A question of wagons, when and where were they found?

[br-nse-fan]

Hello Group

 

Firstly, many thanks for helping narrow down my choices of locomotives in my previous thread.  I was able to choose 32 locomotives out of the 270 I had available to pick from.  I can provide a list/update if anyone is interested... but that's not the point of this post.

 

I've decided to model three different era's.  Not all at the same time, but have the stock and choices to swap out when the mood arises.

 

- Late 40's, post WW2, Big 4, pre BR.

- Late 60's, BR, end of steam.

- Late 80's, BR Blue/NSE, etc

 

I made these choices as I already have a substantial amount of GWR and Mid/late 80's BR, so with the late 60's/end of Steam, I have three different era's with apx 20yrs between each of them, covering a 60yr span.

 

As with the locomotives, I have a large selection of stock to pick from, apx 700 wagons.  I tried to use the Hatton's directory, but I couldn't get all the answers I needed.  Appreciate the help in advance!  If there's an online resource available, I'm more than happy to review there as well.  Books are near impossible to get in Canada, so while I appreciate the suggestions to look up certain titles, the reality is that they are not a viable option.

 

Wagons seen in the Big 4 era:

 

This is obviously stock that has GW, SR, NE, LMS.. etc.. on the sides of the wagons, along with most private owner wagons, but I do have some questions about specific items.

 

The big 4 had their typical colors GW Grey, SR Brown, etc.. but there are also some like the LNER that had both a Grey as well as a brown similar (same?) to BR Bauxite.  I know in BR days, grey indicated unfitted and the brown indicated fitted for air brakes, is this the same as for the LMS, or were their other reasons for the different colors on wagons? 

 

I know there were variations in liveries, depending on when the wagon was running around, is there an easy one stop shop to see what liveries of the big 4 were in use on company wagons post WW2?

 

Dapol makes the 12t SR vent van that has also been seen in various other liveries, GW, LMS, etc.. is this accurate or just a way for Dapol to sell more wagons?   SR example below.  I've seen these as shown, as well as with SR and other companies in small print, lower left corner.

 

 

As a general rule of thumb, what percentage of wagons would be private owner, and what would be company owned (GW, SR, etc)?

When creating a train, would there be a mix of company and private, or would they be hauled in different rakes?

 

I'm assuming these would be suitable for big 4, post WW2... whereas this is a BR era wagon, given the P number?

 

What tank wagons would have been seen in the late 40's?  The 14t variety that Bachmann makes (37-658)?  The bulkier looking ones that Mainline/Replica have made (13801)?  Would the Shell/Esso/BP tanks (37-666) have been seen in this era? Hattons has them listed in the BR Early/Late era.

 

Late BR:

 

I'm assuming little to no private owner wagons would still be in use, including this one, as above?

What about the non-pool wagons, would these also now be gone?

I know with Bachmann, some of their open wagons have detailed floors, depicting either wood or steel.  Is there anything that would have been around for the early BR era, hence in a BR livery, that would not have survived to the late BR era?  While I realize this likely a complicated question and there are always exceptions, I'm more just looking for blanket examples such as "no 3, 4, 5 plank wagons would be around"

How late would the 6-wheel milk tankers have been in service, what liveries/companies most likely, if any?

I have these in the collection, both Lima   Tanker 1    Tanker 2

 

When were the non-TOPS data panels introduced, I assume that's what this is?

 

 

These have always made me curious, as earlier stock does not have them, and they are not TOPS.

 

i know this was a large post with a lot of asks..  and once again, if there's an online resource that would be better suited to answering these questions, I am all for doing my own research.

 

Many thanks again!

[woodyfox]

Don't get too hung up on wagons in the correct livery at a specific point. Once a change of livery or modification had been decided, most transitions took a decade or more with alterations only occurring once a wagon was withdrawn from traffic for routine maintenance or significant repair. Likewise the same livery varied in tone - bauxite (as an example) appears to have had several shades. Weathering and wear had a major effect on paint finishes too. 

The only caveat would be where a safety issue had arisen. 

