!) for modellers buying 1 wagon through to in some cases several rakes. Everyone cuts their cloth according to their own personal circumstances (as should be the case).

 

Funnily enough when I was looking at our list of existing models I was thinking that the Class A and B tanks could be useful!

 

cheers Mike

[Roy L S]

Class A and B tanks would go perfectly with the J50 and the green and blue 08 variants (plus of course the Hornby 37 when it arrives).

 

Roy

[Ravenser]

On 04/07/2024 at 23:07, PMP said:

 I’m guessing as this is one of RevolutioN’s best selling 4mm wagons their OO customers all have a ‘credible’ space to run them in.

 

Not necessarily....

 

A substantial number of 4mm modern image modellers have their stock in boxes, against the hoped-for day when they actually have space to build a layout. From personal experience I can think of quite a few people in that end of the hobby who are active stock-buyers and stock-builders but have never had a layout of their own - and still haven't although I must have known them twenty years or more. The aspiration to be involved with a club exhibition layout is often the missing link. 

 

These people, who have no obvious hope of building a layout they can actually run their stock on, are surely the biggest potential target for TT:120 in terms of existing modellers adopting the scale. People who have already built a layout in 4mm or N (or even O) are presumably satistified with their chosen gauge and wouldn't move to TT:120 . People who simply don't have the space to run the sort of big modern stuff they aspire to in 4mm might be tempted by a smaller gauge in which they could. If they are currently in 4mm but blocked, then presumably N gauge doesn't cut it for them - N has been around for decades. Maybe a bigger scale (which is still a lot smaller than 4mm) might do the trick ?

 

So a big wagon like this, that typically runs in longish block trains, looks like a good choice to offer in TT:120  

 

RevolutioN originated as an N gauge specialist , as the name suggests. The OO wagons are a essentially a spinff. And as far as I can see more or less all the wagons Revolution do in OO are big bogie types from the last 40 years or so. (The one exception isn't really: the IPAs are coupled twin sets of very long wheelbase 4 wheelers. Not small beasts)

 

If everything you do in 4mm is a big modern bogie wagon , then your sales figures tell you what's the most popular such wagon. They don't tell you how they sell compared with 17'6" RCH underframe types  , or what proportion of buyers leave the models in their boxes in hope. People have speculated in RTR threads that figures for defective returns of locos are badly distorted because so many locos are never run . locos not run  :  

Quote

 Again a lot of these issues only arise if you take them out of the box and run them on a layout.

 

Quote

Your concluding sentence says it all Ray. 

The situation for wagons isn't likely to be better

 

I hope TT:120 offers a cure for this 

 

I suspect there's a reason why all these big modern wagons in 4mm have been left to a specialist like Revolution . They're niche subjects, because they are space hogs

 

  

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Not necessarily....

 

A substantial number of 4mm modern image modellers have their stock in boxes, against the hoped-for day when they actually have space to build a layout. From personal experience I can think of quite a few people in that end of the hobby who are active stock-buyers and stock-builders but have never had a layout of their own - and still haven't although I must have known them twenty years or more. The aspiration to be involved with a club exhibition layout is often the missing link. 

 

These people, who have no obvious hope of building a layout they can actually run their stock on, are surely the biggest potential target for TT:120 in terms of existing modellers adopting the scale. People who have already built a layout in 4mm or N (or even O) are presumably satistified with their chosen gauge and wouldn't move to TT:120 . People who simply don't have the space to run the sort of big modern stuff they aspire to in 4mm might be tempted by a smaller gauge in which they could. If they are currently in 4mm but blocked, then presumably N gauge doesn't cut it for them - N has been around for decades. Maybe a bigger scale (which is still a lot smaller than 4mm) might do the trick ?

