Basuto Quay - GWR 1908 in 7mm scale

[magmouse]

I am working on a plan for a layout to represent a quayside in 7mm scale, set on the Dorset coast in 1908. You can read more about the background to the idea in my blog, but this thread is for discussion of my draft plan, and for wider discussions about layouts with similar themes, constraints, and so on.

 

Here is the track plan:

 

 

To put this in context, here is a 3D virtual model, showing how the track plan relates to the scene:

 

 

Rolling stock is shown on the plan to give a sense of scale, and to ensure things will fit - the plan is very tight in relation to train and individual vehicle lengths. The vehicles are coded as follows:

• O1 - 4-wheel Siphon
• T34 - 4-wheel brake third (Slaters kit)
• E37 - bogie composite clerestory (Slaters kit)
• Tadpole - 6-wheel fish wagon (WEP kit)
• 517 - class 517 0-4-2T. This is similar in length to the 850 saddle tank, planned as the other GWR loco.

 

The area for the cassette fiddle yard and the run-round loop are designed to allow the following trains:

1. 517 and autotrailer
2. 517 and auto trailer, plus tail load (e.g. Siphon milk van, Cordon gas tank or horse box)
3. 517, E37 comp, T34 brake third
4. 517, E37 comp, T34 brake third, plus tail load (e.g. horse box)
5. 850 + brake van + 4 wagons

 

Train movements could work as follows:

• Auto-train arrives from the fiddle yard, and returns.
• Passenger rake arrives. After the passengers disembark, train backs up slightly, to allow room to run round, reverse back into the platform, and depart.
• As above, but with tail load, which is detached and shunted into the end loading dock.
• Goods train arrives into platform road. Loco runs round, detaches brake van and shunts it into the short road at the end of the loop (where the Tadpole is shown on the plan). Wagons can then be shunted into the quay siding. If they are for Hunt & Son, the works loco (Manning Wardle K class) will come and collect them from there. Anything for the GWR goods shed will require the loco to run round the loop again, and use the fiddle yard as a head shunt.

 

While I feel this is a fairly solid plan, none of it is set in stone. I'd be interested in any thoughts or suggestions people may have, whether it's snags in the plan or opportunities to add operational interest. Feel free also to post your ideas for layouts with similar themes, or which are designed for similar situations and with similar constraints.

 

Nick.

[Harlequin]

Hi Nick,

 

How will you make the small area of water at the rear look realistic? It is so close to the backscene that shadows will be a problem and the places where the quayside meets the backscene in particular will need to be hidden.

 

How will you access the fiddle yard? Is the intention to reach into the scene from the front or is access from the left hand side? In both cases, do you have room to lift/slide whole cassettes in and out without stock rolling accidentally rolling off the ends?

 

[magmouse]

Hi Phil,

 

All good, practical questions which I hope I have good answers to!

 

The plan is that the ‘sky’ will be lit from below, by leaving a trough between the edge of the sea and the sky. If I can get this right, it will add a sense of depth and distance - I think I will need to do a mock-up to test this idea. The far end of the quay, where the harbour light is, is tucked into the space between the sloping ceiling and the cupboard (see the photo of the room in my blog post linked above), so the only available sightlines are down the length of the layout. Bear in mind too that this is intended for roughly eye-level viewing from a seated position.

 

The fiddle yard will be accessed from the front, leaning over the goods shed, as the left hand end of the layout is against the wall. I have mocked this up full-size using a table and cardboard boxes, and it seems workable. The cassettes will need end stops to stop rolling stock escaping when moving them.

 

Nick.

Edited June 10 by magmouse
Clarification

[richbrummitt]

IIRC gap between baseboard and back scene is how Arun Quay is done. 
 

Initial thoughts on track plan:

- I’d try to straighten some parts out to allow larger radii and improve the flow of the track. In particular I’m looking at the quay and end loading sidings. 

- If the cross over (engine release) can be much further left. This might allow you to use the main as a head-shunt when working the goods shed siding rather than the fiddle yard. I’d move it as far left as you can. 
- I’d take the works siding across the quay siding and join it directly to the main. The track work just got more interesting visually and it removes the need to create space on the quay siding for wagons to access the works. 
 