Edited Monday at 18:23 by woodyfox
Spelingg

[br-nse-fan]

3 minutes ago, woodyfox said:

Don't get too hung up on wagons in the correct livery at a specific point. Once a change of livery or modificatiin had been decided, most transitions took a decade or more with alterations only occurring once a wagon was withdrawn from traffic for routine maintenance or significant repair. Likewise the same livery varied in tone - bauxite (as an example) appears to have had several shades. Weathering and wear had a major effect on paint finishes too. 

 

 

I'm trying to be far pickier than I need to be. I can not realistically keep 700+ wagons, so I am trying to be as narrow as possible.  Yes, I realize there may be some slight discrepancies.. different shades of Bauxite, Light & Dark GW Grey, etc..  but I am actually looking for excuses not to keep a significant amount of wagons.. lol

[melmerby]

19 minutes ago, br-nse-fan said:

Dapol makes the 12t SR vent van that has also been seen in various other liveries, GW, LMS, etc.. is this accurate or just a way for Dapol to sell more wagons?   SR example below.  I've seen these as shown, as well as with SR and other companies in small print, lower left corner.

The Southern 2+2 Planked van was also supplied to the GWR as their V35 ventilated van (the SR domed roof gives it away), possibly also some for the LMS.

Bachmann do them in SR, GWR, LMS & BR.

 

 

[br-nse-fan]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

The Southern 2+2 Planked van was also supplied to the GWR as their V35 ventilated van (the SR domed roof gives it away), possibly also some for the LMS.

Bachmann do them in SR, GWR, LMS & BR.

 

 

Thank you!  Glad to know these were real and not fictitious. 

[Karhedron]

51 minutes ago, br-nse-fan said:

How late would the 6-wheel milk tankers have been in service, what liveries/companies most likely, if any?

I have these in the collection, both Lima   Tanker 1    Tanker 2

 

6 wheeled milk tankers were withdrawn from service in 1980. Most of the colourful liveries (like the CWS green) are pre-nationalisation. By the 1960s, the most common colour was dull silver. The White United Dairies livery was from the 1950s although milk tanks were not frequently repainted so probably lasted quite a while.  There are a few colourful diesel era liveries such as the white and orange St Ivel colour scheme that was quite common in the 70s.

[The Johnster]

Don't forget that several thousand vans and wagons were built by BR after nationalisation to complete orders placed in the late big 4 era, so many late design big 4 wagons never carried the designing company's livery.  OTOH, with a backlog of overhauls delaying repaints for at least a decade after the war, it was common to see wagons in big 4 liveries up to about 1955, and some for longer than that.  These would mostly be with the 'small initials' versions of the big 4 liveries, though, which I think (though I'm happy to be proven wrong) was an RCH initiative dating to 1938.

 

For the first 6 months of BR's existence, stock was painted in the previous owning company's livery but without initials.  Lettering and numbering was in the previous company's style but the company was indicated by the BR prefix letter.  Bachmann do some of these 'transition' liveries.

 

Be careful of some Dapol and Hornby items that use generic models in various unsuitable liveries.  The Southern 2+2 van is fine, thousands were built during the war under the directive of the wartime Ministry of Supply for all of the big 4 companies, because Ashford works had a large stock of pre-cut timber that was of little use for anything else; timber being a stategically important resource.  Also worth mentioning that Dapol and Hornby 16ton and 7-plank minerals use those companies' generic scale 10' wheelbase chassis with body panels 'stretched' to fit; these wagons should have scale 9' wheelbase chassis.  Avoid Dapol and Hornby for minerals.

[br-nse-fan]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

it was common to see wagons in big 4 liveries up to about 1955, and some for longer than that.  These would mostly be with the 'small initials' versions of the big 4 liveries

 

Ok, so correct me if I am wrong, but the small initials livery would be the "post war" livery for the big four?  Obviously there would be others running around still, but for a pre-transition era layout, these would be the most "appropriate"?
 

27 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Also worth mentioning that Dapol and Hornby 16ton and 7-plank minerals use those companies' generic scale 10' wheelbase chassis with body panels 'stretched' to fit; these wagons should have scale 9' wheelbase chassis.  Avoid Dapol and Hornby for minerals.

