Fitting Sound and modifying lighting to New Hornby Black 5

[zr2498]

The project for the Black 5 (Caprotti version), includes some changes to the couplings and lamps, as well as this sound installation.

Here is a link to the modification:

 

The sound project will be done in a number of stages. Initially, a sound decoder and speaker, and then dealing with lamps, firebox flicker and perhaps a stay alive if enough space can be found.

 

This is the kit used for the sound installation:

 

 

The Locoman Sounds Black 5 projects are excellent, and for the Caprotti I have selected the 'Alternative' version.

 

The tender design is quite different to the older model, as the chassis is die cast, negating extra weights, and the speaker enclosure included is large for fitting a standard sugar cube speaker.

 

 

It is quite a neat installation, ready for a 21 pin decoder.

 

 

However, in my usual fashion I would like to install a more powerful speaker, so much of the assembly will be removed / modified.

PC Board removed.

 

 

Speaker enclosure removed.

 

 

To get a large speaker in place, and to relocate the PC board / decoder the coal pan would need to be removed.

 

 

 

 

The largest ESU passive radiator speaker was selected.

 

 

The lugs were removed.

 

 

A photo was taken of the underside of the PC board as this info will be needed for future wiring changes.

 

 

To support the speaker, and give clearance to the tender wheels, a couple of styrene strip were added to the chassis.

 

 

Original parts from the speaker enclosure could be used to support the PC board in the new location, at the tender front end.

 

 

 

This top piece was modified, and some mounting pieces made for the new platform.

 

 

 

Platform installed, with 10mm clearance from the centre line of the tender body fixing screws.

 

 

To protect wires from the tender wheels at the front end, a piece was cut from the bottom part of the speaker enclosure assembly.

 

 

 

Installation using the original screw. The speaker was fixed with black tac.

 

 

Packing of the wires under the PC Board.

 

 

Decoder installed, and speaker wires connected. At this stage the rear lamp is disconnected. It would need extension wires if plugged back to the PC board

 

 

Tender body fiitted.

 

 

With a small piece trimmed from the vertical section of the coal load, it fits above the decoder

 

Test run and the volume, base and treble CVs adjusted.

Great sound from the Locoman Sounds project. Well worth the installation of the ESU speaker. These speakers are becoming my preferred choice.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by zr2498
Spelling

[trw1089]

Well done on the installation,  very neat work.  Those new ESU speakers are brilliant.

 

Cheers

Tony

[zr2498]

I opened up the Black 5 loco today to see what might be done with the lighting and firebox flicker control.

Unfortunately all of the wiring colours bear no relation to those in the tender, making identification a pain.

 

 

A view of the LED for firebox flicker.

 

 

Smokebox door detached (magnet fixing).

 

 

The loco PC board. There appears to be a J7 place for another plug. I wonder if that is for a steam generator, but only has track feeds L and R? This board does help to identify the wires though, assuming the symbols on the board are correct!

 

 

As can be seen, the board for the firebox flicker is buried under the motor, and it isn't even possible to see how it is connected. It is on permanently so only takes track feed.

 

 

The new Hornby 9F firebox flicker board was so much easier to get access to, and changing the wiring to be decoder function driven was relatively easy.

 

 

So, not sure if the modification for firebox flicker is worthwhile. As this loco was primarily designed for the HM7000 decoders, I have tried to get some idea about which wires to use, if the usual AUX 1 function (as with ESU) is to be used.

 

Here is a diagram of the wires running through the coupling:

 

 

And a diagram from the Hornby decoder manual.

 

 

From this, it seems that the green wire is for Aux 1 (they call HF03). This corresponds to A4 green wire, and the common would be HFO common, as GND on the loco PC board.

So, if I can get access to the firebox flicker board, then cut and connect the wire going into A4, and 'tie in' to the common GND for the return?

I wonder if Hornby technical would answer a couple of queries on this. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[trw1089]

It looks to me that I would connect the green to Aux 1 and blue to common positive and that would get you the correct flicker functioning.  I think they have mislabelled the loco PC board as GND appears to be common positive, but they are really confusing the wiring colours as per the attached markup, so just check again that this goes to U+ on the ESU decoder.  Honestly, this is why I tend to chuck out a lot of the built in boards and just wire up myself, at least I know what everything does then!

 

The file itself carries the latest firmware that synchronises the LED brightness to the exhaust chuffs and is quite effective, making sure that Aux1 is set to smart firebox.  I actually use the two Aux 1 positions with Aux 1 (1) as smart firebox as per normal, but Aux1 (2) as smart firebox with the brightness turned down to 8 (with LED mode on) and have that turned on by default on F1.  That way when you turn on the sound you get a dull flickering glow which will pulse with the exhaust, but when the random coal shovelling comes on or is set by pressing the F10 key, you get increased brightness as if the firebox door is opened.

 

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you need any more insight or help with the file.

