Basuto Quay - GWR 1908 in 7mm scale

[magmouse]

Thanks, Russ. As it happens, an outside frame guard's van is on my stock build plan - partly for their period charm, but more practically because they are that little bit shorter than the diagram AA3 I am currently building. On Basuto Quay, every millimetre counts...

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

An updated plan, based on some of the comments above and more thinking:

NB that green rectangles relate to the fiddle year arrangements.

• Right hand end unchanged
• Main fiddle yard now a narrow strip bottom left, as suggested, to accommodate a single cassette, with other trains/cassettes stored on shelves underneath.*
• Goods shed cut away along the boundary of the scenic space - marked by the green rectangle bottom left.
• Completely reworked track for sidings, etc., accessed from the loop (nearest the front) via a diamond crossing over the 'main' passenger road.
• Hunt and Son now a building seen over the goods shed, to a mini fiddle year area in the left hand 25cm of the layout - cassettes accommodate two wagons.

* I plan to have small cassettes to receive the loco of a train arriving in the fiddle yard, so the loco can be moved with minimal direct handling of the model. Drive the train in, uncouple, slide the loco cassette forward (onto a mini extension shelf), slide the train cassette to the left, add the loco back on at the other end. Or swap train or loco cassettes to taste.

 

Goods operation:

• The siding at the back with four wagons marked acts as a head-shunt for the quay siding, and as a transfer siding for wagons going to Hunt & Son.
• Works loco lives on a mini cassette, comes out to collect wagons from the transfer siding, propels them into the works road, onto the mini cassette. The cassettes can be shuffled in the mini fiddle yard, allowing e.g. full coal wagons in, and empties out.

Pros:

• more realistic track layout (?)
• more scenic space (less used by fiddle yard)
• issue of leaning over the goods shed to lift cassettes eliminated
• cut-away goods shed retained
• transfer road added, increasing realism of operation (?)
• opens up the space in the left-centre.
• awkward 'exits' in the previous design eliminated - the approach now is that we don't try to hide the 'off stage' a train exits into, the scenery just stops when the train goes onto the cassette (just as the scenery just stops at the edge of the layout).

Cons:

• Hunt & Son works now rather lost - from many viewpoints, just the top of a building seen over the goods shed
• the long goods shed road before you get to the shed itself seems a waste - it can't be used for anything (unless a crane goes there?)
• there is no road access to the goods shed, as the works siding is immediately behind - both unrealistic and a lost opportunity for cameo scenes of horse drawn vehicles loading/unloading.

So, lots to like, but perhaps not quite there yet. It feels like there is a choice to be made whether I am prioritising the goods shed or the Hunt & Son works. If these two elements occupy the left hand end, it's a question of which is at the front, and which at the back. The goods shed could go at the back, but it wouldn't make sense for it to be a cut-away in that case. A cut-away works instead???

 

I think my next step is to try an alternative version with the works at the front. Please keep the comments, queries and concerns coming - they are really helpful.

 

Nick.

[drduncan]

Nick,

 

I’m enjoying the thread immensely. The only two point I’m not convinced by are the end loading siding and the cut away goods shed. My rationale is that the end loading dock looks too cramped especially given the new arrangement of the entry into the other sidings (which I like - avoiding a facing point in the running line). The goods shed: why? Surely Netherport has the good shed and Basuto only needs a yard crane… What I think might be useful if replacing it with a bed loading dock and fish dock (perhaps with edge of fish market building at the extreme left) for the O1 and maybe an S7 or tadpole…

Duncan

[magmouse]

Thanks, Duncan. I am increasingly thinking that trying to fit in the goods shed (cut-away or not) is not helping. I really fancy doing the cut-away shed, but it would make a great independent diorama / photo-plank, so maybe I should save the idea for that.

 

I like your idea of the fish dock, and you are right that the prototype logic is for the goods shed to be in Netherport, and just a crane here. The crane sorts out how lift vans get loaded and unloaded, and the end loading dock covers pantechnicons, so that's the storage and removal company's needs sorted.

 

Next revision of the plan to follow...

 

Nick

[magmouse]

Fish (and milk) market:

 

https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/records/somers-town-goods-yard-excavations-at-brill-place-camden-nw1/gallery/3

 

A long way from the Dorset coast, but that canopy! And who can resist 'depot' spelt with a circumflex on the 'o'?