So Dapol and Hornby 16t steel mineral wagons (like the Mainline one above) and 7-plank wagons are a no-go.  This is good!  Helps to reduce the choices.

How about Mainline, Airfix and Replica 7 plank wagons?  I would assume any of the new stuff from Rapido, EFE and Oxford(?) would be more accurate choices for these wagons?

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

The big 4 had their typical colors GW Grey, SR Brown, etc.. but there are also some like the LNER that had both a Grey as well as a brown similar (same?) to BR Bauxite.  I know in BR days, grey indicated unfitted and the brown indicated fitted for air brakes, is this the same as for the LMS, or were their other reasons for the different colors on wagons? 

 

 

No. It was just a livery change. In the Big Four era there was no distinction between fitted and non fitted stock by colour. EDIT: Seems the LNER did differentiate between them.

 

It was 1936 they started painting them bauxite ISTR. I think it was because of a shortage of grey paint as they needed it to paint ships due to a surge in shipbuilding in the run up to WWII. Smaller lettering came in about the same time which was an economy measure as paint became expensive due to demand from other sources.

 

There was also the economy livery of unpainted wood and just the metal parts painted. Mostly open wagons.

 

This Southern wagon is in that livery. SR brown but only on the metal bits.

 

 

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/12058.html

 

 

Jason

Edited Monday at 21:04 by Steamport Southport

[br-nse-fan]

8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

There was also the economy livery of unpainted wood and just the metal parts painted. Mostly open wagons.

 

Well now, that is something new.. I don't believe I've ever seen one like that before!

 

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It was 1936 they started painting them bauxite ISTR. I think it was because of a shortage of grey paint as they needed it to paint ships due to a surge in shipbuilding in the run up to WWII. Smaller lettering came in about the same time which was an economy measure as paint became expensive due to demand from other sources.

 

OK, this helps narrow down my choices even more!  Brown/Bauxite for SR, LMS, LNER and Grey for GW...  a smattering of Grey for the first three, mostly small lettering with a smattering of large left over from before the war..    this helps!

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

The big 4 had their typical colors GW Grey, SR Brown, etc.. but there are also some like the LNER that had both a Grey as well as a brown similar (same?) to BR Bauxite.  I know in BR days, grey indicated unfitted and the brown indicated fitted for air brakes, is this the same as for the LMS, or were their other reasons for the different colors on wagons? 

GW dark grey and SR brown were the same from the grouping [earlier for the GWR]. LMS switched from grey to bauxite in 1936, a little after they changed to small letters, for all stock. LNER used grey for unfitted stock, with red oxide for vacuum fitted stock and all brake vans from the grouping. None of them used air brakes, and any inherited AB vehicles would have been withdrawn or converted to VB before WW2. The Johnster was very slightly out for the 'small letter' liveries, which were introduced during 1936. Note that the war had a considerable adverse impact on the railways' maintenance programme, so that many wagons were well overdue for repaint by the end of WW2. Wartime and later new builds, into the early 1950s, commonly only had the metalwork painted, apart from patches on which to paint the number, tare, etc., usually in their standard colour, while PO wagons often had owners and wagon details painted on in small letters in the bottom corners because so much of the original paint was missing. BR followed LNER practice except that unfitted brake vans were grey. All of them painted insulated and refrigerated vans white.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Also if GWR then only the dark ones are correct with some slight fading to a medium grey after a few years. The GWR never had light grey wagons and any models (or even preserved ones) painted as such are wrong!

 

I'm afraid some older models and Dapol can fall into that trap. This is far too light IMHO.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/Dapol-4f-071-178-7-plank-gwr-06545

 

Brief rundown on GWR wagon livery.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagongrey.html

 

 

Jason

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

I'm assuming little to no private owner wagons would still be in use, including this one, as above?

Virtually all stock was pooled during WW2 and after, but there were exceptions for certain privately owned specialist wagons, notably oil tanks but there were others, which was extended somewhat by BR, so there were always PO wagons on BR, but the numbers and types changed over time.

