Which Manufacturer should enter TT:120?

[andythenorth]

On 07/07/2024 at 02:25, south_tyne said:

 

 

I hope you're right. A 16t mineral wagon and maybe some standard BR 12t vans (plywood and planked) would seem to be easy wins to me. Replicating some of the N Gauge stuff in TT120 would be a positive.

 

No speculation intended, just providing an easy link to some of Peco's recent-ish N releases: https://www.ngaugenews.com/post/new-peco-n-gauge-quailty-line-wagons

[teletougos]

On 06/07/2024 at 16:33, cctransuk said:

 

With respect - that is just your point of view.

 

If modellers like one-offs, they are at liberty to fill their sidings with whatever they choose.

 

CJI.

I didn't say it wasn't my view?

 

It is based however on dealing with individuals like this who feel they are doing TT a favour by entering it, but who want minimum levels of subscription to their esoteric model that just are not reasonable, or who want to collaborate with other producers or developers on terms favorable to themselves but which are not realistic. 

 

The issue is that they have a tendency to go and bad-mouth TT, to folk in the other scales they participate in.  

 

Cut them loose, I say. Give them as little encouragement as possible. 

Edited July 12 by teletougos

[John Isherwood]

2 hours ago, teletougos said:

I didn't say it wasn't my view?

 

It is based however on dealing with individuals like this who feel they are doing TT a favour by entering it, but who want minimum levels of subscription to their esoteric model that just are not reasonable, or who want to collaborate with other producers or developers on terms favorable to themselves but which are not realistic. 

 

The issue is that they have a tendency to go and bad-mouth TT, to folk in the other scales they participate in.  

 

Cut them loose, I say. Give them as little encouragement as possible. 

 

If TT120 is to become a mainstream scale, it needs every possible sale to every possible sector of the market.

 

Dismissing, or 'bad-mouthing', (to use your own unpleasant term), a sector of that market that does not appeal to you will not contribute to the potential success of the scale.

 

CJI.

[MartinRS]

On 08/07/2024 at 21:17, andythenorth said:

 

No speculation intended, just providing an easy link to some of Peco's recent-ish N releases: https://www.ngaugenews.com/post/new-peco-n-gauge-quailty-line-wagons

If we do see Peco produce a 16t mineral wagon I hope it is the standard version without the so-called London Traders door. It will be much easier to add the door for variety than to remove the door if it is included in the moulding.

 

A conflat would also be nice in TT120 as it would be an easy to create runner for Hornby's Class 08. I'm sure I've read somewhere that some conflats were used for this purpose.

 

Lets hope Peco use their N gauge CAD to create TT120 versions of their proposed models.

[Pacific231G]

On 03/07/2024 at 14:06, Jeff Smith said:

Yes, now understood from comments above.  I looked on eBay because it is sometimes odd where stuff comes from.  The other year I bought some 1:43 scale textured brick paper for my Chirk layout and it came from Italy (is continental O scale 1:43 ?)

France and to a large extent Italy followed British practice so it's 1:43.5 ,  Though that was Maerklin's original scale, German manufacturers opted for the more accurate (for 32mm gauge) scale of 1:45 and that tends to be used in most of the rest of Europe. In N. America it's 1/4 inch to the foot so 1:48 scale (giving a somewhat overscale gauge) . 

[Pacific231G]

On 01/07/2024 at 03:40, jjb1970 said:

I find the term 'museum quality' a bit annoying as meaningless marketing verbiage, but that's just me. The Hornby TT HST is an excellent model. The power car capture the shape and detailing is good. Similarly the Mk3 coaches capture the look of the prototype very well and have good detail. The models have a good balance between detail and being up to being handled and operated without having anxiety attacks about bits dropping off or breaking stuff just trying to get them out of the box. The 50 and air-conditioned Mk2s look to sit in a si.ilar sweet spot and the Stanier Pacific looks great. 

Agreed though 'museum quality' tends to suggests super-detailed models designed to be displayed in a glass cabinet and never run.