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

I was just about ask if the despot depot goods shed was for anything more than a modelling challenge and a excuse for van traffic, but @drduncan is all over it.

 

The former could be achieved in any number of ways (why not let us look inside the goings-on at Hunt and Son, for example? Marine engineers' shops are fascinating and terrifying in equal measure :) ); the latter is already covered by the premise of the layout. Docks justify all!

 

Re. Small harbours and long thin railways, what happened to fish/fish traffic at Looe? 

 

For possible track design inspiration, have you already had a gander at Tewkesbury quay? 

 

Really lovely shed...but that kind of freight facility does make me think of dedicated overnight fast freight/perishables - 28XX territory - and the major cities they served more than the tiny spots where a van or two in such a train was loaded...sorry!

 

 

[drduncan]

How about the fish market on the Barbican, Plymouth for a ‘bitsa’ building just starting  to peek out of the left hand wings?

https://pin.it/7Agxna9mW
 

D

Edited June 13 by drduncan

[Harlequin]

Since the quay is obviously only connected to the "mainland" on the left, the buildings on the right seem to be perched rather precariously in a very exposed position. That's not necessarily a problem because if it looks right in the model that's good enough but the corner pub maybe pushing things a bit too far? What corner is it on and why is a pub in that most exposed and distant location?

 

Do passengers arriving/departing from the platform transfer to and from boats alongside the quay?

 

The idea of the light trough along the back is very interesting. If the lights were addressable colour LEDs you could play a sparkling, rippling water pattern across them...

 

[magmouse]

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

why not let us look inside the goings-on at Hunt and Son, for example? Marine engineers' shops are fascinating and terrifying in equal measure

 

Possibly - somehow I am less drawn to this than the goods shed. Not sure why. A cut-away of the works is still in the mix of possible components of the LH end, though...

 

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

Docks justify all!

 

Do they, though? I don't recall seeing a photo in my period or earlier of a van on a quayside - it's all opens (sheeted as required). In part that is because vans are a small percentage of the wagon fleet, but also because they seem to gather at goods sheds. On the other hand, if we imaging there is seasonal fruit traffic from France, as per the GWR Magazine that @Mikkel linked to, then maybe we are OK. Still needs some kind of a loading dock, which links to @drduncan's point...

 

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

what happened to fish/fish traffic at Looe? 

 

Well, that comment made me spend some time in the Looe looking at pictures of Looe. Some very useful atmospheric quayside views, but not entirely clear how the fish traffic was handled.

 

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

Really lovely shed...but that kind of freight facility does make me think of dedicated overnight fast freight/perishables - 28XX territory - and the major cities they served more than the tiny spots where a van or two in such a train was loaded...sorry!

 

Of course - I'm not proposing anything near that scale - as you say, it's mainline, big city stuff. But the idea of a roof with valancing over the transfer platform is attractive - as seen in @drduncan's link to Plymouth.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

49 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Since the quay is obviously only connected to the "mainland" on the left, the buildings on the right seem to be perched rather precariously in a very exposed position. That's not necessarily a problem because if it looks right in the model that's good enough but the corner pub maybe pushing things a bit too far? What corner is it on and why is a pub in that most exposed and distant location?

 

And there lies the fundamental conundrum with this kind of layout. There is a spectrum with, at one end, layouts that accurately depict a location to correct scale, and at the other, layouts that are completely made up, with little reference to any prototype. In between, there are layouts that are based on a location but use compression and simplification to fit the available space, then ones that are based on a particular line or region and drawn elements from several locations, then ones that (like Madderport) drawn more freely from a variety of inspirations, adapting and combining to taste.

 

Basuto Quay is somewhere in the middle of this spectrum, but does it lean one way, or the other?* I have mentioned that John Ahern's Madder Valley is a key inspiration, and I especially admire his way of bringing together a series of cameos from very different places. How can a tunnel from the Aberglaslyn Pass be only inches from a brick works? And yet the eye just moves from scene to scene, somehow untroubled by the disjunctions in between.

 

So, to Phil's point - there are aspects of the Basuto Quay design that don't quite make sense, and I am at peace with that, as it is more important to me to fit together the various cameo scenes I want to include. Given the space is relatively small in 7mm scale terms, I don't know of any bit of any railway that I could model accurately and be satisfied. However - the point about the pub is well made. It's there because I like the building, but it could move to the other end of the quay, on the corner of the block marked (on the latest plan) as 'warehouses'. There it feels it would meet the after hours needs of those working in the various businesses around the quay. It would also bring an attractive building more into focus.