 

Cheers
Tony

[zr2498]

20 hours ago, trw1089 said:

It looks to me that I would connect the green to Aux 1 and blue to common positive and that would get you the correct flicker functioning.  I think they have mislabelled the loco PC board as GND appears to be common positive, but they are really confusing the wiring colours as per the attached markup, so just check again that this goes to U+ on the ESU decoder.  Honestly, this is why I tend to chuck out a lot of the built in boards and just wire up myself, at least I know what everything does then!

 

The file itself carries the latest firmware that synchronises the LED brightness to the exhaust chuffs and is quite effective, making sure that Aux1 is set to smart firebox.  I actually use the two Aux 1 positions with Aux 1 (1) as smart firebox as per normal, but Aux1 (2) as smart firebox with the brightness turned down to 8 (with LED mode on) and have that turned on by default on F1.  That way when you turn on the sound you get a dull flickering glow which will pulse with the exhaust, but when the random coal shovelling comes on or is set by pressing the F10 key, you get increased brightness as if the firebox door is opened.

 

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you need any more insight or help with the file.

 

Cheers
Tony

Tony

Thanks for the help. This gives me some reassurance that I may be on the right track. I agree GND should be Common Positive, and I am guessing A4 which is the green wire in the tender = Aux 1. I will check that connection goes from the tender. through the coupling and to A4 on the loco board.

I really like the idea of using the firebox flicker in two modes, and may come back to on that one when modifying the functions with the Lokprogrammer.

Dave

PS Steamsounds AU - is there a connection?

Edited Monday at 19:54 by zr2498

[zr2498]

On 24/06/2024 at 00:04, trw1089 said:

It looks to me that I would connect the green to Aux 1 and blue to common positive and that would get you the correct flicker functioning.  I think they have mislabelled the loco PC board as GND appears to be common positive, but they are really confusing the wiring colours as per the attached markup, so just check again that this goes to U+ on the ESU decoder.  Honestly, this is why I tend to chuck out a lot of the built in boards and just wire up myself, at least I know what everything does then!

 

The file itself carries the latest firmware that synchronises the LED brightness to the exhaust chuffs and is quite effective, making sure that Aux1 is set to smart firebox.  I actually use the two Aux 1 positions with Aux 1 (1) as smart firebox as per normal, but Aux1 (2) as smart firebox with the brightness turned down to 8 (with LED mode on) and have that turned on by default on F1.  That way when you turn on the sound you get a dull flickering glow which will pulse with the exhaust, but when the random coal shovelling comes on or is set by pressing the F10 key, you get increased brightness as if the firebox door is opened.

 

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you need any more insight or help with the file.

 

Cheers
Tony

Tony

Well, what a nightmare!

I have traced the wires from the decoder socket to the tender plugs, and then on to the loco PC Board.

 

This is what I have found:

 

 

Yes, as you pointed out the description on the loco PC board is incorrect.

Now I wish I had bought a Loksound 5 - 8 pin decoder, cut the plug off to hard wire and scrapped the Hornby boards.

Too late to turn back.

What is strange is that Hornby have used the GND (pin 20), instead of the usual U+ Common pole (pin 18).

It looks as though the AUX 3 and AUX 4 may be used for the steam generator, and so these wires could be used as spares for controlling firebox flicker. This assumes I am keeping the lighting as is (for now).

Therefore, planning to use the wires through the coupling, changing AUX 4 wire to U+ common pole from pin 18, and AUX 3 wire to AUX 1 from pin 15. AUX 1 is the function output with coal shovelling on the Locoman sound project.

 

I usually have GND as one of the connections for the 3 wire stay alive so I have no idea if that is a problem with Hornby also using it for other controls including lighting?

 

Dave

 

PS

Just wanted to check the lights (if they are to be kept working , but modified).

Fine at the front lamps for fowards and reverse (same as DCC ready).

The tender lamp only works (white) in reverse. No red tail lamp in forwards which works with DCC ready.

I suspect some modified function mapping might be needed for forwards direction.

This is most likely the case with a decoder which is not Hornby, i.e. ESU for a loco which would not usually have working lamps.

I have the Lokprogrammer so more testing needed.

PPS

It looks as though more than function mapping is needed as not successful. Might need some wiring changes as well.

 

 

Edited Friday at 19:55 by zr2498
Lamp function check tested.

[zr2498]

I'll get back to the lights, but for now wanted to make a start on the firebox flicker modification.

 

Wires and lower piece of 2 sided tape moved, reveals 2 screws fixing the end bracket for the motor.

 

 

End bracket removed.

 

 

Clamp over the top of the worm gear removed, and the motor lifted out of the cradle.

 

 

Below is a view of the back of the firebox flicker board. Here the track connections from the loco, and those from the tender are both soldered to the PC board. Red +ve and Black -ve.

 

 

The 4 wires are removed from the board and then the two red and two black wires are soldered together externally, plus heat shrink.

 

 

The wires for AUX 3 and AUX 4 that run through to the loco PC board are cut short, and soldered to the firebox flicker board. Now the track connections do not connect to that board, and the flicker will be controlled via a function using AUX 1 and U+ Common Pole connections.

 

 

The black tac used by Hornby is a mess to deal with, and hoping it goes back together OK.

The associated tender wiring mod's will be done next.