The excellent Musée des Arts et Metiers in Paris has a gallery reflecting the history of railways. Many of the exhibits are the sort of largish scale showcase models you can find in York or S. Kensington, but much of the recent design history is told through straight out of the box H0 models from Jouef. They're exhibits in a museum so arguably 'museum quality'.

 

I also agree about the balance between detail and usability. It seems to  me that TT is a scale that allows one to build a model railway, using model trains large enough to connect with, in the domestic setting of an average modern home that can represent, without looking absurdly compressed, something less limited than a rural branch terminus, industrial yard or improbable TMD. 

I have an impression that 00 models, especially locomotives, are increasingly more about railway models than model railways. So they end up in display cabinets or running around what Loco-Revue terms "Locodromes" rather than forming an element in a complete model railway.  I think TT does therefore have the potential to encourage more actual model railway building rather than just the acquisition of collections of models.

Were TT available for my chosen area of interest (which sadly I don't think is ever likely) I'd be using it like a shot.

Edited July 12 by Pacific231G
clarity

[south_tyne]

59 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

If we do see Peco produce a 16t mineral wagon I hope it is the standard version without the so-called London Traders door. It will be much easier to add the door for variety than to remove the door if it is included in the moulding.

 

A conflat would also be nice in TT120 as it would be an easy to create runner for Hornby's Class 08. I'm sure I've read somewhere that some conflats were used for this purpose.

 

Lets hope Peco use their N gauge CAD to create TT120 versions of their proposed models.

 

I echo similar thoughts. Using existing CAD designs seems very sensible. I hope Peco do come forward with more.

 

I've taken the plunge and pre-ordered a green Class 08. At the moment, there's nothing really to run with it. Only time will tell if we get more suitable wagons, but a 16t mineral, a standard BR planked/plywood van, a conflat, and a 13t steel open would seem safe bets. Patience is going to have to be a virtue for everyone however, as I cannot see anything moving quickly. 

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

A conflat would also be nice in TT120 as it would be an easy to create runner for Hornby's Class 08. I'm sure I've read somewhere that some conflats were used for this purpose.

More common with Class 03s, something to do with their short wheelbase and signalling track circuits.

[south_tyne]

I also wonder when the first kit manufacturer might get involved with some injection moulded wagon kits? It might be that they feel there isn't the market for it, but I for one would love it if someone did. 

[Legend]

4 hours ago, south_tyne said:

I also wonder when the first kit manufacturer might get involved with some injection moulded wagon kits? It might be that they feel there isn't the market for it, but I for one would love it if someone did. 

Is that really the market ?  I thought it was primarily new entrants , they are unlikely to build kits .

 

What  would be good is if someone like metcalfe introduced building kits in TT120 . Let people extend beyond the trainset 

[teletougos]

 

 

One cannot expect every manufacturer to adhere to the same idea of what 'the market' is.  

[Ravenser]

On 12/07/2024 at 21:34, Legend said:

Is that really the market ?  I thought it was primarily new entrants , they are unlikely to build kits .

 

What  would be good is if someone like metcalfe introduced building kits in TT120 . Let people extend beyond the trainset 

 

A new scale is necessarily more constructional than an old established one. And while new entrants may not initially be into kit building, they may be willing to move up to simple kits more rapidly than we think. Put another way, people don't seem to have run screaming for the hills when Lincoln Locos bodies with motorisation are posted on FB groups. Rather it seems to have inspired one or two people to muse about whether they could have a go at something like that in due course. 3D printed bodies definitely seems to be something quite a few are open to considering, if not immediately then in the near future. And they are a very low-volume technology. There is already a range of laser-cut wagon kits, although I have no experience of either the kits themselves or their maker

 

Where building are concerned, I'd have thought the existing downloadable builting kits from Scalescenes and others would fill the gap. All you need to do is print the N gauge ones at a suitable correction of 125% (or slightly less) and you have what is required

[MartinRS]

To get back to the main subject of the thread, which manufacturer should enter TT:120?; if anyone at Graham Farish see Blefuscu's thread about his latest project in which he says an N gauge 08 has almost exactly the right wheelbase for a TT gauge 03 it could be them. I know GF are an N gauge manufacturer though Hornby was known as a OO manufacturer until a couple of years ago. A Class 03 would be an easy product to create. I'm not sure about the relationship between Bachmann and Farish, having been absent from the model railway scene for a few years, thought I understand GF and Bachman are close, and Bachmann presumably have the CAD for their OO Class 03 don't they? I can't think of a better way for Farish to test the market.

