How far afield did brake vans go?

[Olive_Green1923]

I’m interested to know how far afield did brake vans travel outside of their respective networks in the grouping era? Was it as far as the wagons did (which were mixed up all over place), or were they more regimented in being kept within / near their respective areas?

 

So, for example, if you were at the outer limits of one the Big Four i.e. West Wales or Cornwall on the GWR, or Brighton or Ashford on the Southern, would you have ever seen a Midland or NE brake van on the end of a train? Or did the brake vans get switched over when the goods trains entered a different company network? If it’s the latter, was this done at random stations, or was it at the next marshalling yard when all the wagons in the train had to be moved around before they carried on to their respective destinations?

 

Thanks.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

I’m interested to know how far afield did brake vans travel outside of their respective networks in the grouping era? Was it as far as the wagons did (which were mixed up all over place), or were they more regimented in being kept within / near their respective areas?

 

So, for example, if you were at the outer limits of one the Big Four i.e. West Wales or Cornwall on the GWR, or Brighton or Ashford on the Southern, would you have ever seen a Midland or NE brake van on the end of a train? Or did the brake vans get switched over when the goods trains entered a different company network? If it’s the latter, was this done at random stations, or was it at the next marshalling yard when all the wagons in the train had to be moved around before they carried on to their respective destinations?

 

Thanks.

 

Brake Vans were not goods wagons - and like locos would be swapped when trains moved to another companies tracks.

 

Now obviously this would not be done in places where it caused delay to other traffic so a freight from say the SR to the GWR would continue to a suitable GWR freight yard for the swap to take place rather than doing the swap at the point the tracks physically connected.

 

A further exception might be if the journey between 2 companies required the transiting of a 3rd companies tracks for a short distance (e.g. a train transiting between the SR and the LNER but requiring the use of GWR tracks to make the connection) In such cases it might be more convenient for the loco and brake van swap between SR and LNER assets to take place on the GWR.

 

This arrangement would mirror what happened with some inter company passenger workings where SR locos were swapped for LNER ones on the GWR at Oxford 

 

 

[Dungrange]

Put simply, the goods brake would be owned by the same company as the locomotive, so you'd only see a GWR goods brake if you'd also see GWR locomotives hauling the train. 

[Wickham Green too]

25 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

Put simply, the goods brake would be owned by the same company as the locomotive, ...

... reflecting the - more important - fact that the crews on board the loco and brake were from the same company as each other.

[Stoke West]

1 hour ago, Olive_Green1923 said:

I’m interested to know how far afield did brake vans travel outside of their respective networks in the grouping era? Was it as far as the wagons did (which were mixed up all over place), or were they more regimented in being kept within / near their respective areas?

 

So, for example, if you were at the outer limits of one the Big Four i.e. West Wales or Cornwall on the GWR, or Brighton or Ashford on the Southern, would you have ever seen a Midland or NE brake van on the end of a train? Or did the brake vans get switched over when the goods trains entered a different company network? If it’s the latter, was this done at random stations, or was it at the next marshalling yard when all the wagons in the train had to be moved around before they carried on to their respective destinations?

 

Thanks.

There were not through goods workings as they evolved thro the 1950' and 60's  except where companies had running powers or arrangements for through workings such as the many coal and goods depots around London a legacy of this are the Poplar lines at Acton which gave the GWR access  to Poplar docks . For example In the Birmingham area through traffic was transferred from and to the GWR via Bordesley Junction to the Midland lines to Washwood Heath thirty trips a day and the LNWR via Wednesbury exchange sidings 

[roythebus1]

On the GWR there was also the Crystal Palace lines at Westbourne Park!

[Wheatley]

Look on old OS maps at stations and yards on company boundaries, Helliefield for example (although that's a pre-grouping example). There's a fan of sidings between the L&Y and MR routes, those are the exchange sidings. 

 

Brake vans were outside the Common User arrangements so had to go back. 

Edited June 16 by Wheatley

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Brake Vans ... would be swapped ...... this would not be done in places where it caused delay to other traffic so a freight from say the SR to the GWR would continue to a suitable GWR freight yard ...

... such as "Moreton Cutting Yard, just east of Didcot" which "built just before the War, mainly for handling traffic for exchange with the SR at Reading" ( eg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moreton_Cutting_Yard_geograph-2912715-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg ). Not on the boundary like the Hellifield example but about fifteen miles within the GWR.

[sir douglas]

i was going to put this in Compound's wagon thread but since this appropriate thread is here

 

a GW toad brake at Hull in an aerial on Britainfromabove. look in the upper row of brakes above the tankers

Edited June 16 by sir douglas

[Dungrange]

But that photograph is dated 1952, so these are all BR brakes. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

On the GWR there was also the Crystal Palace lines at Westbourne Park!

But very little used for any sort of freight traffic.  For many years the only freight service which used the Crystal Palace Loop (the proper name for it) was the GWR's coal train to Hammersmith (H&C) which ran round on the down side in the vicinity of Westbourne Bridge, then went west joining the Crystal Palace Loop at Subway Jcn to enable it to get onto the H&C just west of Westbourne Park H&C station.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

... such as "Moreton Cutting Yard, just east of Didcot" which "built just before the War, mainly for handling traffic for exchange with the SR at Reading" ( eg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moreton_Cutting_Yard_geograph-2912715-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg ). Not on the boundary like the Hellifield example but about fifteen miles within the GWR.

