What are the legal issues for clubs seeking 'junior' members?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Most clubs seek younger members and some clubs seem to succeed in attracting members under 18, but what are the legal implications?

 

At what age can unaccompanied young people join a model railway club? Is it 18 or 16?

 

Can a parent designate a 'minder' and if so, does that minder have to be legally certified?

 

It appears that some clubs have attracted 'junior members' - how have they managed it?

 

My club wishes to be seen as being family-friendly, in the sense that children might be allowed to accompany their parent(s) who become full adult members, but what are the issues we need to consider in that slightly different scenario? 

 

One last thought, I would think that using terms like 'junior member' is not a good way of attracting younger members - I would suggest that the term 'student members' sounds far more attractive to a potential younger member..

Edited June 26 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Phil Parker]

Moderator note: Please can we restrict legal advice to those who have a background in this sort of thing, or have been through it. There are RMwebbers who have this knowledge, so let's share it. However, if your legal knowledge is from a tabloid newspaper, we'll pass.

[Gilbert]

Complex subject....the link below may seem a little heavy for the circumstances you describe but does give you a flavour of what needs to be considered.

My own experience of such matters has been in a sports environment including travel etc but the principles are the same - especially if a parent or guardian wants to leave the child with you. Once you understand the "legal" (sorry...) environment you can decide how you want to play it.

However..

I have a couple of teenage lads who turn up at local shows to help one or two of us and are part of a junior section of another club. (I am not in a model railway club as such)

I know the parents and only communicate via email with one of them and I'm happy with that as an informal arrangement. I would never be in a situation where I would be on my own with one or more children or communicate with them other than face to face.

 

Having said that I have made clear to Mum I am aware of safeguarding issues and good practice and have a current enhanced DBS check from my sports activities

 

I also left a group because I felt it was an inappropriate environment for young relatives brought along by members due to the inappropriate behaviour and language in close proximity to the kids and the people in charge would not address it.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6509558022a783000d43e81f/After-school_clubs__community_activities_and_tuition_safeguarding_guidance_for_providers.pdf

 

 

 

Chris H

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Just checked with my wife (because of her education and scouts experience), and was pointed at this.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/criminal-record-checks-for-childminders-and-childcare-workers

 

It's similar to what @Gilbert just said, a "criminal DBS check" might sound scary or offputting, but then you have good evidence that you have done your due diligence.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Our club looked into it and the rules were stipulated as below. 
 

[Jack]

If a minor is accompanied at all times by a parent/guardian that is fine.

 

Unaccompanied minors attending the club is a whole different kettle of fish!

 

Best practice is to have two DBS* checked adults present when the minor attends. Furthermore, there are various online Safeguarding courses available which those supervising should have done (the basic ones aren't that onurous).

 

It is also best practise to have a safeguarding lead for the club who keeps a record of who is in date for DBS and training. Their contact details should be clearly displayed in the club premises, and they should be conversant with the councils safeguarding rules, and have contact with the council team.

 

*DBS checks are only relevant to the organisation which has run them, although the new digital passport makes this easier. It doesn't matter if the Bavarian Tiddly-Winks Club down the road has run a check on you, that is irrelevant to the Model Railway Club. 

 

I currently have 4 DBS certificates and have to undertake 3 different safeguarding courses annually for my day job. Is it a pita? Yes! Is it extremely important? Also yes!!!

 

The easiest solution is to state that under 18s need to be accompanied by a parent/guardian.

[Jack]

Oh, and as Chris H said, all comms, especially digital, should go via the parent/guardian.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Nothing scary about getting an enhanced DBS. Think I had four on the go at one time... 

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Nothing scary about getting an enhanced DBS. Think I had four on the go at one time... 

 

Pretty much. I've had numerous checks depending on role. Currently manager of a charity shop although I don't really have much interaction with any of our volunteer youngsters as they mostly come in during the weekend. I'm mostly in early to mid day, with occasional afternoons when they're at school!

 

Also worth bearing in mind that it's also not just age related. Safeguarding to use the proper term includes vulnerable adults as well.

 

So it's probably a good idea to have a basic safeguarding policy anyway. Maybe ask in your local CAB as they'll probably have the information in an easy to read booklet.

 

Some details here from the NSPCC

 

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/safeguarding-child-protection/writing-a-safeguarding-policy-statement#:~:text=Safeguarding and child protection procedures are detailed guidelines and instructions,a child's safety or wellbeing.