 

So a big wagon like this, that typically runs in longish block trains, looks like a good choice to offer in TT:120  

 

RevolutioN originated as an N gauge specialist , as the name suggests. The OO wagons are a essentially a spinff. And as far as I can see more or less all the wagons Revolution do in OO are big bogie types from the last 40 years or so. (The one exception isn't really: the IPAs are coupled twin sets of very long wheelbase 4 wheelers. Not small beasts)

 

If everything you do in 4mm is a big modern bogie wagon , then your sales figures tell you what's the most popular such wagon. They don't tell you how they sell compared with 17'6" RCH underframe types  , or what proportion of buyers leave the models in their boxes in hope. People have speculated in RTR threads that figures for defective returns of locos are badly distorted because so many locos are never run . locos not run  :  

 

The situation for wagons isn't likely to be better

 

I hope TT:120 offers a cure for this 

 

I suspect there's a reason why all these big modern wagons in 4mm have been left to a specialist like Revolution . They're niche subjects, because they are space hogs

 

  

Though that assumes that a large number of 4mm modellers don't also find TT:120 unacceptably small for their tastes. 

 

Also, of course, TT:120 offers a much narrower range of models than N, many of which don't "go together" in terms of era or area; requiring adoptees to live under Rule One for many years to come. The same reason it took N twenty-odd years to really get established commercially.

 

The reasons for choosing or not choosing particular scales go far wider than mere size. A pal of mine changed from a continuous run in N to an end-to-end in O, re-using the same 18' x 2' baseboard that is the largest he can accommodate. Had he gone from N to TT, he would still have lost the option of a continuous run.

 

Also, of course, while Hornby need TT:120 to thrive, it becomes a danger if it does too-well-too-quickly in attracting defectors from OO. Hornby is mainly recreating its OO range in the smaller size, and substantially in order of popularity.  So rapid switching, or indeed adoption of TT by new modellers in preference to OO would logically affect Hornby's traditional (and probably more profitable) market first. 

 

The prototype choices of "the others" in OO tend to be less "populist" than Hornby's and attract different buyers. Much is said of the hazards of duplication, but most of that is surely perpetrated by Hornby, on Hornby.

 

Hornby's most serious competitor may therefore be Hornby.....

 

  

Edited July 6 by Dunsignalling

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though that assumes that a large number of 4mm modellers don't also find TT:120 unacceptably small for their tastes. 

 

Also, of course, TT:120 offers a much narrower range of models than N, many of which don't "go together" in terms of era or area; requiring adoptees to live under Rule One for many years to come. The same reason it took N twenty-odd years to really get established commercially.

 

The reasons for choosing or not choosing particular scales go far wider than mere size. A pal of mine changed from a continuous run in N to an end-to-end in O, re-using the same 18' x 2' baseboard that is the largest he can accommodate. Had he gone from N to TT, he would still have lost the option of a continuous run.

 

Also, of course, while Hornby need TT:120 to thrive, it becomes a danger if it does too-well-too-quickly in attracting defectors from OO. Hornby is mainly recreating its OO range in the smaller size, and substantially in order of popularity.  So rapid switching, or indeed adoption of TT by new modellers in preference to OO would logically affect Hornby's traditional (and probably more profitable) market first. 

 

The prototype choices of "the others" in OO tend to be less "populist" than Hornby's and attract different buyers. Much is said of the hazards of duplication, but most of that is surely perpetrated by Hornby, on Hornby.

 

Hornby's most serious competitor may therefore be Hornby.....

 

  

Surely the relentless criticism of Hornby that just repeats things that have been said many times before belongs on that Hornby thread?

 

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

RevolutioN originated as an N gauge specialist , as the name suggests. The OO wagons are a essentially a spinff......

I suspect there's a reason why all these big modern wagons in 4mm have been left to a specialist like Revolution . They're niche subjects, because they are space hogs 

Revolution don't just do wagons in OO, their expanding range includes a coach, a loco and several multiple units.