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

What about the non-pool wagons, would these also now be gone?

See above; non-pooled PO wagons were so marked, and such markings continued into the BR period.

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

When were the non-TOPS data panels introduced, I assume that's what this is?

Circa 1963, and yes.

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

GW dark grey and SR brown were the same from the grouping [earlier for the GWR]. LMS switched from grey to bauxite in 1936, a little after they changed to small letters, for all stock. LNER used grey for unfitted stock, with red oxide for vacuum fitted stock and all brake vans from the grouping. None of them used air brakes, and any inherited AB vehicles would have been withdrawn or converted to VB before WW2. The Johnster was very slightly out for the 'small letter' liveries, which were introduced during 1936. Note that the war had a considerable adverse impact on the railways' maintenance programme, so that many wagons were well overdue for repaint by the end of WW2. Wartime and later new builds, into the early 1950s, commonly only had the metalwork painted, apart from patches on which to paint the number, tare, etc., usually in their standard colour, while PO wagons often had owners and wagon details painted on in small letters in the bottom corners because so much of the original paint was missing. BR followed LNER practice except that unfitted brake vans were grey. All of them painted insulated and refrigerated vans white.

 

 

I forgot the LNER did paint them along the same lines as BR did.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

50 minutes ago, br-nse-fan said:

How about Mainline, Airfix and Replica 7 plank wagons?  I would assume any of the new stuff from Rapido, EFE and Oxford(?) would be more accurate choices for these wagons?

 

Yes. Although do check the Rapido wagons for buffers. Most of mine either had them poking out at strange angles, loose in the box or in a couple of cases were missing!

 

Also avoid the Oxford LNER Cattle Wagon as it has errors. They modelled the two sides as being the same when they should be a mirror image. The rest of the Oxford wagons are fine ISTR.

 

 

Jason

Edited Monday at 21:20 by Steamport Southport

[Rivercider]

3 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

 

 

I'm trying to be far pickier than I need to be. I can not realistically keep 700+ wagons, so I am trying to be as narrow as possible.  Yes, I realize there may be some slight discrepancies.. different shades of Bauxite, Light & Dark GW Grey, etc..  but I am actually looking for excuses not to keep a significant amount of wagons.. lol

I will confine my suggestions to the mid/late 1980s question.

I believe you are looking at  a Western Region/Southern Region/NSE area?

 

If you are looking for reasons not to keep wagons then you probably want to let go of unfitted wagons with TOPS codes. The Southern Region for example had effectively become a fully fitted railway in the late 1970s, so freight trains were composed either fully vacuum fitted, or fully air braked (there might be a few piped only vehicles within the formation). The Western Region had started to become a fully fitted railway in the early 1980s starting with Devon and Cornwall, though unfitted wagons remained common in South Wales on certain traffic flows into the late 1980s.

In the late 1980s the freight stock more likely to be seen in that area would be fitted 16t mins (MCV/MXV), vanfits (VVV/VEV), presflos (CPV), 21t hops (HTV). Air braked stock on Speedlink included vans VAA/VBA/VCA/VDA/VEA/VGA opens OAA/OBA/OCA steel BDA. Also HAA/HBA/HEA coal hoppers. Private owned tanks (TTA) and aggregate trains (PGA) cement (PCA). Freightliners FFA/FGA. Clay traffic in a variety of tanks and hoppers. Also engineers trains dogfish (ZFV), mermaids (ZKV), tipplers (MSV), sealions/seacows (YGH/YGB), shark ploughs (ZUV//ZUA),

 

cheers

Edited Monday at 22:10 by Rivercider
Additional info

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

As a general rule of thumb, what percentage of wagons would be private owner, and what would be company owned (GW, SR, etc)?

Allow roughly 50:50 of PO and company owned. The PO mineral wagons from the outbreak of WWII were used indiscriminately, no need to have 'the right wagons for the location', that had finished. Now the shocker: the company owned should be dominated by LMS and LNER stock, which was 80% of the company owned wagon fleet. All the common user wagons - which were the most nymerous types of company owned wagons -  were freely mixed in the interests of efficiency. 

