RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted June 30 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30 3 hours ago, adb968008 said: what saving ? TT class 66 £129.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/colas-rail-class-66-co-co-66847-era-10-tt3016m Railroad class 66.. £99.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/gbrf-class-66-co-co-66705-golden-jubilee-era-11-r30334 TT mk3 £37.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-intercity-mk3-restaurantbuffet-e40728-era-7-tt4026 new railroad mk3 £34.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/railroad-grand-central-rail-mk3-buffet-coach-40424-era-10-r40444 TT stanier £37.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lms-57-corridor-first-1062-era-3-tt4007 Railroad Stanier £29.49 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lms-brake-third-coach-era-3-r4389 And of course TT Scotsman £176.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-class-a1-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3-tt3004m Railroad Scotsman £134.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-a1-class-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3-r308 you cannot have the argument all ways up… if TT is about being must be new, must be cheaper.. OO still wins Railroad is cheaper OO is wider variety N gauge is smaller N gauge is more detailed TT is a nice niche, and a good inbetween… but a second coming it is not.. to me TT quality is railroad+ it is not Accurascale or others. It is not the same as some of the really nice things coming out in N gauge, and those who want HO mixed with 00 are very very limited. it feels like TT is a nice cozy cave for Hornby to curl up and feel good inside because theyve no threat, but cannabalising the newcomer trainset business and dragging some converts does not equal expanding the market and bringing a whole set of new entrants…its just slicing up the existing pie… case in point being the considerable slow down in their 00 focus… more importantly the bottom line of the company.. revenue has not grown inline with inflation, despite adding a new product line..if TT is as big as being claimed, revenue jumps should be apparent.. 2022 £53mn, 2023 £55mn (2.5% increase) across the entire company and business lines in a year seeing over 10% inflation. The next annual report is due anytime, and the first one with a full year of TT sales…if its done its job, we should be looking at a huge revenue jump, maybe £65-70mn with all that pent up demand being released, or instead if it was warehoused prior, a moderate £60mn and nice change in cash position… if this is the next big thing there should be flashing lights all over it saying TT… dont have long to hold our breath and step back in amazement now.. if TT is doing its thing, thats when more detail orientated companies may decide to join Hornby in the TT cave and squeeze space on those comfy cushions stuffed with big fat folded pink ones. Imo I’m still feeling more BHS and less M&S about this. Neither of us know the eventual outcome - and I may not be around by then. We both have opinions, that's all - and they are both equally valid. CJI. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 7 hours ago, adb968008 said: You just compared TT to the 1980’s releases.. What you didnt do is compare TT to 2020’s OO releases. Why did you not compare a TT 66 to a OO 66 or a TT08 to a Bachmann 08 ? or a TT25 to a 00 25.. (oh sorry you cant do that). Your comparing CDs to VHS but not comparing CDs to Blue-rays. No, you did earlier Quote For less than £50 you can go on ebay, buy something from the 1980’s-2000’s and be up and running in an afternoon and have TT levels of detail and accuracy. On 29/06/2024 at 15:03, adb968008 said: And for everything else, there is railroad, with a huge supporting range of wider market products supported by a 50 year second hand market. 18 hours ago, teletougos said: But who does that ? Wouldn't you just buy current era N ? 6 hours ago, adb968008 said: what saving ? TT class 66 £129.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/colas-rail-class-66-co-co-66847-era-10-tt3016m Railroad class 66.. £99.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/gbrf-class-66-co-co-66705-golden-jubilee-era-11-r30334 TT mk3 £37.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-intercity-mk3-restaurantbuffet-e40728-era-7-tt4026 new railroad mk3 £34.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/railroad-grand-central-rail-mk3-buffet-coach-40424-era-10-r40444 TT stanier £37.99 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lms-57-corridor-first-1062-era-3-tt4007 Railroad Stanier £29.49 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lms-brake-third-coach-era-3-r4389 you cannot have the argument all ways up… if TT is about being must be new, must be cheaper.. OO still wins Railroad is cheaper OO is wider variety N gauge is smaller N gauge is more detailed TT is a nice niche, and a good inbetween… but a second coming it is not.. to me TT quality is railroad+ it is not Accurascale or others. It is not the same as some of the really nice things coming out in N gauge, and those who want HO mixed with 00 are very very limited. it feels like TT is a nice cozy cave for Hornby to curl up and feel good inside because theyve no threat, but cannabalising the newcomer trainset business and dragging some converts does not equal expanding the market and bringing a whole set of new entrants…its just slicing up the existing pie… case in point being the considerable slow down in their 00 focus… You are carefully comparing