Edited June 10 by richbrummitt

[magmouse]

Thanks for these suggestions, Rich - very useful.

 

53 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

IIRC gap between baseboard and back scene is how Arun Quay is done. 

 

Yes. I had the idea before, but I was looking at Arun Quay at the Gauge O Guild event at Kempton Park recently, and you are right.

 

54 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

- I’d try to straighten some parts out to allow larger radii and improve the flow of the track. In particular I’m looking at the quay and end loading sidings. 

 

I can check and refine this when I draw the track more accurately in Templot (another bit of software to learn!). It is perhaps worth noting that the drawing posted above shows the full width of the track (approximately to the sleeper ends), not just the gauge, with may make the curves look sharper than they are. I have worked to an estimated 6ft minimum radius, which seems reasonable for S7 standards with small locos.

 

54 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

- If the cross over (engine release) can be much further left. This might allow you to use the main as a head-shunt when working the goods shed siding rather than the fiddle yard. I’d move it as far left as you can. 

 

That's an interesting thought - if you are having to reverse up the train after arrival in the platform to release the loco, it makes no odds if you have to reverse a bit further. I'll need to do some more work on maximum train lengths to see how far this is possible - again, contingent on a more accurate plan in Templot, so I can test for where the fouling points are.

 

54 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

- I’d take the works siding across the quay siding and join it directly to the main. The track work just got more interesting visually and it removes the need to create space on the quay siding for wagons to access the works. 

 

I'd thought about that - I'll need to see how it works in terms of conflicting switches and crossings (you'll have worked out this will have to be hand-built pointwork). The one thing that point be off was that I want the works loco to take wagons in and out, rather than having a GWR loco take them into the works - I need an excuse to see the works Manning Wardle! It seems more plausible that the works loco has permission to go onto the quay siding, rather than the main. Any insights on this question, in terms of prototype practice, gratefully received.

 

Nick.

[AndyB]

To address Phil's earlier point about the proximity of the water to the backscene could you consider the harbour being very tidal, so there's dock gates needed between the ship and the backscene?

 

I really like this plan. Looking forward to seeing it built. 

Andy

[magmouse]

Thanks, Andy. A sea dock is an interesting idea - Port Isaac comes to mind. I don't think there is really space for it, though - it would be so close to the ship that it would look more like a dry dock. It's all going to hinge on me being able to get the lighting right - I'm hoping my theatre lighting experience is going to transfer to this miniature situation!

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

Just to underline how little of the sea horizon will be visible, here are the two sea areas viewed from a little above the baseboard height - the view from a seated position.

 

 

 

Nick.

[Chrisbr]

Not sure I can add much, it looks to offer a good selection of movements and interesting trackwork - is that a 3 way I see at the entrance?  

[magmouse]

10 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

is that a 3 way I see at the entrance? 

I’m hoping it can be a tandem, rather than a true three-way, but I may not be able to afford the additional length. Only Templot will tell…

 

Nick.

[Harlequin]

It all looks very lovely but I'm still a bit worried about the practicalities of the design.

 

Using the tight space at the end between the low side wall and the built-in wardrobe feels "uncomfortable". Will you realistically be able to get in there to do modelling? If the idea is to break down the layout and moving that end out to work on it, is that going to become a source of annoyance? To solve that problem: How permanent is the built-in wardrobe? Would the powers-that-be allow you to remove it if you built alternative storage somewhere else?

 

If the wardrobe did vanish then the whole layout would be easily accessible in situ and it would be a more panoramic scene. You could possibly pull the layout into the room a few more inches and thus gain some backscene height as well.

 

Fiddle yard: I imagine that man-handling cassettes containing, heavy fragile locos and rolling stock in and out, over the front scenery might be dangerous and stressful! I also wonder about the practicality of reaching over the scenery to mess around with three-link chains, to align cassettes and enable/disable any end stops on them. The rear location for the FY just makes "fiddling" awkward and off-putting. To solve that problem: I would suggest having the fiddle yard at the front and make it be just a single cassette connection, with more cassettes stored on a table just below it. That would allow the layout to be almost completely scenic and access to the cassettes would be easier and much safer.

