New North-South Wales Proposal

[Andy Kirkham]

Reported on the Isengard Welsh Highland site http://www.isengard.co.uk/

 

New TRAWS route proposed

A new route for the proposed TRAWS North Wales-South Wales rail service has been proposed which involves less new construction and may garner more political support that existing plans via Aberystwyth. The proposers are taking advantage of the focus on Welsh politics caused by the General Election to gather support for the scheme. Instead of reopening Aberystwyth-Carmarthen with its expensive new tunnel exit from Aberystwyth, the route uses a section of the Cambrian east from Machynlleth to join the Mid Wales railway from the former Moat Lane Junction near Caersws to a junction on Shrewsbury-Swansea Central Wales Line at Builth Road which is then followed to Swansea.

The section to be restored between Moat Lane Junction and Builth Road Junction is much shorter than Aberystwyth-Carmarthen and also less developed. It also avoids reversals at both Machynlleth and Aberystwyth. Reinstated loops might be required at Caemmaes Road, Llanbrynmair and Caersws with a new curve onto the Mid Wales at the site of Moat Lane depot near Caersws. The Mid Wales route through Llanidloes would be reclaimed from the current A470 bypass and the A470 rerouted around the east of the town via a new bypass. South of here the trackbed is largely clear via a summit of over 1000 feet at Pant-y-dwr before the route enters the Wye Valley. Rhayader comes next and then there is junction with the existing Central Wales Line just south of the existing Builth Road station where a new station would be required. There is an opportunity to construct a deviation of about 10km between Rhayader and Llandrindod Wells to serve one of the few centres of population in this area but it would require a short tunnel around the north of Rhayader. Additional loops might be required on the Central Wales between Builth Road and Llanelli depending on the frequency of service..

The proposers must be hoping that candidates for Montgomeryshire and Brecon & Radnorshire might campaign to reopen the rail route to reconnect a North-South rail route within Wales. Both of these seats were held until recently by Liberal Democrats who will be campaigning hard to reclaim them from the Tories.

 

The prospect of trains running once again through Tylwch, Pant-y-Dwr and St Harmon is very appealing, but I feel this is really just another pipe dream.

[Kris]

I wonder where they are hoping the money will come from to build a new railway and a new road. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

48 minutes ago, Kris said:

I wonder where they are hoping the money will come from to build a new railway and a new road. 

 

The EU, oh, wait,,,,,

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Reported on the Isengard Welsh Highland site http://www.isengard.co.uk/

 

New TRAWS route proposed

A new route for the proposed TRAWS North Wales-South Wales rail service has been proposed which involves less new construction and may garner more political support that existing plans via Aberystwyth. The proposers are taking advantage of the focus on Welsh politics caused by the General Election to gather support for the scheme. Instead of reopening Aberystwyth-Carmarthen with its expensive new tunnel exit from Aberystwyth, the route uses a section of the Cambrian east from Machynlleth to join the Mid Wales railway from the former Moat Lane Junction near Caersws to a junction on Shrewsbury-Swansea Central Wales Line at Builth Road which is then followed to Swansea.

The section to be restored between Moat Lane Junction and Builth Road Junction is much shorter than Aberystwyth-Carmarthen and also less developed. It also avoids reversals at both Machynlleth and Aberystwyth. Reinstated loops might be required at Caemmaes Road, Llanbrynmair and Caersws with a new curve onto the Mid Wales at the site of Moat Lane depot near Caersws. The Mid Wales route through Llanidloes would be reclaimed from the current A470 bypass and the A470 rerouted around the east of the town via a new bypass. South of here the trackbed is largely clear via a summit of over 1000 feet at Pant-y-dwr before the route enters the Wye Valley. Rhayader comes next and then there is junction with the existing Central Wales Line just south of the existing Builth Road station where a new station would be required. There is an opportunity to construct a deviation of about 10km between Rhayader and Llandrindod Wells to serve one of the few centres of population in this area but it would require a short tunnel around the north of Rhayader. Additional loops might be required on the Central Wales between Builth Road and Llanelli depending on the frequency of service..

The proposers must be hoping that candidates for Montgomeryshire and Brecon & Radnorshire might campaign to reopen the rail route to reconnect a North-South rail route within Wales. Both of these seats were held until recently by Liberal Democrats who will be campaigning hard to reclaim them from the Tories.

 

The prospect of trains running once again through Tylwch, Pant-y-Dwr and St Harmon is very appealing, but I feel this is really just another pipe dream.

So, geographically speaking, that  would better connect Mid Wales to South Wales plus the bit of North Wales served by the coastal route to Pwllheli. Presumably  most of North Wales will have to remains satisfied with a rail link through bits of England (should its residents actually want to acknowledge the existence of South Wales)?