[br-nse-fan]

20 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

If you are looking for reasons not to keep wagons then you probably want to let go of unfitted wagons with TOPS codes. The Southern Region for example had effectively become a fully fitted railway in the late 1970s, so freight trains were composed either fully vacuum fitted, or fully air braked (there might be a few piped only vehicles within the formation). The Western Region had started to become a fully fitted railway in the early 1980s starting with Devon and Cornwall, though unfitted wagons remained common in South Wales on certain traffic flows into the late 1980s.

 

So in a nutshell, nothing BR Grey... everything should be Bauxite or Railfreight Red & Grey?   I think I only have a handful of BR Grey, so the impact would be minimal.
For engineering, I have a mix of (late 70's?) Olive Green and the newer Yellow & Grey 'Dutch' liveried stock.

[br-nse-fan]

22 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Now the shocker: the company owned should be dominated by LMS and LNER stock, which was 80% of the company owned wagon fleet.

 

Wow.. I am shocked!   If I am going to be even moderatly accurate, and I am using that term loosely.. lol..  for every 10 company wagons, there'd only be on average 1 GWR and 1 SR?  lol   

 

I would assume that as I am mostly modeling the Western Region/GWR with a siding of SR,  with the LMS/LNER being interregional visitors, the ratio would be a little different?

Edited Monday at 22:37 by br-nse-fan

[Rivercider]

11 minutes ago, br-nse-fan said:

 

So in a nutshell, nothing BR Grey... everything should be Bauxite or Railfreight Red & Grey?   I think I only have a handful of BR Grey, so the impact would be minimal.
For engineering, I have a mix of (late 70's?) Olive Green and the newer Yellow & Grey 'Dutch' liveried stock.

I worked on the Western Region, so my knowledge for that area is better. Yes by the mid/late 1980s unfitted freight stock in grey would be rare in many areas. The coal traffic to Swansea Docks was still in grey unfitted 21t  mins (MDO) for a rare example.

 

Here is a view of Severn Tunnel Junction in 1986. See the line of air braked vans in the yard. The scrap train is 21t minfits (MDV)

 

 

 

 

Yes you can mix olive green and dutch engineers stock. Here is a ballast train in 1986

 

 

Here is a Eastleigh to Severn Tunnel Speedlink in 1986, with typical formation.

 

If you click on the photos it will take you to my Flickr album.

 

To get more idea of wagon types try a Flickr search for 'Speedlink 1986' for example, that will give you an idea of the type of mix of traffic. Or try headcodes like 6B39 or 6C39 for the Speedlink trains to/from St Blazey in Cornwall.

 

cheers

[br-nse-fan]

19 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

If you click on the photos it will take you to my Flickr album.

Amazing!  I've book marked this for future reference!  Thank you!

[br-nse-fan]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Brief rundown on GWR wagon livery.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagongrey.html

 

 

This is great!  I don't see anything for the Macaw or Crocodile though..  I'm guessing that due to the lack of space, the lettering would be small regardless of era.

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, br-nse-fan said:

I would assume that as I am mostly modelling the Western Region/GWR with a siding of SR,  with the LMS/LNER being interregional visitors, the ratio would be a little different?

 

No.  The pooling of the most common types of wagons stated in 1915 when the GN, GC and GE started sharing unfitted open wagons with three or more planks.  Pooling was gradually expanded until by 1917 it included unfitted open wagons from every company in Great Britain and by 1919 it included unfitted covered goods wagons as well.  Further wagon types were added over time.  What it meant in practise was that any depot could use any wagon as though it were their own, so the Southern could use a LMS wagon for goods sent to the GWR.  The need to return wagons back to their home territory had largely ceased by Grouping in 1923, so by your post WW2 time period the fleet of wagons would have been well and truly mixed up across the network, with the largest number of wagons on the Southern being marked LMS.  I think the proportions are roughly LMS - 8, LNER - 7, GWR - 2, SR - 1.  However, if you are building a real backwater, then I suspect there were still a few extra home company wagons in the mix that just shuttled up and down the branch.