Moreton cutting yard was basically a wartime addition mainly intended to relieve Reading West Jcn but it did indeed have through freights to/from the SR via both Reading to the South Eastern side and via Basingstoke.  The work - what was left of it - reverted to Reading West Jcn when Moreton Cutting yard closed.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

i was going to put this in Compound's wagon thread but since this appropriate thread is here

 

a GW toad brake at Hull in an aerial on Britainfromabove. look in the upper row of brakes above the tankers

But was that the scrap line?

[Steamport Southport]

29 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

But that photograph is dated 1952, so these are all BR brakes. 

 

However they would have still been restricted and like the SR type should have been sent back ASAP.

 

That's why GWR and WR brake vans had the location on the sides.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

27 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However they would have still been restricted and like the SR type should have been sent back ASAP.

 

That's why GWR and WR brake vans had the location on the sides.

 

 

Jason

 

The significant word there being 'Should'....

 

While obviously not ideal, the very fact that all regions were part of the same parent organisation would have meant in practical terms there would have been much less urgency in returning 'off region' examples back to where they came - after all whats the worst thats going to happen?

 

By contrast in the grouping and pre-grouping era a the withholding of brake vans owned by a different company would have had significantly more ramifications and most probably significant finical ramifications as it would amount to one company steeling anothers assets.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

But that photograph is dated 1952, so these are all BR brakes. 

Yes and no.  Some of those "BR brakes" are inherited from pre-nationalisation companies.

[rodent279]

Makes me wonder why there was no agreement to pool brake vans after the grouping. You'd think there'd be some savings to be had.

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Makes me wonder why there was no agreement to pool brake vans after the grouping. You'd think there'd be some savings to be had.

 

Because they were different and designed for specific needs? You might as well say they should have pooled the locomotives and coaches as well.

 

The SR were extremely protective about their standard brake vans as the other companies brake vans couldn't fit through some of the tunnels on the ex SECR area.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

40 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Makes me wonder why there was no agreement to pool brake vans after the grouping. You'd think there'd be some savings to be had.

 

Please remember that the 'pooling' of wagons in the grouping era was basically restricted to common types - anything remotely specialist or fitted with vacuum brakes was excluded from the arrangement.

 

As such its hardly the case that brake vans represented some sort of oddity in how they were treated.

[Wickham Green too]

47 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

... The SR were extremely protective about their standard brake vans as the other companies brake vans couldn't fit through some of the tunnels on the ex SECR area.

Even the former SECR 'Dancehall' brakes were boarded "Not to Work between Tonbridge & West St.Leonards via Battle".

 

A Southern guard had to remember to add a tail lamp when entering 'foreign' territory ........ two side lamps showing red to the rear were considered adequate on home turf. ( Prior to the 1950 Rule Book.)

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However they would have still been restricted and like the SR type should have been sent back ASAP.

 

That's why GWR and WR brake vans had the location on the sides.

 

 

Jason

That certainly wasn't the case for GWR vans.  The place name on those was the location to which they were allocated although until the changes made in WWII they inevitably went back whence they had come because the vans were allocated to individual Guards.

 

The important fact was not the location but the ownership - freight brakevans were not Common User vehicles so had to be returned to the owning Company

[Cwmtwrch]

On 16/06/2024 at 13:53, rodent279 said:

Makes me wonder why there was no agreement to pool brake vans after the grouping. You'd think there'd be some savings to be had.

There was effectively, in 1942, but imposed by the Railway Executve Committee. The outcome of the various resulting comparisons was an LMSR design for the RCH, arrived at in consultations with the unions, of which four were built, one for each company. The design was not perpetuated, apparently because no-one liked it very much...

 

After 1942, any van could be seen anywhere in Britain, in theory, but single-ended vans with the handbrake outside [i.e. the GWR design] were apparently not popular off the GWR, presumably because everyone else was used to double ended brakes with the handbrake inside. The REC remained in control of the railways until nationalisation, so almost all railway wagons, however specialised, were effectively common user from 1941/2. In BR days, ex-SR brake vans were photographed as far north as the Lake District and southern Scotland, and LMSR designed ones seemed to get everywhere.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

... ex-SR brake vans ... southern Scotland, ...

Well, I suppose Crianlarich is a little south of mid-way up mainland Scotland !

 

6/10/83

 

[Cwmtwrch]

Ah, but that one's apparently in use by the engineers, who were a law unto themselves 😃.

[Steamport Southport]

All depends on what you mean by BR days as the SR ones were rare outside the SR until the 1970s and then became commonplace elsewhere, particularly departmental ones like the one above as they seemed to like them due to the large cabin.

 

Never saw many of the bogie type up here though. ISTR there was a preserved one at Dinting which is now on the K&WVR, other than that we never really saw them.

 

 

Jason