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So, geographically speaking, that  would better connect Mid Wales to South Wales plus the bit of North Wales served by the coastal route to Pwllheli. Presumably  most of North Wales will have to remains satisfied with a rail link through bits of England (should its residents actually want to acknowledge the existence of South Wales)?

 

As I rather enjoy my TFW jaunts through and around Shrewsbury I don't have a particular axe to grind, but where is there a place, all the year round, in Wales which would benefit from a reasonable amount of investment to provide a decent service to somewhere/anywhere, only Oswestry I would contend?

 

Mike.

[KeithHC]

26 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

As I rather enjoy my TFW jaunts through and around Shrewsbury I don't have a particular axe to grind, but where is there a place, all the year round, in Wales which would benefit from a reasonable amount of investment to provide a decent service to somewhere/anywhere, only Oswestry I would contend?

 

Mike.

Pedant mode. Oswestry is in England.

 

Keith

ps getting my hat and coat

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, KeithHC said:

Pedant mode. Oswestry is in England.

 

Keith

ps getting my hat and coat

 

OK, so I didn't word it very well, but I see your point!!

 

Mike.

[Mol_PMB]

2 hours ago, KeithHC said:

Pedant mode. Oswestry is in England.

 

Keith

ps getting my hat and coat

So far East that the LNER nearly got there (They did get into Wales at Gwersyllt just a little further north)

 

Caernarfon is another fair-sized Welsh town not main line rail-connected, but with 3 or 4 buses an hour to Bangor railway station I suspect any reopened branch line would provide a less effective connection. 
 

It’s all about where people need to get to and from. Not many people travel from north to south Wales or vice versa, and even fewer by public transport because both rail and road routes are so slow. Yes, I have travelled regularly on the TrawsCymru T2 and the Cambrian line, and I’m glad they exist, but they’re slooooow!

[Jeremy Cumberland]

They're mad. Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is too expensive so we'll go from Builth Road to Caersws instead.

 

In my mind I imagine a Venn diagram with a moderately sized circle of people who might want to travel from South Wales to Mid and North Wales, Included in this is a tiny circle for whom a railway line from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth would meet their needs. Next to this is probably an even tinier circle for whom Builth Road to Caersws would be a useful route. I wonder how big the small slither of overlap between the two is.

[black and decker boy]

Rail infrastructure in Wales, with the exception of Core Valley lines is not a devolved mater and is funded from Westminster.

 

Welsh Government typically seem to have little money available for infrastructure investment once they’ve paid for education, health & social care. 
 

I can’t see any Welsh Government committing to finding something outside their devolved powers especially when any business case will be hugely negative.

 

new railway lines in rural parts (with consequential new road bypasses) to run an hourly 153 (as can’t see any greater demand than that) just won’t add up 

[Ian Hargrave]

20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So, geographically speaking, that  would better connect Mid Wales to South Wales plus the bit of North Wales served by the coastal route to Pwllheli. Presumably  most of North Wales will have to remains satisfied with a rail link through bits of England (should its residents actually want to acknowledge the existence of South Wales)?

This was ever the case,Mike. North Wales looks towards Liverpool & Manchester…..think back to the Llandudno-Manchester Club Trains of a century ago.The trend continues today.A large section of the community has its roots over the border and Cardiff is another country away in any case for the indigenous & Welsh speaking population ..Though much has been achieved in the last 50 years in the revival of the Welsh language all over the country.

The Holyhead-Cardiff service was seen as a largely political act on the part of the WAG.

       Think of Wales as as sandwich.The top slice is the N Wales coastal A 55 corridor. The bottom slice is the M4 corridor. Both look towards the east ..to the Dee and the Severn. And the filling? Very lovely indeed but apart from the odd centres of population very little indeed apart from Red Kiits & sheep.( Pause here for disclaimers…this is a Valleys boy  talking ,so apologies for offence if caused)

 

And going from North to South ? Even the Romans found it difficult. Sarn Helen still exists on maps and in the odd  traceable parts  But the A 470 is the one driveable link. Get out of that one alive if you can

 A rail link ?  Where? At one time it was possible to travel by through train from the Rhondda to Aberystwyth .It took forever. 

 

 

 

 

[2251]

While the romantic part of me would be delighted to see this happen, the rational part says the various proposals for re-opening south-north routes, including this, cannot be serious proposals for at least the following reasons.