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by zr2498

[trw1089]

Wow Dave. What an effort!  I wish that Hornby would not direct connect to track power like that, so much easier to sort of they were wired independent of the track feeds.  I think I’ll stick with my orange LEDs for now! 
 

Good luck with the rest of it.  It would be nice if there was a bit of standardisation in boards.  ESU have been pretty good to deal with from an OEM side when manufacturing boards that stick with NMRA wiring conventions, rather than Hornby seemingly setting up only for their own decoders.

 

Cheers

Tony

[zr2498]

4 hours ago, trw1089 said:

Wow Dave. What an effort!  I wish that Hornby would not direct connect to track power like that, so much easier to sort of they were wired independent of the track feeds.  I think I’ll stick with my orange LEDs for now! 
 

Good luck with the rest of it.  It would be nice if there was a bit of standardisation in boards.  ESU have been pretty good to deal with from an OEM side when manufacturing boards that stick with NMRA wiring conventions, rather than Hornby seemingly setting up only for their own decoders.

 

Cheers

Tony

Thanks Tony.

I guess with Hornby setting up their own non standard decoders, it will discourage customers going elsewhere for DCC and sound fitting.

Am I right in thinking the standard is to use U+ common pole for the power of ancillaries such as lighting, whereas Hornby have used track power with the return the GND?

Dave

[zr2498]

Continuation of the firebox flicker modification.

 

Tender wiring changes:

The tender following sound installation.

 

 

The green wire will be used for U+ common pole (pin 16), and the yellow wire for AUX 1 (pin 15).

The wires were cut from the plug.

 

 

And soldered to the decoder.

 

 

This was tested OK, with the firebox flicker only working when pressing F10 (Locoman Sounds) for coal shovelling.

I wanted to have a bash at what Tony @trw1089 suggested, and made some modifications via the Lokprogrammer.

 

First change was to have the firebox glow (as dimmable light) on pressing F1 for sound. Adding AUX1 (2) on F1.

 

 

Associated CV changes.

 

 

As this would represent the firebox with only leakage of light from around the door, then the brightness was turned right down.

The setting was reduced from 31 to 1.

 

 

 

Associated CV changes.

 

 

I may increase the brightness setting once the loco is re-assembled, as the setting of 1 might not be visible.

So now there is a glow with F1 on, and the bright flicker with F10.

 

Glow.

 

 

Flicker.

 

 

Now I have to re-assemble the loco, however I am still giving thoughts on what to do about the lighting.

Perhaps this could be changed to the conventional wiring via U+ common pole instead of GND return, especially now that this wire has been run through the coupling. This would enable the loco PC board to be discarded.

 

In the mean time as the Lokprogrammer was out, I have dimmed the front lamps to the lowest possible setting of 1.

They are still too bright, but much better (no longer flood lights!)

Setting changed from 31 to 1.

 

 

Associated CV changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by zr2498

[zr2498]

I decided this afternoon to get the wiring of the lighting more conventional, using power from the U+ Common Pole.

 

First the tender rear light. The lighting board was easily removed from the tender body.

 

 

To work the rear light there would need to be the power U+ Common Pole (pin 16), rear (reverse) white light connection (pin 7), and a new function using AUX 2 via F20 function button to control the red tail light independently.

 

As there would need to be the U+ to the front light, rear light and for the AUX 1 already connected, the blue wire to the loco was cut from the plug as that was a GND connection.

 

 

The green wire U+ already attached to the decoder was split, and then all 4 wires combined.

 

 

2 extra wires were soldered to the decoder for AUX 2, and rear light.

 

 

 

The existing wires and plug were removed from the the tender lighting board.

 

 

And the new connections made. AUX 2 to R-, Reverse light to W-, and U+ to F+.

 

 

At the loco end, the remaining wires were cut from the PCB and the socket used for connection to the front lights was detached from the board. Re-using that socket would enable the loco body to be disconnected as before.

The white front lights wire was soldered to GND and the blue wire to FOF, which are now designated as Front lights and U+. This is a reversal of the original arrangement.

 

 

Initial tests were OK. The CVs had to be modified to get the new fuction from F20 working with AUX 2.

 

 

So now in forwards direction F0 ON, front lamps only.

Woth F0 and F20 there will be front lamps and rear red tail light

 

In reverse with F0 ON the rear white light is ON. Switch off with F0 OFF.

I know this is alll compromise with the tail light but at least it can be OFF / White / Red

 

I have measured the height of the lamps:

Rear tender = 4.4mm

Upper front on smoke box door = 6mm

Footplate = 5mm

 

It's interesting that the fixed lamp on the rear is a good size, but the design intent of have the front moveable has cauded a compromise on size.

 

 

[trw1089]

Great work Dave.  It’s convincing me to rip out the lot and do a complete rewire if I get one.  Yes, U+ is pretty standard return on many decoders I’ve used, with the only real non-standard I’ve seen before being BLI in the US (now there’s a painful brand to rewire…).

 

Can’t wait to see and hear the final result, especially with that meaty ESU speaker, they are very good.

 

Cheers

Tony