 

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Do passengers arriving/departing from the platform transfer to and from boats alongside the quay?

 

The station has been built to serve the new steamer services, on an extension to the quay that goes off at an angle behind the old position of the pub. See my very sketchy hand-drawn diagram further up the thread. There will be a sign saying 'to the steamer' or some such, where the small, unlabelled rectangle is on the plan (between the ticket office and old pub position).

 

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

The idea of the light trough along the back is very interesting. If the lights were addressable colour LEDs you could play a sparkling, rippling water pattern across them...

 

Not sure about ripple effects, but definitely dimmable and colour changeable to allow transitions from day to dusk, with buildings and passenger rolling stock lit. Night sailings... (possibly stretching a point, but late afternoon sailings in winter? The layout will have very little greenery, so the clothing of people will be only indicator of season, and I could have swappable summer and winter populations. Gloomy winter afternoons with the lamps being lit should be as possible as sunny summer days).

 

Nick.

 

*As we are in the midst of a general election, I am tempted to say, what is the Overton window of acceptable approaches to the design?

[Annie]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

but not entirely clear how the fish traffic was handled.

The only photos I could find of the fish market/wharf at East Looe.  Plenty of rubbish modern ones about, but they are no use.

 

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/places/looe/east-looe-fishmarket-looe-cornwall-1920s-18721400.html

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/raddy-collection/box-4-139-268/east-looe-fish-market-quay-catch-23757425.html

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/raddy-collection/box-4-139-268/east-looe-fish-market-23757433.html

Edited June 13 by Annie
Added a link

[drduncan]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 why is a pub in that most exposed and distant location?

 

 

Proximity to thirsty mariners. 

 

Think Bridge Tavern, Portsmouth (I don't drink there as it is a swine to get to...there's no bridge, despite the pub's name...)

D

[Northroader]

The fish traffic at the small southwestern coastal ports isn’t a heavy bulk traffic, it would be offloaded from the boats ready gutted, and laid out for marketing in a small quayside shed. Then trundled along to the station in carts, hand, donkey, horse? and loaded into a minimum number of vans, and off on a passenger train toot sweet. Doubtful if ice would be used around 1900. Newlyn fr’instance was one of the busier places, but the fish still had to be transferred a mile or so to the sidings at Penzance.

Just looking at the plan, my gut reaction is too many sidings and points. Advice would be to keep the baseboard as wide as you can.

[magmouse]

10 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The fish traffic at the small southwestern coastal ports isn’t a heavy bulk traffic, it would be offloaded from the boats ready gutted, and laid out for marketing in a small quayside shed. Then trundled along to the station in carts, hand, donkey, horse? and loaded into a minimum number of vans, and off on a passenger train toot sweet. Doubtful if ice would be used around 1900. Newlyn fr’instance was one of the busier places, but the fish still had to be transferred a mile or so to the sidings at Penzance.

 

That's very helpful - thanks. Assuming said shed is off-stage, I just need a place to load into fish trucks (older open 'Tadpoles' or slatted side Siphons).

 

12 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Just looking at the plan, my gut reaction is too many sidings and points.

 

Quite possibly. Drawing the track at a scale 9ft wide (sleeper width) makes it all look 'denser' than it really is. With the quayside track buried to rail level in setts, it will largely disappear visually. That doesn't mean there isn't too much of it, though.... It's trade-off between wanting a good variety of places to shut wagons to (reasons for traffic to be generated) and not over-crowding the layout.

 

14 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Advice would be to keep the baseboard as wide as you can.

 

Yes, indeed - and it already is - at the back it is as close to the sloping ceiling as it makes sense to go (too little headroom further back, and a cramped look with the ceiling too close). Coming any further forward encroaches too far into the room, given there needs to be space for the operator (me!) plus guest viewer (you?) and a chest of drawers that can't be accommodated anywhere else in the house.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

The only photos I could find of the fish market/wharf at East Looe.  Plenty of rubbish modern ones about, but they are no use.

 

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/places/looe/east-looe-fishmarket-looe-cornwall-1920s-18721400.html

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/raddy-collection/box-4-139-268/east-looe-fish-market-quay-catch-23757425.html

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/raddy-collection/box-4-139-268/east-looe-fish-market-23757433.html

 

Thanks, Annie - very atmospheric. I think that - in the interests of not over-crowding - I'll have to have the shed off-stage, and the fish brought by cart or whatever to the loading point, as noted by @Northroader.