1. All the closed routes followed, due to the geography and building history, tortuous and slow routes. Any re-opened route will, without massive and expensive earthworks, be painfully slow.
2. There is precious little demand – because the population density is so low – for travel in the whole of mid-Wales. Improving travel either within mid-Wales or from mid-Wales to the north and south therefore cannot justify the expense of re-opening anything.
3. Trying to persuade people who want to go from Newport or Cardiff to north Wales to travel via Swansea will never work because it is bound to be slower than the alternative. So the market is the (limited) one of people travelling between (say) the Carmarthen-Bridgend section of the south and the north.
4. In short, the (limited) demand that there is for north-south travel is far better served by the existing route via Hereford, Shrewsbury, and Chester. It is both faster than any other route could ever be and gives meaningful connections for travel to the English midlands (at Hereford and Shrewsbury) and the English north-west (at Shrewsbury and Chester).

[Ian Hargrave]

In any case,major health facility centres for much of mid Wales are on the English side of the border and can only be accessed by a west to east trip by road. Inevitably own transport is a necessity due to length of journey involved 

 

 

 

[PatB]

I did wonder if there was any possibility of generating traffic by promoting the tourism/scenic value of the line, but having reminded myself of the prevailing landscape of the area, it seems fairly pretty but not spectacular, so maybe not...

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, PatB said:

I did wonder if there was any possibility of generating traffic by promoting the tourism/scenic value of the line, but having reminded myself of the prevailing landscape of the area, it seems fairly pretty but not spectacular, so maybe not...

 

Not that there is a particularly 'open aired' feeling to modern day stock, so views of the herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain are somewhat restricted, there are even seats nowadays without a window at all!

 

Mike.

[ruggedpeak]

Few observations, they were extra cautious with the Borders Railway as the economic studies showed limited demand. Hugely underestimated the actual demand and this meant insufficient track capacity was installed. So there may be hidden demand.

 

New lines can faciliate economic development along the route, but with the current economic situation, plus whoever wins the election will be taxing and spending the economy back to the Stone Age, that won't work. The other thing that will kill it is the insistence that it is electrified from day one.

[woodenhead]

This feels like a nationalist response to reducing using anything English and appeasing others with similar views.

 

That all the raiways head east into England reflects that within Wales the industrial revolution benefitted England as many English industrialists went to Wales to mine coal and iron ore that could be taken from the ground and turned into raw materials which would then be sent to England for use.  In South Wales there was also the massive movement of coal from the Valleys to Porthcawl, Swansea, Barry, Cardiff and Newport for export (some to London).  In the north there was quarrying and of course Holyhead was close to Ireland and great for exporting goods through.

 

The bit in the middle was sheep, important but no where near as infrastructure demanding as coal and iron.

 

It's no wonder that any route from North to South requires a trip over the border as the GWR and LNWR benefitted from buying into companies to enable them to create routes from South Wales to the industrial centres of England and these connected the North and South of Wales as routes converged.  But take away the coal and steel and many of these routes had no chance and closed, buses were more popular in Wales and now there is the family car too.

[PatB]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Not that there is a particularly 'open aired' feeling to modern day stock, so views of the herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain are somewhat restricted, there are even seats nowadays without a window at all!

 

Mike.

I've had no direct experience of UK rail services for almost 30 years, but I do get the impression that considerable effort has gone towards making travel by train as dull, miserable and uncomfortable as flying, without the compensatory advantage of speed.

[woodenhead]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Not that there is a particularly 'open aired' feeling to modern day stock, so views of the herds of wildebeest  sheep sweeping majestically across the plain are somewhat restricted, there are even seats nowadays without a window at all!

 

Mike.

We are talking about Wales here.

 

Even if the trains did have decent window views, the undergrowth, trees and bushes surrounding the railways are pretty intrusive too, it was so tight last week in Altrincham the train was acting as the tree trimmer.

 

But Wales is more beautiful than some think, I know Scotland and Cumbria has some lovely peaks but so does Wales and now they have the South Wales Valleys being added back into the mix as industrial carnage is cleaned up.

 

Just a damn pity about that 20mph speed limit, but it's been recognised.

[eldomtom2]

On 23/06/2024 at 12:06, The Stationmaster said:

So, geographically speaking, that  would better connect Mid Wales to South Wales plus the bit of North Wales served by the coastal route to Pwllheli. Presumably  most of North Wales will have to remains satisfied with a rail link through bits of England (should its residents actually want to acknowledge the existence of South Wales)?

If a North-Mid Wales rail link entirely within Wales is considered absolutely necessary surely the most practical option is for the government to fund a service on the Ffestiniog using a Revolution VLR or similar? Obviously the key issue in that case is that the bus would still be quicker...