 

I don't know (or care) about any disparity there would be between the 'correct' wheelbase and the re-scaled wheelbase. If Hornby's marketing has been aimed at drawing-in people new to model railways then there is less likely to to be a large cohort of rivet counters in their number. I would certainly buy a re-scaled Farish/Bachmann N gauge bodyshell on a re-gauged Farish Class 08 chassis. With Hornby selling 8000 TT:120 locomotives in addition to those sold with their train-sets there appears to be a healthy market for TT:120 locomotives.

 

 

 

[47606odin]

8 hours ago, MartinRS said:

I'm not sure about the relationship between Bachmann and Farish, 

 

Bachmann own Farish

 

What would be nice now Bachmann have been commissioned to supply TT scenecraft buildings is they decide to drop on us class 25’s in TT as Hornby haven’t mentioned the class at all. But as they’ve just started the 7mm narrow gauge line, I wouldn’t expect them to drop in on the scale any time soon if they decided to

[Peachy]

@MartinRS & @47606odin you both make interesting points. 
Although out of all the manufacturers I’ve spoken to Bachmann have been the most insistent that they have absolutely zero plans for TT120. How the sales of Malc’s models Scenecraft commission affects that I have no idea 🤷🏻‍♂️

As for the 03, lovely idea, although one consideration GF will likely be aware of is the fact that the vast majority of newbies into this scale are using Hornby’s HM7000 decoders and until the slimmer 6pin arrives they won’t know if it’ll fit.. 

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Peachy said:

@MartinRS & @47606odin you both make interesting points. 
Although out of all the manufacturers I’ve spoken to Bachmann have been the most insistent that they have absolutely zero plans for TT120. How the sales of Malc’s models Scenecraft commission affects that I have no idea 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Presumably these Scenecraft buildings aren't hard tooled in the way injection moulded plastic products are, so the up front investment, at least, is much lower than for injection moulded products.

[Blefuscu]

3 hours ago, Peachy said:

they won’t know if it’ll fit.. 

Hmmm... At some point I'll have to try and work this out for myself! It might be pulling it's decoder in a brake van :'D

 

The wheelbase of the 03 is a fluke though. It just happens to be that an 11'6" wheelbase in 1:148 comes out as 9' in 1:120... and by even greater fluke the 4'6" wheels are not far off either. I've skipped over a few steps in the sums there - but, essentially, any N gauge 08 should be a good starting point for a scratch built TT120 03. It's a real gift, but that said, I think it's a unique case. I've certainly not found any other vehicles with a similar relationship to exploit.

 

I don't really think it would work as a starting point for a commercial product though. Wouldn't you want a 4th axle to take the crank drive?  

[gc4946]

12 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Presumably these Scenecraft buildings aren't hard tooled in the way injection moulded plastic products are, so the up front investment, at least, is much lower than for injection moulded products.

They''re made from resin, presumably using one-time moulds. However Bachmann/Kader have their hands full with other scales so I can't see them making inroads in TT:120 yet.

Their Liliput Continental European brand produces HO, HOe and N models, but AFAIK nothing in TT. 

[Legend]

I still think Heljan made an error not pursuing the 31 . They would have produced it ahead of Hornby , who I think hadn’t even announced it in any of their original phases . Miraculously Hornby now seem to be designing it , but I think it’s still 2 years away .

 

Heljan could still pursue a 25/26/27 . They have developed OO ones ,and maybe even O , so they have the research done . Announcing models not covered in Hornbys phases means that they must get it to market faster . In Heljan the thought process must be will I make more money out of TT120 model than producing something in OO . When they come up with models like 10800 in OO you’ve got to think they are scraping bottom of barrel in OO for subjects . Would a TT120 class 25 have given them a bigger yield ? 
 