 

Nick.

[Harlequin]

Rough sketch of idea:

 

 

[Schooner]

Might've got a little carried away over lunch...

 

 

Not meant too seriously - there are mistakes I only noticed just before posting, like the now-random graving dock - but perhaps shifting the perspective 90° will be interesting to discount :)

 

Oh, and all the fun buildings  - pub, bonded warehouse etc - are on the Old Quay bit. Ferries on the upstream side of the pier. Pier buildings would include the ticket office - rail and ferry - etc, probs a small stores shed shed or three, and perhaps even an open-sided transit shed if cross-channel perishables traffic was a serious concern. End result would but quite open, quite light and giving good scope for distance-inducing backscene views.

 

Annnyway...!

 

 

Edited June 13 by Schooner
wurdz

[Schooner]

Re sheds and van traffic etc I think we're all converging on my basic premise that you don't need a dedicated facility for any of this stuff :)

 

Only the very biggest fishing ports had covered markets until c.1900; none that I can think of were rail served. If you wanted something that said FISH MARKET! to an exhibition audience then absolutely fair enough, but you don't need one for traffic plausibility. Hell, what a horrible word.

 

Likewise cranes etc - it would be entirely normal for vessels to use their own gear; perhaps Hunt & Son has a crane tank engine for heavy jobs...?

 

:)

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Rough sketch of idea:

 

 

 

Thanks, Phil, I'm processing....

 

One thing to note is that of the 75cm available depth, I need to keep all track where coupling and uncoupling takes place within 50cm of the front edge. Leaning any further is impractical partly because it is inherently awkward to do something that requires a high degree of dexterity while leaning that far, but mainly because the sloping ceiling means you bang your head!

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

28 minutes ago, Schooner said:

- but perhaps shifting the perspective 90° will be interesting to discount :)

 

Certainly interesting to consider. The main issue in terms of the logic is that the station has now been built on the end of the projecting quay/pier, rather than by the new quay, where presumably the steamers arrive...

[Schooner]

Wouldn't be the only railway-built pier to support railway-owned steamers!

[Northroader]

Just thinking of Waterford in Ireland, the quayside is tidal, and cargo boats sit on the mud for some of the time whilst they discharge. You need to have passenger steamers able to arrive and depart round the clock, so they had a pontoon built at the seaward end of the quays (Adelphi wharf)  Arriving passengers had to leg the whole length of the quayside to reach the railway station at the far end, (and across the river) So in your case any passenger boats could be offstage, but still fed from the railway station (you don’t have the room and the cargo traffic with the railway would be more useful to model anyway)

Here’s a nice little tin lighthouse (well, sheetiron) you might like. It’s on Newport Wetlands, just east of Uskmouth.

Edited June 13 by Northroader

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Just thinking of Waterford in Ireland, the quayside is tidal, and cargo boats sit on the mud for some of the time whilst they discharge. You need to have passenger steamers able to arrive and depart round the clock, so they had a pontoon built at the seaward end of the quays (Adelphi wharf)

 

Excellent - that is just the scenario I am imagining. Great to have a prototype example, and logic (cargo can manage with a harbour that is mud at low tide, but passenger services and/or larger ships can't).

 

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Here’s a nice little tin lighthouse (well, sheetiron) you might like. It’s on Newport Wetlands, just east of Uskmouth.

 

Nice. My 3D model is based on Morecambe:

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1207223?section=comments-and-photos

 

The stonework would need replacing with something more 'south coast', but I like it's character.

 

Nick.

 

 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Only the very biggest fishing ports had covered markets until c.1900; none that I can think of were rail served. If you wanted something that said FISH MARKET! to an exhibition audience then absolutely fair enough, but you don't need one for traffic plausibility. Hell, what a horrible word.

 

Thinking about it, I don't need a fish market - just a justification for fish wagons, and somewhere to load them.

 

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Likewise cranes etc - it would be entirely normal for vessels to use their own gear; perhaps Hunt & Son has a crane tank engine for heavy jobs...?

 

You read my mind:

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/310/7l16-neilson-crane-tank/

 

I'd get rid of that daft cab roof, and replace with a nice Victorian weather board.

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

Planning the very same for Vicky Quay :)