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

If a North-Mid Wales rail link entirely within Wales is considered absolutely necessary surely the most practical option is for the government to fund a service on the Ffestiniog using a Revolution VLR or similar? Obviously the key issue in that case is that the bus would still be quicker...

Well they have already got the one up the Cambrian coast to Pwllheli so maybe they should give some attention to linking it to more of the north via Morfa Mawddach and maybe round to Caernarfon by doing a spot of reinstating of routes that closed c.50-60 years ago.   But they of course, like the Mid Wales Line and the B&M, went because there was little interest in using them and very few people were interested in travelling between South and North Wales, or vice versa, because they had no reason or inclination to do so.

 

None of the routes within Wales from South Wales ever got any further north then Mid Wales although you could change trains - once or twice - to get from there into North Wales.  But I wonder how many people actually did so?

[woodenhead]

16 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

If a North-Mid Wales rail link entirely within Wales is considered absolutely necessary surely the most practical option is for the government to fund a service on the Ffestiniog using a Revolution VLR or similar? Obviously the key issue in that case is that the bus would still be quicker...

Which Welsh people established when steam engines were still the method of propulsion unless they were off to school, Porthcawl or Barry

[Ian Hargrave]

6 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Few observations, they were extra cautious with the Borders Railway as the economic studies showed limited demand. Hugely underestimated the actual demand and this meant insufficient track capacity was installed. So there may be hidden demand.

 

New lines can faciliate economic development along the route, but with the current economic situation, plus whoever wins the election will be taxing and spending the economy back to the Stone Age, that won't work. The other thing that will kill it is the insistence that it is electrified from day one.

The Borders Railway connects several large centres of population with Edinburgh. Should such a scheme be proposed in Wales (and which has at least in South Wales large post industrial urban areas which include the cities of Cardiff & Swansea ) where is the connection ? The route of the A465 …the Heads of the Valleys road is roughly onthe edge of rural Wales in SE Wales (which is the high density bit) When I was a boy we thought of the Beacons as another country. Further north into Mid Wales,it was the scenic magic bit. Nothing much has changed apart from a huge increase in tourism and an improvement in Road surfacing.  Brecon,Builth,RhayaderLlanidloes,Newtown are all small country towns mainly dependent on an agricultural economy. And I suspect its population want to keep it that way.

With a caveat. For young people there are few prospects. A farm can only support one offspring usually. Thus the kids move away and are occasionally replaced by incoming migrants from the rest of the UK or Poland
 

There have been outcries of national outrage over the creation of dams in the Elan Valley & Tryweryn  but they did bring economic benefit in the longer term.  So then maybe a scenic commuter route to the commercial centres of Dockland Cardiff ….in a perfect world ?

 

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

40 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

We are talking about Wales here.

 

Even if the trains did have decent window views, the undergrowth, trees and bushes surrounding the railways are pretty intrusive too, it was so tight last week in Altrincham the train was acting as the tree trimmer.

 

But Wales is more beautiful than some think, I know Scotland and Cumbria has some lovely peaks but so does Wales and now they have the South Wales Valleys being added back into the mix as industrial carnage is cleaned up.

 

Just a damn pity about that 20mph speed limit, but it's been recognised.

I wonder if you have attempted a drive through the Rhondda recently when you and many others obsess about that speed limit ?  It’s indeed a good conversational issue. The main roads through the valley and other valleys in South Wales are stuffed with cars….the vast majority of them parked vehicles such as SUV or  4X4 and negotiating a way through that is akin to taking an obstacle course which means that your average speed is likely to be below the magic 20 bit. Those former miners dwellings are now the home of two or three car families.They were built before Henry Ford started it all so hence nowhere to park your shiny Audi or Toyota..apart of course from the stretch of road outside your front door. In short the roads of Wales were not built for speed or HGV supplying your local Asda.And in all of this we have kids walking to school along these crazily overstuffed roads .So maybe the WAG  had a reason for the new limit ?  Oh hang on though,it’s going to be “optional “

 

 

[woodenhead]

In Wales BR were quick to remove passenger services around Newport because they could not support the time it took to turn around a service, so the Eastern Valleys all lost their passenger trains, luckily coal and steel kept the lines open long enough to later reinstate services.

 

Tondu/Maesteg lasted a little longer before succumbing and again the coal money maker kept the lines in existence albeit truncated so a passenger service could be reinstated.

 

North of those lines where once there was the Vale of Neath to Pontypool or the LNWR to Abergavenny but both served as routes to England, and all gone and no-one is going to build a new Crumlin viaduct.

 

The only true Wales route I can see is the Brecon & Merthyr Railway and Mid Wales Railway, both long long gone as well.