Loco / Carriage advice 1980s

[Austin Allegro]

I was wondering if anyone would be able to give me advice around the locos and rolling stock used on a couple of French routes in the 1980s as I’d quite like to do a small layout based upon them both.

 

They’re both from the mid 1980s, probably no later than 1988 basis that’s when we stopped going on holiday to France and definitely no later than summer 1990.

 

The first one is what loco and rolling stock was used for the boat trains between the northern ports - Bolougne, Calais annd Dieppe to Paris. I only have vague memories as we never took the ferries at the most sociable of times and I don’t remember the locos at all.

 

The second one is the train from Paris to Toulouse around that time, both the sleeper trains and day trains.

 

I always remember being fascinated by the nez-casse locos but cannot remember if they pulled the trains, nor the livery of the locos.

 

unfortunately despite spending many summers on trains around Europe thanks to my dad’s FIP, all the photos of the trains and their negatives were destroyed in a garage flood. 😕

 

With me looking at starting a TT layout, now might be a good chance to model a generic southern England / Northern France layout so I can chop and change depending on the mood but also see there’s plenty in H0 scale too.

[Neils WRX]

I did the boat trains from both Calais and Boulogne, on both occasions they were hauled by pairs of 67/4’s which went right though to Gare du Nord.

 

The coaching stock is a bit more of a mystery I’m afraid!!!

 

 

[Gordonwis]

6 hours ago, Austin Allegro said:

 

With me looking at starting a TT layout, now might be a good chance to model a generic southern England / Northern France layout so I can chop and change depending on the mood but also see there’s plenty in H0 scale too.

 

 

You need to be doing N or HO for French outline

[Gordonwis]

Locos and rolling stock, main lines - SNCF 1980s:

 

Coaches (all main lines)

• top link expresses - Corail stock
• secondary expresses or relief trains: 'vertes' coaches of various types in the then current 'C160' livery green/concrete grey

Locomotives

Short sea channel ports - Paris: 67400 class diesel locos in classic  'Arzens' Blue livery (Coast - Amiens); BB16000 B-B electric locos Amiens - Paris Nord

Dieppe - Paris: 67300 or 67400 Dieppe - Rouen Rive Droite; BB16000 Rouen - Paris St Lazare

Paris - Toulouse: CC6500 ('TEE' livery, BB7200, BB22200 ('Beton' (concrete grey) livery , BB26000 Sybic (beton grey /orange stripe livery ) from 1988

 

If you want chapter and verse on any of the detail please ask or PM me

 

Edited June 26 by Gordonwis

[MrTea]

Hi Austin Allegro,

 

I was intrigued by your post as our family took a couple of trips to the south of France by train in the early 1980s and I have a few photos of my Dad’s from back then. 

If I remember right we took the Motorrail overnight service from Boulogne. There was definitely a switch from diesel to electric traction during the night at Amiens (which was one of the highlights for me as a kid!). 
 

Anyway here are the photos I have that might be of interest:

 

1980, the caption says Calais

 

1981

 

1981, Narbonne (I think)

 

1986

 

1986

 

Hope these are of use!

 

Ian

 

 

[Gordonwis]

Dieppe circa 1986

 

 

[Gordonwis]

A selection of my photos taken in the 1980s and 90s. The stock visible in all the photos was typical of the vehicles and liveries in use throughout that period

 

 

A BB13000 'flatiron' aka 'alligator' aka ' monocabine' hauling a Lille- Nancy portion at Onville. Coaches from front to rear are: 

• a type 'USI' (Unifie de Service Interieur = standard domestic use coach) 
• a type 'UIC' A4B5 1st/2nd composite
• a type 'UIC' B5D 2nd / baggage
• a 'Corail' open 2nd
• a 'Corail open 1st / 2nd composite

 

After the start of the 'Corail' coach ere (first versions introduced 1975), the remaining older standard coaches (ie including the 'UIC' and 'USI' types seen here plus the 'DEV' type) were collectively known as 'vertes' even though the majority ended up in the green / grey 'C160' livery.

 

 

 

The exception to the above comment aboit green/grey coahces was the survival in all green of variosu types of pre-WWII and immediate post war rebuilds which reamine din all oebr green until withdrawal (mainly withdrwan at the end of the 1908s))

 

Here is a 13000 with a mix of 'Metallique Est' (unrebuilt) and 'Bruhat' (rebuilt 1950 steel bodies on pre war chassis)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Paris Est - Basel express formed of a (typical of the era) homogeneous set of Corail stock. 

 

 

Edited June 30 by Gordonwis

[EddieB]

Some family holidays in the early 'seventies involved catching the Folkestone - Boulogne ferry and onward train journeys from Boulogne Maritime.  No similar trips were made during the specific dates requested, and it was only in 1989 that I revisited Boulogne (on a day trip).  However, I think my observations hold for the intervening period.

 

I don't have timetables to hand (which would be the "Continental" supplement to the BR t/t), but it is worth noting that trains out of Boulogne Maritime were often quite long, made up of sleepers/couchette and "day" carriages, often mixed destinations.  Thus it was that various journeys involved a day carriage to Paris (thence coach transfer to Austerlitz or taxi to Est), couchette to Paris Nord, shunt, trip around the Ceinture to Gare du Lyon, attach to train to Milan/Rome (via Simplon) and couchette towards Basle (via Tergnier).

 

Locomotives in the early 'seventies were 66000 (pairs), 67400 (singles or pairs) or 68000 (singles).  I think that by the 'eighties the 67400 were the most common (I have depot allocations for 1982).  As noted, diesel locomotives were exchanged for 16000 electrics at Amiens.