a TT:120 Stanier derived from the "full fat" OO scale range with a 1970s generic coach. There's no comparision. What they've done is taken the 21 century OO Staniers and shrunk them to a similar standard as the newtool Railroad Mk1s . Mk3s pitched as a good Design Clever version of the full fat main range Mk3s are being compared with 1980s Lima models... And a brand new TT 66 with centre motor drive, lights, NEM pockets and tooling suit to cover all varients which has to hold its own in the Eastern European market is compared with some 1990s Lima with a motor bogie But you miss the key point - TT:120 is a product for those who don't have space for OO. To run a half-way sensible looking 66-hauled train in OO you'll need at least 6' train length in 4mm. Few have it. At that point Railroad and second-hand ebay OO become irrelevant. To do so in 1/120 , you're looking at 3'6"-3'9". Now you might be talking ... Of course those who have limited living space probably also have a restricted budget : living space is commonly the first thing people spend extra income on. And there's no doubt that the cost of high-end new tooling RTR is starting to inhibit buying. To assemble a train with a 66 and 10 bogie wagons from Revolution or Farish is going to cost about £600. For one train . Ouch! N gauge is noticeably cheaper than OO - a Farish diesel is typically £160 and a Bachmann £220 . Do the same train in OO with high end tooling and you'll be comfortably over £600. And you'll need to accomodate a 9'6" train. Who has space for that at home??? Teletougous makes a fair point - wouldn't you look to buy new N? And when you look there you find Dapol with a stand at shows selling their Class 66 for £100 as a show special . And their Class 33 for £80. 21 century models with centre motor, decent detail, lights, NEM pockets. They will sell you 6 x MJA bogie box wagons for £100. Now you can have a 12 wagon train with 66 for £300. That explains the eye-watering initial price of £110 for the TT:120 66 - now revised up. Sell direct on the web and you can stand it.. The price point for TT:120 is visibly about or slightly less than the price for new Farish N gauge . Because the competition for this stuff is N . Not only does it explain the pricing it explains the spec. Continental HO has operated with 3 levels - "budget" , "hobby" and "expert" or some such equivalent for several decades . Over "expert " was the so-called "museum-quality model" . Hornby International has spent its existence mainly pitching at the "hobby" level - decent well proportioned models from modern tooling but not featuring the ultimate in detail . They are arguably more successful brands in the group. Hornby tried to bring the "hobby" concept here as "Design Clever" and a vocal group said they wouldn't tolerate it. New high spec tooling for everything , or nothing But "hobby" is exactly what Dapol have been doing in N for about a decade with much of their range, and they seem to be doing fine. Revolution are pitched firmly at the "expert" level - but most of their output is sold direct, on pre-order so they can hold the price down. Trains you can fit in your house to a decent standard at a price you can afford is the TT120 pitch.. Meanwhile, the stuff sells , as fast as they make it. That's the reality we need to address. The French I believe have a phrase "it works in practice. Just not in theory" That seems to be where we are here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted July 1 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 1 I find the term 'museum quality' a bit annoying as meaningless marketing verbiage, but that's just me. The Hornby TT HST is an excellent model. The power car capture the shape and detailing is good. Similarly the Mk3 coaches capture the look of the prototype very well and have good detail. The models have a good balance between detail and being up to being handled and operated without having anxiety attacks about bits dropping off or breaking stuff just trying to get them out of the box. The 50 and air-conditioned Mk2s look to sit in a si.ilar sweet spot and the Stanier Pacific looks great. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
moawkwrd Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 On 29/06/2024 at 14:57, adb968008 said: For less than £50 you can go on ebay, buy something from the 1980’s-2000’s and be up and running in an afternoon and have TT levels of detail and accuracy. Great… then you take them out of the box and remember you don’t have the space to assemble anything except a prototypically short train on a short end to end and it still takes up an entire room. The entire reason you gave up on OO in the first place. You also then turn on the controller and it sounds like a bag of spanners and forget fitting DCC since there’s no socket. Oh how I do enjoy completely disingenuous discussions. This is just turning into the original TT:120 thread… 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 1 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1 (edited) 13 minutes ago, moawkwrd said: Great… then you take them out of the box and remember you don’t have the space to assemble anything except a prototypically short train on a short end to end and it still takes up an entire room. The entire reason you gave up on OO in the first place. You also then turn on the controller and it sounds like a bag of spanners and forget fitting DCC since there’s no socket. Oh how I do enjoy completely disingenuous discussions. This is just turning into the original TT:120 thread… N gauge. To come back to the point of the thread, what if KR Models, Heljan entered TT120 ? It seems from the results i’m not in the minority, if they want a new entrant in to TT120 the clamour is for better detail than they are currently getting. If that was the case, and TT120 is a level playing field i’d be looking for a European entrant, like Piko or Tillig to consider it. But TT is a minority in Europe just as it is here, the risks are great. Edited July 1 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