 

https://revolutiontrains.com/projects/

 

And all manufacturers do big modern wagons - container KFA's are a mainstay of the Hornby range, JNA's in Dapol, Accurascale with IIA, HYA etc, and Bachmann have a whole raft of large modern wagons in their range (Lobster, HRA, BRA etc) etc etc. So not sure it is a niche for specialists.

Edited July 6 by ruggedpeak
typo

[woodenhead]

I think the fact that RevolutioN and Bachmann (Scenecraft) have introduced models in TT120 this week is an indication that the potential market is growing in this scale.

 

Whilst these may be tentative first steps it shows that Hornby will not be alone in this scale and that will mean it is less precarious and will only become more attractive to modellers.

 

I expect something from Accurascale next and that would set the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

 

[Revolution Mike]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Not necessarily....

 

A substantial number of 4mm modern image modellers have their stock in boxes, against the hoped-for day when they actually have space to build a layout. 

 

 

So a big wagon like this, that typically runs in longish block trains, looks like a good choice to offer in TT:120  

 

RevolutioN originated as an N gauge specialist , as the name suggests. The OO wagons are a essentially a spinff. And as far as I can see more or less all the wagons Revolution do in OO are big bogie types from the last 40 years or so. (The one exception isn't really: the IPAs are coupled twin sets of very long wheelbase 4 wheelers. Not small beasts)

 

If everything you do in 4mm is a big modern bogie wagon , then your sales figures tell you what's the most popular such wagon. They don't tell you how they sell compared with 17'6" RCH underframe types  , :  

 

I suspect there's a reason why all these big modern wagons in 4mm have been left to a specialist like Revolution . They're niche subjects, because they are space hogs

 

  

I fear you are overthinking some of this - none of us can ever have a clear understanding of the amount of models that are purchased but not used. 
 

Although we started with N gauge, our first OO model was actually our 3rd model (the TEA bogie tank). We haven’t used the RevolutioN branding for some time! Furthermore there are some models that we’ve done in OO but not N eg KSAs, Cl 18, TUAs etc and others that the N models have largely been developed on the back of OO. So I think spinoff is not the word I’d use for our OO models. 

 

As to bogie vs 4-wheel - that’s more a reflection on the railways of the last 30+ years rather than any attempt to cover a niche. The EALNOS boxes are some of the most numerous wagons on the modern network over the last decade! We haven’t done RCH designs as that isn’t our area of knowledge (both in terms of the prototype or potential market). Having said all of which we’ve still produced: 35T tanks (in N as Heljan had already done them in OO) and Zander conversions; PCAs; TUAs; with 4-wheel iron ore hoppers (dia 1/163-) in CAD at the moment. 
 

Of course you’re right that there is an inherent bias in our data towards sales of models that we’ve produced in other scales but it also means we can utilise the research we’ve already done without having to start from scratch in researching a completely new model (and having no sales data to base decisions on). 
 

Cheers Mike

[woodenhead]

@Revolution Mike I still use the capitalised N as they’re the models I buy from you.

 

I won’t mention the three car DMU in that scale, oh I have now haven’t I, no one will notice.  Having said that said DMU would go nice alongside a blue grey HST or class 50 or future class 37 in TT120

[Hobby]

25 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Surely the relentless criticism of Hornby that just repeats things that have been said many time before belongs on that Hornby thread?

 

I'd rather it went unsaid and didn't appear anywhere. It's just small-minded and pointless.

[PMP]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

I suspect there's a reason why all these big modern wagons in 4mm have been left to a specialist like Revolution . They're niche subjects, because they are space hogs

 

  

That’s energy efficient thinking at its very best.

Why have Lima and Hornby made 4mm HST sets?

 

Why did Bachmann do 4mm Freightliner wagons or HRA’s?

 

Why did Hornby do KFA or II-AD Biomass wagons?

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

I'd rather it went unsaid and didn't appear anywhere. It's just small-minded and pointless.

I fail to see that it's either.