 

I'm no expert on carriages, but those with greater knowledge may be able to add identification.  The first picture (poor quality, I apologise) shows what appears to be an FS carriage with BB67597 (and another 67400) in 1974.  The second and third were taken in 1989, with Y8083 shunting stock and BB67483 about to attach on the train behind (FS sleeper WL AB 61 83 72 71-842-8 at head).  Finally there's a photo of a train bound for Paris (1974, leaving Boulogne Maritime and having dispensed with the pilotman), BB67618 leading.

 

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

First picture - the FS coach on the left is a 'Tipo 1959' standard FS long distance coach (the last FS design before UIC X coaches were added) . Both locos are 67400

 

Second picture: the lead coach is a UIC B10 c10 (ie10 2nd class couchettes compartments) dome roof couchette, rest Corail in original livery

 

Third picture: coach is an FS 'MU' sleeping car

 

Fourth picture: lead coach is a Nord railway 'Torpille' coach (built 1928 - 38), second two coaches are  'long version'  type 'DEV' coaches from the late 1940s early 1950s batch B10 2nd class 10 compartment coaches in the all over green with SNCF parallelogram logo

Edited July 2 by Gordonwis

[John B]

If my recollection is correct, my first trip to Paris was in 1980. On Freddie Laker's short-lived "SeaTrain" (?) service from London to Paris which involved a coach from Victoria to Brighton, a Hydrofoil from Brighton to Dieppe, and a very draughty and rattly Red/Cream liveried SNCF DMU from Dieppe Maritime to Paris. 

 

I'd love to know a) if my recollection of the SNCF DMU was correct, and b) what type it might have been...

[Gordonwis]

10 hours ago, John B said:

If my recollection is correct, my first trip to Paris was in 1980. On Freddie Laker's short-lived "SeaTrain" (?) service from London to Paris which involved a coach from Victoria to Brighton, a Hydrofoil from Brighton to Dieppe, and a very draughty and rattly Red/Cream liveried SNCF DMU from Dieppe Maritime to Paris. 

 

I'd love to know a) if my recollection of the SNCF DMU was correct, and b) what type it might have been...

 

 

The Brighton - Dieppe service was Seajet. It used a Boeing Jetfoil (a variant on the Hydrofoil design) named Normandy Princess. 

 

I worked for the Cooks railway timetable at the time so secured a 'press' free ticket to sample the service in May 1979.

 

Put simply, the Seajet was the most seamless London - Paris journey ever devised and has never been surpassed. And bear in mind this was pre-EU freedom of movement. The coach from Victoria went right into Brighton Marina -  a tiny place compared to most ferry ports, and you were deposited just yards from the craft. The journey across the channel was half the length of the nearby Newhaven ferry which made it seem super quick. At Dieppe, the  craft was able to float into the inner harbour and you disembarked up some steep steps directly onto the quayside just metres from the railway tracks leading to Dieppe maritime station (near the huge level crossing barriers if you remember those). 

 

An SNCF 'Caravelle' 2-car DMU exclusive to the service stood nearby - you boarded and it left for Paris St Lazare within 20 minutes or so of arrival. At this time, the direct route Dieppe - Gisors - Paris was still open to passengers so the train didn't even do the less direct kink via Rouen.

 

 

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Edited July 5 by Gordonwis

[John B]

Thanks, Gordon. I was only 13-ish at the time with a head full of Deltics, so the non-train bits of the journey were a bit lost to time, but I'm glad of the memory jog! The Caravelle, while definitely convenient (I do recall it being right on the quayside) was definitely not the most comfortable ride - but got us direct to St Lazare, from which we departed on electric commuter stock towards Ville D'Avray (just shy of Versailles).

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, John B said:

Thanks, Gordon. I was only 13-ish at the time with a head full of Deltics, so the non-train bits of the journey were a bit lost to time, but I'm glad of the memory jog! The Caravelle, while definitely convenient (I do recall it being right on the quayside) was definitely not the most comfortable ride - but got us direct to St Lazare, from which we departed on electric commuter stock towards Ville D'Avray (just shy of Versailles).

 

 

I've got a photo of the Caravelle somewhere but it hasn't surfaced recently - from among all the other photos being sorted.

 

In the meantime, I have found my relevant notebook. The journey is noted as follows:

 

Trip was Spring Bank Holiday (aka 'Whitsun') 1979

 

Peterborough depart 08.45 in - wait for it  - a Cravens 2 car DMU (51263/56114)  non stop to Kings Cross on the fast lines. I am just turned 64 and was 19 at the time of the trip but I can still recall with absolute clarity the journey in the forward-view facing seats  in the Cravens motor car - it almost broke apart with the strain of running at (slightly over) its official max speed!. 

 

Victoria CS on Southdown coach depart 11.33

Brighton Marina arr 13.51

Jetfoil depart 14.51 - VERY rough seas...

Dieppe arrive into harbour 16.46 CET (17.46 DST)

alongside and jets off: 17.55

Dieppe harbour tracks depart 18.20

Paris St Lazare arr 20.15

The Caravelle was X4774/XR8774 - ie the fourth and last iteration of Caravelle - and one of the last 15 to be built to boot.

 

 

.

 

Edited July 5 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

On 05/07/2024 at 14:11, Gordonwis said:

 

Peterborough depart 08.45 in - wait for it  - a Cravens 2 car DMU (51263/56114)  non stop to Kings Cross on the fast lines. I am just turned 64 and was 19 at the time of the trip but I can still recall with absolute clarity the journey in the forward-view facing seats  in the Cravens motor car - it almost broke apart with the strain of running at (slightly over) its official max speed!. 

 

 

 

I meant to add that the Cravens was an 'ersatzzug' emergency replacement for a 40 minute late running HST service. This sort of thing generally only happens in Switzerland nowadays

 

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