New tooling Class 08/09

[Chris56057]

Far to expensive for a shunter, not for me. 

[luke_stevens]

7 hours ago, 40002 said:

But they could do a non sound dcc fitted version, or make it clear that feature only works with dcc. 

 

To do a version with the uncoupler in non-sound you'd need a high spec decoder such as Bachmann 36-570B (you need to be able to manage servo control). The current Bachmann price difference between the "Sound" and the "Sound & Uncoupling" version is £30. So a high spec decoder + uncoupler mech + factory install would be: £46.95 + £30 + £5 = an extra £82 addded to the basic version would give you a model at £292. Not sure that is different enough from the other models.

 

Luke

 

Edited August 9 by luke_stevens

[96701]

6 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

I think the autocoupler is a nice feature but it doesn't half look ugly. 

 

So I'll be sticking to plain vanilla DCC Ready versions that I will chip up as and when I can afford to.  I'm defo having a blue 08 but I'm torn between the Rfg and Provincial.  So I may hold out and wait for (fingers crossed) parcels red.

 

Ideally though I'd like one of the 08s in the 600 range.  I can number it after one that was allocated at Rosegrove then and name it Derek after my grandad as that was the local shed to his home. 

 

I seem to recall I took this at Rose Grove in the early seventies.

 

[jjb1970]

The auto uncoupler is what it is. For some it's a great feature, for others an eye sore, for others something interesting and no doubt many other opinions. If it uses a standard pocket then those not wanting it can fit whatever coupler they like. As a shunter I get that auto-uncoupling is probably more interesting to more people than on a mainline engine and outweigh the visual intrusion.

 

I like Bachmann's tiered approach which provides options and serves different segments. I have zero interest in sound and trick features so the cheapest version is what I go for. The mid-tier suits those wanting sound and then there's the bells and whistles offering. We have a choice and take our pick. I have a few HO models with exhaust smoke, working fans, fancy lighting, sound etc which I only bought because they were the best offer available when I bought them. Ordinarily I would just have gone for the vanilla version.

 

 

[97406]

One thing about the auto coupler is the visible copper wire in the coil. You’d think they’d stick a little black paint over it at the factory or use black enamelled wire. Not that it’s a difficult thing to stick some paint on it yourself, but…

[markw]

16 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

To do a version with the uncoupler in non-sound you'd need a high spec decoder such as Bachmann 36-570B (you need to be able to manage servo control). The current Bachmann price difference between the "Sound" and the "Sound & Uncoupling" version is £30. So a high spec decoder + uncoupler mech + factory install would be: £46.95 + £30 + £5 = an extra £82 addded to the basic version would give you a model at £292. Not sure that is different enough from the other models.

 

Luke

 

I don't see why you need servo control when the mechanism is obviously a solenoid coil.

[Pendle Forest]

14 hours ago, 96701 said:

 

I seem to recall I took this at Rose Grove in the early seventies.

 

That's a great picture :)  shows what could be found even in the 70s.  Sadly now all swept away and the ever longed for return of the 'missing link' between Colne and Skipton seemingly now set back yet again

[luke_stevens]

8 hours ago, markw said:

I don't see why you need servo control when the mechanism is obviously a solenoid coil.

 

To manage a solenoid in this situation you need a decoder than can do the "uncoupling dance" which only comes with those that are able to control servos. The actual chip behaviour is pretty much identical for both solanoid and for servo. I put servo in the discription as that seesm to be the criteria defining a high capability decoder. I believe it is also more complex than just a solanoid. It looks like the Bachmann uncoupler does 2 things: The coupling bar drops and the coupling hook rises. Not sure what comination of servo / solanoid this needs.

 

Luke 

[markw]

8 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

To manage a solenoid in this situation you need a decoder than can do the "uncoupling dance" which only comes with those that are able to control servos. The actual chip behaviour is pretty much identical for both solanoid and for servo. I put servo in the discription as that seesm to be the criteria defining a high capability decoder. I believe it is also more complex than just a solanoid. It looks like the Bachmann uncoupler does 2 things: The coupling bar drops and the coupling hook rises. Not sure what comination of servo / solanoid this needs.

 

Luke 

While the uncoupling dance is nice to have you do not "need" it, you can manually drive the loco to compress the coupling.

I think that due to cost and physical size it is unlikely that that Bachmann have used multiple actuators when a simple mechanical link can achieve simultaneously raising the hook and lowering the bar.

[spamcan61]

17 hours ago, markw said:

I don't see why you need servo control when the mechanism is obviously a solenoid coil.

Agreed, basically it looks like half an old school point motor, in miniature. How a DCC chip output can drive a coil like that, as opposed to a servo which is essentially a miniature dc motor,  is somewhat intriguing.