•   TT:120 is here to stay (so long as Hornby stick with it) - FACT
•   The OO producer most likely to be adversely affected by TT:120 is Hornby - FACT
•   Hornby are predominantly repeating their most popular OO models in the new scale - FACT
•  The range of models available in TT:120 will remain small in relation to both N and OO for the foreseeable future. - FACT
• The only thing that would change that substantially would be for another brand to go into head to head range competition with Hornby in the new scale. - FACT
• None of the above come without risk to TT:120, and even Hornby itself. - FACT.
• I've spent tens of thousands of pounds with Hornby over the years, but much less of late because others are offering things I want more.
• Hornby's best stuff is the equal of (and often better than) anything  else on the r-t-r market, but they have made some shocking howlers too, and they do have difficulty competing on price.

I'm sorry if that offends those with quasi-religious views as to Hornby's divine right to success, but how many times do they need to prove otherwise? 

 

Edited July 6 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

46 minutes ago, Revolution Mike said:

I fear you are overthinking some of this - none of us can ever have a clear understanding of the amount of models that are purchased but not used. 
 

......

 

As to bogie vs 4-wheel - that’s more a reflection on the railways of the last 30+ years rather than any attempt to cover a niche. The EALNOS boxes are some of the most numerous wagons on the modern network over the last decade! We haven’t done RCH designs as that isn’t our area of knowledge (both in terms of the prototype or potential market). Having said all of which we’ve still produced: 35T tanks (in N as Heljan had already done them in OO) and Zander conversions; PCAs; TUAs; with 4-wheel iron ore hoppers (dia 1/163-) in CAD at the moment. 
 

 

 

I wasn't particularly suggesting Revolution should produce 4 wheel wagons , or that you were deliberately targeting them. It;s more the thought that the modern freight railway has evolved into something that has become pretty difficult to model in 4mm, at least at home. The passenger railway is different : 2 and 3 car DMUs are perfectly manageable . But freight is a different story, and it seems to be freight that contemporary modellers want to model.

 

Logically this kind of model railway would have to move into the smaller scales. And that seems to be the pattern, with you building a business producing big modern stuff in N and then moving into 4mm where the same subjects were still available in an age when everything seems to be  being duplicated and triplicated (3 x  class 31, 3 x class 60, 3 x class 25)

 

It;s obvious how a second smaller scale might fit in here.

 

The number of modellers who are avidly building a collection of locos and rolling stock but who have no layout of their own, on enquiry seem never to have built one ,and have no prospec#t of doing so because their housing simply won't accomodate the sort of layout needed to run the kind of stock they;re collecting , is a social phenomenon I've been very aware of in the D+E scene for at least 20 years. There seem to be lots and lots of people like that

 

I can't help feeling it would be better all round if they were able to build layouts and get further with their hobby. Having a second small scale could help the situation. Those for whom N is an answer are presumably already in N. Maybe 1/120 scale could be an answer for some of those for whom it isn;t. I;m not expecting a mass exodus, but a steady trickle of 4mm collectors into TT:120 layout building could be very significant in terms of a niche scale like TT

 

What Revolution are doing here opens up those possibilities

[spamcan61]

24 minutes ago, PMP said:

That’s energy efficient thinking at its very best.

Why have Lima and Hornby made 4mm HST sets?

 

Why did Bachmann do 4mm Freightliner wagons or HRA’s?

 

Why did Hornby do KFA or II-AD Biomass wagons?

 

 

Not to mention several different OO 'big' wagon types from Dapol.

[Ravenser]

22 minutes ago, PMP said:

That’s energy efficient thinking at its very best.

Why have Lima and Hornby made 4mm HST sets?

 

Why did Bachmann do 4mm Freightliner wagons or HRA’s?

 

Why did Hornby do KFA or II-AD Biomass wagons?