 

 

Jason

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Good point, Jason, about not just being about children. 

[kevinlms]

Another thing to consider, is there really a suitable contact person?

 

Historically, I've given my wife as my contact person if something goes wrong, for wherever I am. However, she is unwell now and she often does not answer her mobile or check her messages, sometimes for most of the day.

So it's coming to the point, where I need to give my emergency contact to someone else, otherwise things might go wrong.

 

It's not a great feeling, I can tell you, when you can't rely on someone through no fault of their own.

[Gilbert]

48 minutes ago, Jack said:

 

It is also best practise to have a safeguarding lead for the club who keeps a record of who is in date for DBS and training

and this person should not be in an active contact role with the junior section so they are "one-step removed" - in a sports club for example it can't be a  coach who works with the juniors.

 

Sadly another issue which arises is that a "junior"will decide they trust you and tell you something (possiby from home or school) that needs acting upon so its not just about your behaviour its about having at least an insight into good practice and processes more widely

Chris H

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

I also left a group because I felt it was an inappropriate environment for young relatives brought along by members due to the inappropriate behaviour and language in close proximity to the kids and the people in charge would not address it.

This aspect is part of the whole picture of an adult group; and there can be known and unknown factors. One of the first potentially uncomfortable questions that has to be checked with all the members - prior to embarking on the move proposed - is whether they will accept the necessity for whatever relevant DBS check is required, and support it; being clear that this may well require changes in behaviour.

 

And also check your club's insurance terms, and make sure that all members are aware.

[woodenhead]

A few more links related to charities, clubs etc that might help

 

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/safeguarding-child-protection/writing-a-safeguarding-policy-statement

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/safeguarding-duties-for-charity-trustees

 

https://www.ncvo.org.uk/help-and-guidance/safeguarding/getting-started-with-safeguarding/law-rules-duties/

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in-out-of-school-settings-code-of-practice

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Safeguarding is always the "biggie". From my days working in schools, if you didn't get safeguarding right (with the evidence/procedures to back it up), Ofsted would be down on you like a ton of bricks. Never mind the curriculum; safeguarding trumped them all - as we saw with the truly tragic death of a Head last year.

But back to clubs. 
1. Have a designated safeguarding lead (plus a deputy if the other is unavoidable). Make sure they know what to do if something crops up. Make sure you have a workable policy - not just a box-ticking one. Some good links from Woodenhead, above.

2. Make sure everyone understands what's expected of them and they know who the safeguarding lead/deputy is - basically, you can't turn a blind eye and have to be proactive.

3. Instill a culture that safeguarding is everyone's responsibility.

If members don't like it, then the club either needs to reconsider their stance on having youngsters at all, or wave goodbye to dinosaur members who object to any perceived slight on their behaviour.

[JeremyC]

2 hours ago, Jack said:

.......

 

*DBS checks are only relevant to the organisation which has run them, although the new digital passport makes this easier. It doesn't matter if the Bavarian Tiddly-Winks Club down the road has run a check on you, that is irrelevant to the Model Railway Club. 

.......

Another point DBS checks done in England and Wales are not valid in Scotland or Northern Ireland and Vice Versa.

Edited June 26 by JeremyC

[Michael Hodgson]

I had to have a DBS check to host a Ukrainian under the Government scheme, no big deal and I can't remember who paid for it, but presumably I could have been turned down if I had unspent convictions.

 

 

DBS checks are only valid on the day they're done, which raises the question of how often you re-check.

 

Then of course there's the question of who pays for it.  Are your members prepared to pay the cost themselves/increase annual subs to cover it?  Putting up the price of membership is always a touchy subject for the committees of clubs.

 

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Then of course there's the question of who pays for it.  Are your members prepared to pay the cost themselves/increase annual subs to cover it?  Putting up the price of membership is always a touchy subject for the committees of clubs.

 

TBH I have been so gobsmacked by all the info that I haven't read any of it yet - I am completely overwhelmed by it all.  Can I ask some very basic questions?

 

I think I may have given slightly the wrong impression initially.

 

I think that the idea is to attract a family that includes children rather than independent children i.e. the parent would always be 'on site'

 

 

So, can the whole DBS issue be ignored if the child only attends with his parent?