moawkwrd Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) 5 minutes ago, adb968008 said: N gauge. To come back to the point of the thread, what if KR Models, Heljan entered TT120 ? It seems from the results i’m not in the minority, if they want a new entrant in to TT120 the clamour is for better detail than they are currently getting. If that was the case, and TT120 is a level playing field i’d be looking for a European entrant, like Piko or Tillig to consider it. But TT is a minority in Europe just as it is here. You either find N gauge too fiddly or too expensive, or like me you tried it and found that unless you’re lucky with eBay half the models you want haven’t been made since the mid-2000s and what is available is sold for similar or more than new TT. This discussion has been done to death; there are sensible valid reasons for choosing TT:120. The detail level is fine unless you want to glue them to your eyeballs like some weirdo and most would certainly prefer not to pay for useless extras. I don’t see how you can infer from the results that it means people want more detail either? They may want Accurascale to make the same fidelity models as Hornby and compete on price? You’ve no idea why people voted how they did so why try and dress up your agenda using the results like that? Edited July 1 by moawkwrd 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 1 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1 (edited) 24 minutes ago, moawkwrd said: I don’t see how you can infer from the results that it means people want more detail either? They may want Accurascale to make the same fidelity models as Hornby and compete on price? I cannot see Accurascale making a model to Hornby standard, nor have I ever seen anyone asking for it. I’m sure some would like Harrods to make Poundland products too but I cannot see that happening either. Its not just separately applied details, or design relief, its research… the prototype actually having the same details as the real thing. Hornbys Railroad 66 lacks research, but paints well.. i’m sure they've sold oodles of them, because they are cheap… cheaper than most models in any scale including TT… thats competing on price. I’m sure many are happy with TT, just as they are with P4 but its still a minority scale, fraught with capital risk for anyone to consider investing in tooling for it. I applaud Hornby for investing so heavily into getting it started but I do wonder if they will see a great ROI on it, or if its just eating otherwise OO sales… that should show in the next accounts as its a full year of TT alongside OO. Edited July 1 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 1 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1 Could it just be that the TT:120 community are wise to the fact that their chosen scale, for now, lives or dies with Hornby's current regime maintaining the last one's commitment to it. Everybody knows what happened to Tri-ang TT3 and they'd see another brand getting on board as a comforting bit of insurance. My personal guess is that any new input will come from a Continental brand already with a presence in the scale, rather than any of the OO competitors. IMHO, they are going to remain part of Hornby's problem rather than becoming a part of their solution. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
teletougos Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) I hope they stick with it. It's been successful so far despite hefty risks. I was turned off by Hornby when I was a kid. Their stuff looked plasticky, over-glossy, and I hated the huge flanges. Mainline/Palitoy to me looked better. Even Lima. But their TT that I've seen looks great. Maybe this is their niche? "Like OO, but fits in your flat." isn't a bad selling point. Edited July 1 by teletougos 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacTrains Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Just as an aside - interesting to see that MalcsModels released a re-liveried three pack of Peco's seven plank wagons in TT this morning. They are now all showing as sold out. I'm sure this was a relatively small run, toe-in-the-water sort of thing, but it bodes well for the scale I'd say. It's helpful I think to the discussion when we have concrete examples available to cite. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Yup @MacTrains that was a run of 150 wagons. Went live on the website at 7am. Sold out by 1pm 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefen1988 Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 (edited) Would laught if Piko here in Germany would bring a Warship Class 42 / 43 or a Westerner Class 52. 😀 Otherwiese, they started with US-Models in H0.... Edited July 1 by Stefen1988 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Flying Scotsman in HO anyone? Maerklin thinks there's a market - 2 or 3 rail. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 1 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said: Flying Scotsman in HO anyone? Maerklin thinks there's a market - 2 or 3 rail. And a right freak it looks, too. TT cab, OO chimney, and twice the price of the Dublo revival one by Hornby. Collectors only, anyone else, run for the hills! The valve gear looks lovely though.....😇 Edited July 1 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