 

 

 

 

The II-AD biomass wagons were orfiginally tooled for Drax as a corporate giveaway. The commercial sale of a limited number was said to be only to get the production run up to a level where the tooling costs per unit were manageable. They were very expensive and like hen's teeth to get hold of. Building a complete train was reportedly near impossible

 

The second run was billed as a teconciliation gesture to the trade , and featured the most startling price cut I can remember . There was one batch, which turned out to be a good deal larrger than the very limited quantity people originally expected. Now a 3rd batch has been announced and the rice has gone back up from £50 for a pack of 2 to £40 a wagon.

 

This isn;t the history of a normal bread and butter product . Go into a model shop and you'll find the shelves loaded with 17'6 underframe wagons. Hornby Drax biomass wagons? Not so much

 

HSTs have been a staple of the trainsets for a long time. How many run scale length HSTs outside of big exhibition layouts I don't know. If you want to do that at home, I suspect N or TT:120 are your best bets. If you want to model an "HST railway" with the things in squadron service it may be your only real option

 

Big exhibition layouts exist. They and the people who hope to be involved with one represent a demand in 4mm . When OO RTR is saturated as it is, and people are tooling up the Worsborough Garrett and Lickey Banker  you;d expect some big modern wagons to hav e been done. 

 

But how much of this stuff spends its life stored in boxes is a good question

[rob D2]

Master stroke I reckon. Something decent for the 66s when they come .

 

As for the witherings about space . I model OO , just got some TT for a go at a roundy roundy : I still haven’t the space to model a 50 and 13 coach West Country jumbo train but a 50 and 5 coaches looks proportionally less Stoopid than a 50 and two coaches ! I’m sure other people  will share that idea 

Edited July 6 by rob D2

[The Stationmaster]

This is an interesting development and should give Hornby cause to be looking over their shoulder when it comes to developing their own range.  Widening the appeal of TT120 with things like these wagons is a sensible step and one which Hornby should exploit as giving impetus to expand their own range and make sure that it comes to market in sufficient quantities.

 

But at the same time it drops Hornby back into the dilemma that led them to go for a new niche in the first because - just like 00 although thus far on a much smaller scale - others are creeping into their market and providing alternative places for folk to now spend their TT120 money.  I hope that Hornby, for their own sakes, can properly manage the growth of what they offer to work to their advantage by expanding their own sales of TT120 as the market widens and starts to diversify.  However they definitely need to do a far better job in this scale than they have done (thus far?) in 00 when it comes to dealing with a diversifying market place.

 

And I wish Revolurtion well with their bold move to pastures new.

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I fail to see that it's either.

•   TT:120 is here to stay (so long as Hornby stick with it) - FACT (speculation - not true if Hornby stop but others continue with it...)
•   The OO producer most likely to be adversely affected by TT:120 is Hornby - FACT (speculation not a fact)
•   Hornby are predominantly repeating their most popular OO models in the new scale - FACT (Opinion)
•  The range of models available in TT:120 will remain small in relation to both N and OO for the foreseeable future. - FACT (speculation)
• The only thing that would change that substantially would be for another brand to go into head to head range competition with Hornby in the new scale. - FACT (speculation)
• None of the above come without risk to TT:120, and even Hornby itself. - FACT. (nothing is risk free so self evident)
• I've spent tens of thousands of pounds with Hornby over the years, but much less of late because others are offering things I want more. (strangely not identified as a FACT even though it is probably the first one in the post ....)
• Hornby's best stuff is the equal of (and often better than) anything  else on the r-t-r market, but they have made some shocking howlers too, and they do have difficulty competing on price. (Opinion, can think of a few people who might robustly dispute that opinion)

I'm sorry if that offends those with quasi-religious views as to Hornby's divine right to success, but how many times do they need to prove otherwise? 

 

No one is offended, just bored. You also might want to check the defintion of "FACTS" as it normally doesn't include opinion or speculation.

[Erixtar1992]

Nice one guys, i hope these sell well! Its the first TT announcement thats made me think more seriously about the scale, if it continues then i may have to take the plunge at some point…