Edited August 11 by spamcan61

[G-BOAF]

On 09/08/2024 at 21:12, Chris56057 said:

Far to expensive for a shunter, not for me. 

Actually at retailers now it's cheaper to pre-order than the latest batch of 09s from Hornby due this year (non sound versions)

Edited August 11 by G-BOAF

[griffgriff]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Agreed, basically it looks like half an old school point motor, in miniature. How a DCC chip output can drive a coil like that is somewhat intriguing.

I’d guess it would drive a relay switch that would control the coil? 

[markw]

43 minutes ago, griffgriff said:

I’d guess it would drive a relay switch that would control the coil? 

It can be driven directly from the function output.

[fezza]

I think this looks fantastic, but I'm left with the question will I get as much pleasure and satisfaction out of this £320 version as I got from repairing and running a primitive old £20 Lima version picked up at a junk stall? I spent the morning shunting with on an old feedback controller and had great fun running it at a growling lovely crawl. 

 

The 'details and features' arms race between manufacturers is producing some outstanding models, but it is also producing eye watering prices. At what point will the market for top end models get saturated? Or will all these variations fly off the shelves?

 

Each to their own but... personally, I find spending very large amounts of money on 'perfect' models leaves me with nothing to do and a rather hollow feeling - I'm reluctant to even weather, let alone modify or respray,  due to the fear of wrecking something expensive...

Edited August 11 by fezza

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

I think this looks fantastic, but I'm left with the question will I get as much pleasure and satisfaction out of this £320 version as I got from repairing and running a primitive old £20 Lima version picked up at a junk stall? I spent the morning shunting with on an old feedback controller and had great fun running it at a growling lovely crawl. 

 

The 'details and features' arms race between manufacturers is producing some outstanding models, but it is also producing eye watering prices. At what point will the market for top end models get saturated? Or will all these variations fly off the shelves?

 

Each to their own but... personally, I find spending very large amounts of money on 'perfect' models leaves me with nothing to do and a rather hollow feeling - I'm reluctant to even weather, let alone modify or respray,  due to the fear of wrecking something expensive...

I think some of the new entrants have been very good at driving the market with smart social media etc to create basic marketing hype to drive sales. This is driving a combination of collecting for collecting's sake, and a pick and plonk approach to models. As you say, there is often a reluctance for fettle these high fidelity models, which promotes a shift from modelling to collecting. However collectors are forming a lucrative part of the market at the moment, although I also agree at some point various factors will see reality burst this bubble.

 

We don't know the economics of Bachmann's new models, but I do wonder about some of those knocking out locos for well under £200, they don't necessarily have effective infrastructure in place to support the volumes sold and have had to make some potentially expensive commitments in response to problems. I put Bachmann in a slightly different category, they are producing top notch models at top notch prices, but they have the experience, expertise and infrastructure for customers to be confident that the models will not only look good but run well and reliably. Further although RRP's are high, patience can see competitive pricing later on. Hopefully this remains profitable for Bachmann.

 

It is also important to note that both Bachmann and Hornby remain mainstays of the hobby and are investing in and driving innovation rather than just producing more detail. The DCC uncoupler is such an innovation, love it or loathe it. Who else is driving actual innovation and investing and taking risks for the future of the hobby?

 

I think the 08's are going to be a success and the auto-coupler has a place for those who place authentic operation over looks, and authentic operation is something DCC aficionados in particular are keen on.

[griffgriff]

Let’s not forget that Bachmann (like everyone else for that matter) are very capable of knocking out lemons. The high price point just makes punters more discerning and if its wheelbase is just 1 scale inch out the naysayers will be out in force and at that price who can blame them but I guess they’re enough chequebook modelling Bachmann fans about to make it a success whatever.

 

Griff

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I think some of the new entrants have been very good at driving the market with smart social media etc to create basic marketing hype to drive sales. This is driving a combination of collecting for collecting's sake, and a pick and plonk approach to models. As you say, there is often a reluctance for fettle these high fidelity models, which promotes a shift from modelling to collecting. However collectors are forming a lucrative part of the market at the moment, although I also agree at some point various factors will see reality burst this bubble.

 

We don't know the economics of Bachmann's new models, but I do wonder about some of those knocking out locos for well under £200, they don't necessarily have effective infrastructure in place to support the volumes sold and have had to make some potentially expensive commitments in response to problems. I put Bachmann in a slightly different category, they are producing top notch models at top notch prices, but they have the experience, expertise and infrastructure for customers to be confident that the models will not only look good but run well and reliably. Further although RRP's are high, patience can see competitive pricing later on. Hopefully this remains profitable for Bachmann.

 

It is also important to note that both Bachmann and Hornby remain mainstays of the hobby and are investing in and driving innovation rather than just producing more detail. The DCC uncoupler is such an innovation, love it or loathe it. Who else is driving actual innovation and investing and taking risks for the future of the hobby?