teletougos Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Here's the Australian HO Flying Scostman : https://brassdepartment.com/models/precision-scale-models-psm-lner-class-a3-flying-scotsman-4472-steam-locomotiveusd-1650-00/ I don't know how good it is, but it's certainly expensive if you can find it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 So.. a thread about TT120 manufacturing has a comment made about an independent trader commissioning TT120 rolling stock that subsequently sells out in less than 5 hrs and the only responses are about HO products? Just about sums up RMweb in a nutshell… 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Well that comment was totally unrelated to re-liveried TT120 wagons - it was about continental manufacturers doing British prototypes........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted July 2 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 2 Apart from Hornby and Peco, in the next few years, probably the only way I can see another manufacturer offering RTR TT:120 UK outline models would be a manufacturer commissioned by Gaugemaster. They considered that approach for the class 66, but were overtaken by Hornby's plans. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 2 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 2 I think Heljan are still a good bet . Maybe a class 26 and class 27 . Not on Hornbys to do list , and unlikely because they’ve never made them , but Heljan have . Lots of people model Scottish Highlands . Couple this with Hornbys 37 and mk1 coaches and you have the basis of lots of TT120 Highland layouts . Then Peco could release their West Highland laser kits in TT120 too Joined up thinking or getting carried away ? 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
teletougos Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 5 hours ago, Legend said: Joined up thinking or getting carried away ? I think it wouldn't hurt TT to have a blue-sky thinking, 'chew the fat' thread for theorisings etc. There's a lot of unknowns, so why take too prescriptive an approach? Which brings me to the question the OP asked : I don't want another entrant in the UK scale at this point. [That isn't an option in the poll.] 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peak experience Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 What i'd like to see is a manufacturer of embossed plasticard bring out a range of brick/stone/corrugated panelling sheets for scratch-building buildings and walls, along with a comprehensive range of domestic/industrial/commercials/railway related doors and windows, downpipes, chimney pots etc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted July 2 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 2 4 minutes ago, peak experience said: What i'd like to see is a manufacturer of embossed plasticard bring out a range of brick/stone/corrugated panelling sheets for scratch-building buildings and walls, along with a comprehensive range of domestic/industrial/commercials/railway related doors and windows, downpipes, chimney pots etc. Maybe a fair bit of that is available already from continental suppliers? OK TT isn't huge in mainland Europe but there is some product available, at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peak experience Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 (edited) 8 minutes ago, spamcan61 said: Maybe a fair bit of that is available already from continental suppliers? OK TT isn't huge in mainland Europe but there is some product available, at least. It's the import costs/taxes that put me off. I did have a quick look a while back and I couldn't see anything akin to the thin Slaters A4 sized sheets. Slaters do actually do one sheet of TT brickwork at 1:00 - close enough, but it's English Bond and not what I'm after. I wish to model prototypes and it's unsuitable. They also do 3mm roofing tiles which will come in handy Edited July 2 by peak experience Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 2 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, peak experience said: It's the import costs/taxes that put me off. I did have a quick look a while back and I couldn't see anything akin to the thin Slaters A4 sized sheets. Slaters do actually do one sheet of TT brickwork at 1:00 - close enough, but it's English Bond and not what I'm after. I wish to model prototypes and it's unsuitable. They also do 3mm roofing tiles which will come in handy The most likely source of more varied 1:100 scale sheet material would be firms that supply (professional) architectural modellers. The target market may be reflected in price and/or pack sizes, though. Edited July 2 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Try this https://www.ebay.com/itm/116012071068?itmmeta=01J1THFDF3A2R34VWSJVZM3C8B&hash=item1b02dbb89c:g:aCIAAOSwoPZelf6e&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8Husuws9z0n6SnUf%2FTqcV%2FeWbvi7lw7y%2BMFP45vWJdRVLV3dY4M60agOblt0la2qRJtyYhVGwcJxRdrp%2BEjGT1cOHeA%2FhiyGcuG%2BeU9WoSKExwxsLtzfDaG6jzJN%2FhxHKNOJ2kYxyZ9xCUPDrbtzn9esk4VpkF%2BxtFgeSdzYlQFu0WwEXqxDzLVjy5pWqQIcgQTb1DAh3BgSYffgxH9cCkE4rAKW%2B98rAsCDc8h0y6RcVb7ljoFmicpyQbseJCyOPjDSF8SLZXQdLlrT1FIsc%2FydGi2novR8tFdfLZqo2nVH1xdLTMI0EfSKjjfxD%2FJ%2B1A%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR87XvdGOZA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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