Of course putting the cat amongst the pigeons they could announce a 47 . They’ve done the work for OO maybe they were developing TT120 at same time . The 47 will be a big seller . Heljan know all the different versions and liveries they can sell it in.  It seems to have slipped back in Hornby phases , and I’m not sure Hornby appreciate just how significant a 47 would be. So there’s  a good chance Heljan would get it out before Hornby gets round to it . 

[south_tyne]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I still think Heljan made an error not pursuing the 31 . They would have produced it ahead of Hornby , who I think hadn’t even announced it in any of their original phases . Miraculously Hornby now seem to be designing it , but I think it’s still 2 years away .

 

I completely agree with you. We probably would have had the 31 by now if Heljan had pressed on. Choice and competition in the market can only be a good thing. Just see N Gauge... Dapol, Revolution and others getting involved has kept Farish on their toes, and I would say drive up the standard and quality of their products. 

 

[MartinRS]

On 15/07/2024 at 08:30, Peachy said:

@MartinRS & @47606odin you both make interesting points. 
Although out of all the manufacturers I’ve spoken to Bachmann have been the most insistent that they have absolutely zero plans for TT120. How the sales of Malc’s models Scenecraft commission affects that I have no idea 🤷🏻‍♂️

As for the 03, lovely idea, although one consideration GF will likely be aware of is the fact that the vast majority of newbies into this scale are using Hornby’s HM7000 decoders and until the slimmer 6pin arrives they won’t know if it’ll fit.. 

When I put the idea to Graham Farish their response was, 'we do not believe that there are enough significant benefits over either OO or N scale for there to be a significant shift towards TT:120', so I see what you mean by their lack of interest in producing anything in TT:120.

 

Graham Farish have explained that the Scenecraft models, 'were commissioned by third parties and are not considered part of Bachmann Europe general range'.

 

Having always used DC controllers I never gave any thought to the space required for a DCC or HM7000 chip. I'm surprised that the vast majority of newbies into this scale are using Hornby's HM7000 decoders'. I might abandon my preference to DC, although automation using DC is fairly simple even if it results in a birds nest of cabling under the baseboard, that's if I continue with TT:120.

 

I must admit I'm disappointed with Hornby's TT:120 Duchess of Montrose. Looking at the photos I've seen it lacks a front coupler just like their A1, A3 and A4. I hope this is not going to be the case with future steam locos whether they are tank engines or tender locomotives. Like most modellers I have always had a disproportionate ration of motive power to rolling stock, though given the lack of front couplers I certainly won't be buying the Princess Coronation class. Had I thought about the type of layout I wanted when I started buying TT:120, a continuous loop with a couple of junctions leading to terminus stations enabling point to point operation, I might have held off making any purchases.

 

I really am put-off by Hornby's strange decision to omit front couplings on their pacifics. If any other manufacture does produce British outline steam tender locomotives I hope they equip them with front couplings. I suspect it would give them the edge over Hornby's products.

[Peachy]

@MartinRS the Duchess’s do come with an optional front coupling supplied in the goodie bag. It simply bolts onto the underside of the boggie truck. 

[MartinRS]

19 minutes ago, Peachy said:

@MartinRS the Duchess’s do come with an optional front coupling supplied in the goodie bag. It simply bolts onto the underside of the boggie truck. 

Thank you for the information. I was going by the photos I have seen and was beginning to think that Hornby had shot themselves in the foot. I think I'll wait until I see some feedback from modellers about how reliable it is before I commit to buying the Duchess, preferably with information on how the coupling 'as supplied' works as well as how the replacement Dapol magnetic coupling (or similar) works.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

When I put the idea to Graham Farish their response was, 'we do not believe that there are enough significant benefits over either OO or N scale for there to be a significant shift towards TT:120', so I see what you mean by their lack of interest in producing anything in TT:120

🤣🤣

 

I mean, of course they'll say that...

[Legend]

I’d give up on Bachmann . I think they are genuinely the least likely producer to join TT120 market. They identified 009 and now 0 16.5 as their outlets away from OO and N for growth, while Hornby are using TT120 as their growth engine . 
 

Bachmann in any case would be at the high end of the price range . 

Edited July 16 by Legend