 

I think the 08's are going to be a success and the auto-coupler has a place for those who place authentic operation over looks, and authentic operation is something DCC aficionados in particular are keen on.

A very simple answer when it comes to price is volume - the more you think you can (and then do) sell the lower will be the unit price as development and tooling costs are amortised over far more more models and more quickly.  if you only release small quantities/variants initially and don't want to carry expensive debts then you have to charge a higher price.

 

I do wonder about the use of the word 'collector' as to me it implies someone who buys one of everything, or particular 'everythings', in order to create and maintain a collection.  Someone who buys, say, 4 or  5 examples of a whatever and then runs them on a layout doesn't strike me as being a collector.  Equally someone who buys something to stick in a display case isn't necessarily a collector (unless they have lots of full display cases).

 

I will admit to at one time buying an example of every loco produced for Locomotion/NRM - they go together to make a themed collection.  But iI stopped doing that a long while back because of both cost and space constraints.   Similarly I don't buy every WR based model from a particular period because it exists but I do buy WR based models of a particular period because they fit the area of my railway network interest.  You could call that a specialised collection but I call it buying something to suit a layout based on an area that appeals to me.

 

Horses for course but I do think the 'collector' idea is rather over-worked and has probably led some manufacturers, particularly Hornby in my opinion. astray

[spamcan61]

53 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

It is also important to note that both Bachmann and Hornby remain mainstays of the hobby and are investing in and driving innovation rather than just producing more detail. The DCC uncoupler is such an innovation, love it or loathe it. Who else is driving actual innovation and investing and taking risks for the future of the hobby?

 

I don't have any particular interest in innovation, I'd just like the product to work fine out of the box (including hauling a 'reasonable' load, and all the detail bits to stay on place.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 08/08/2024 at 08:17, zr2498 said:

I wonder what the haulage capacity of these will be?

I would like to use the model (with the auto coupler) to do 'actual' shunting duties.

That will involve coupling up to sets of rolling stock held in cassettes (1.7m long), and transporting to / from an elevator.

Unless Bachmann have changed the wheel tyre formulation, their products typically have a minimum drawbar force of 13% of mass on a total adhesion type such as this. Even at a lightweight all up 100g, that would still suffice to start 6 of Hornby's maxidrag axle wiper pick up Pullman Cars on level track, all close coupled so there's no slack between the vehicles. Seven such cars - which would probably fit in 1.7m - might occasion wheel slip...

[Clive Mortimore]

Having received an e-mail from Bachmann which contained a link to their new jokco/pilot/350 model I was advised by my wallet not to purchase the green with wasp ends model as it is correctly carrying a TOPS number. Having to renumber a new model costing £225 (without discount) even made my credit card wince.

 

It does seem strange that the livery which would have been carried by the most classes 08, 09, and 10 at any one time, green with wasp ends and D prefiixed numbers is not included in their initial run.

 

Never mind it gives me time to save up for one. Or look out for those off loading the older version and/or the Hornby one, which are still very good models.

[woodenhead]

@Clive Mortimorethey always save the best till last to catch those who cannot wait.

[adb968008]

Of course the true test of Haulage ability, will be to see if it passes the test of pulling Hornbys latest class 800 carriages.

 

😀

Edited August 11 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

On 10/08/2024 at 03:55, jjb1970 said:

The auto uncoupler is what it is. For some it's a great feature, for others an eye sore, for others something interesting and no doubt many other opinions. If it uses a standard pocket then those not wanting it can fit whatever coupler they like. As a shunter I get that auto-uncoupling is probably more interesting to more people than on a mainline engine and outweigh the visual intrusion.

As I understand what Bachmann have published to date I think the Autouncoupler is removeable from both the 08 and the 31. That being the case and with an autouncoupler equipped SFX Class 30 on preorder I am hoping once the novelty of the autocoupling has waned (not least because Kadee's are my default coupling with 'translator' vehicles in use for the odd tension coupling equipped loco yet to be fully commissioned ) I will be able to sell the autouncoupler. Further I'm thinking that factory sound fitted SF 08 and 30/31 will be able to control the uncoupler therefore there will be a market for it. Certainly the working fans from the SFX 47 can be fitted to SF 47's and work straight away therefore same chip with same project.

[JohnR]

Judging by the picture in the Railway Modeller, there is a socket on the underside of the 31 for the wiring from the uncoupler to fit in - question is whether that socket is there on all examples?

[zr2498]

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Judging by the picture in the Railway Modeller, there is a socket on the underside of the 31 for the wiring from the uncoupler to fit in - question is whether that socket is there on all examples?

Interesting. Any chance of a photo of that part of the magazine (without copyright issues of course).