 

If so, is that age limit 'under 18' ?

Edited June 26 by TEAMYAKIMA

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Our club looked into it and the rules were stipulated as below. 
 

The key thing here is that you are (most likely) an 'Unincorporated association'. Which means that the club has no separate legal identify and the members are jointly liable for any contracts or debts incurred when you book the Leisure centre for the annual show, nobody turns up, and you make a massive loss.

 

Under 18s can't legally be party to this, and so need to be some kind of 'not quite' member not involved in any decision making, contract signing and so on. 

 

4 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Safeguarding is always the "biggie". From my days working in schools, if you didn't get safeguarding right (with the evidence/procedures to back it up), Ofsted would be down on you like a ton of bricks.

 

What I would add to this (very good) explanation is that you can't avoid the need for a safeguarding policy by having the parent/guardian present all the times. One of the issues with safeguarding is that the children will, over time, come to trust the Adult members and might confide stuff in them. Which may be about the parent's behaviour. So you need to have a mechanism for passing that on to the correct authorities. 

 

 

[woodenhead]

21 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

What I would add to this (very good) explanation is that you can't avoid the need for a safeguarding policy by having the parent/guardian present all the times. One of the issues with safeguarding is that the children will, over time, come to trust the Adult members and might confide stuff in them. Which may be about the parent's behaviour. So you need to have a mechanism for passing that on to the correct authorities. 

 

 

This is a key point I believe, if you have young or vulnerable people around you even with parent / guardians you need to have policies in place for that remind other members how to behave and also what to do if they become to suspect something might be amiss.

 

Having a parent / guardian present doesn't absolve of responsibility it just lessens it.

[Mallard60022]

Have a Word with Social Services.

Phil

[PMP]

16 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

 

I think that the idea is to attract a family that includes children rather than independent children i.e. the parent would always be 'on site'

 

 

So, can the whole DBS issue be ignored if the child only attends with his parent?

 

If so, is that age limit 'under 18' ?

Based on my experience as a parent with sports related hobbies.
Realistically will you get a guardian that every week is going to attend with their child? If you’re aiming for that, you had better assume that most of those guardians will not be interested in the hobby, they will be ‘Dads Cabs’ in one form or another. So is there somewhere for them to sit and relax out of the way? Even if I took my children to a club, on joining there were forms to fill, and whom to contact if the guardian or child had a concern ( of any nature). 
What this meant was than when junior was sporting, the parents could go to do some shopping etc leaving the children in a ‘safe environment’. The club also had seating for guardians, but as it was popular not enough for everyone.

 

The simple thing is to do it right, even though that means a level of responsibility and administration the club doesn’t have. You need to look at the message not having that sends. Mr Bloggs is surprised you expect him to stay because your club doesn’t want the responsibility of safeguarding. He wonders why? He assumed you’d be like all the other clubs he has to drop the sprog off at. If his child has various interests that could be another 3/4 per week, I used to do cab run 3 per week. So your club immediately stands out as ‘not looking after’ his child’s best interests. Mr Bloggs mentions this at the pub, on local social meejah, that ACME train club doesn’t have safeguards. That stands out because the other clubs his child, and everyone else’s goes to all have safeguards. Any sensible parent would wonder why ACME are the odd one out. It really doesn’t show the club or hobby in a good light, it potentially puts red flags out where there is absolutely no need.

 

 

 

Edited June 27 by PMP

[Phil Parker]

The Young MRC requires a parent to accompany each child, and take part in the activities. It's quite a sight to see the tables full of people modelling - child, adult, child, adult etc.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Just now, Phil Parker said:

The Young MRC requires a parent to accompany each child, and take part in the activities. It's quite a sight to see the tables full of people modelling - child, adult, child, adult etc.

 

Yes, I think that is what are looking for.  Young adults who actively take part in the hobby alongside their children. You might almost say that it's the young adult member we are trying to attract and for them to come down they want to bring their child (who shares the same interest) with them.

[PMP]

3 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Yes, I think that is what are looking for.  Young adults who actively take part in the hobby alongside their children. You might almost say that it's the young adult member we are trying to attract and for them to come down they want to bring their child (who shares the same interest) with them.

So (mathematically), you need to work out how to attract the mid to late twenties and early thirties parents of both genders to your club, and bring their children with them. That’s your core market.