 

Edited June 11 by Harlequin

[magmouse]

Thanks for these thoughts, Phil - usefully provocative!

 

Regarding access to the end, the idea is as you indicate to have the layout built as a series of boards, and so potentially exhibitable. That would also allow the end board to be removed to work on it. You are right though that it won't be the most convenient arrangement - I'll need to ponder it some more.

 

Removing the wardrobe is technically possible (there is nothing structural about it). However, I need to think ahead to the time we move out of this house, and the wardrobe helps support the idea this room is a potential bedroom - and as we know, house values are significantly related to the 'bedroom count'. I may be overthinking, this, but I haven't really seen removing the wardrobe as an option. Hmmm....

 

Moving the layout any further away from the wall/ceiling isn't practicable - not only because of the wardrobe but also because of other things that need to fit in the other side of the room.

 

Fiddle yard - you may well be right that I am being over-optimistic about the currently planned arrangement. I have tested the plan in a full-size mock-up (table, cardboard boxes for buildings), and the reach for doing couplings is OK. However, I didn't test for the 'manual handling' aspect with the size and weight of a loaded cassette. And there is the potential for this to be especially problematic if I develop back issues as I get older.

 

The idea of a small fiddle yard at the front is interesting. Some of my very early thinking played with the idea of the layout being designed for viewing from the other side for exhibitions, with the fiddle yard as you suggest. In the end, this wasn't really an option (too limiting in various ways), so the fiddle years became full width, and then the idea of the goods shed at the front arrived, as a way of squeezing in more scenic space and - specifically - the cut-away shed scene.

 

I am reluctant to give up on the cut-away shed, but.... a cassette system on the front edge would allow have several benefits:

• easier access
• more space behind for the Hunt & Son works - possibly with a loco-sized traverser at the end to allow the works loco to run round?
• removes the currently rather unsatisfactory sightlines where the main line and works siding enters the fiddle yard

The cassettes could even be semi-scenic - after all, if it's acceptable for a 43.5x size hand to come from the sky to work the couplings, why not two hands picking up a section of track?

 

More doodling needed...

 

Thanks again, Phil -

 

Nick.

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

Thanks for these thoughts, Phil - usefully provocative!

☺️

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Regarding access to the end, the idea is as you indicate to have the layout built as a series of boards, and so potentially exhibitable. That would also allow the end board to be removed to work on it. You are right though that it won't be the most convenient arrangement - I'll need to ponder it some more.

 

Removing the wardrobe is technically possible (there is nothing structural about it). However, I need to think ahead to the time we move out of this house, and the wardrobe helps support the idea this room is a potential bedroom - and as we know, house values are significantly related to the 'bedroom count'. I may be overthinking, this, but I haven't really seen removing the wardrobe as an option. Hmmm....

I hope that people can see whether a room is a potential bedroom without the presence of a wardrobe!

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Moving the layout any further away from the wall/ceiling isn't practicable - not only because of the wardrobe but also because of other things that need to fit in the other side of the room.

 

Fiddle yard - you may well be right that I am being over-optimistic about the currently planned arrangement. I have tested the plan in a full-size mock-up (table, cardboard boxes for buildings), and the reach for doing couplings is OK. However, I didn't test for the 'manual handling' aspect with the size and weight of a loaded cassette. And there is the potential for this to be especially problematic if I develop back issues as I get older.

 

The idea of a small fiddle yard at the front is interesting. Some of my very early thinking played with the idea of the layout being designed for viewing from the other side for exhibitions, with the fiddle yard as you suggest. In the end, this wasn't really an option (too limiting in various ways), so the fiddle years became full width, and then the idea of the goods shed at the front arrived, as a way of squeezing in more scenic space and - specifically - the cut-away shed scene.

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

I am reluctant to give up on the cut-away shed, but.... a cassette system on the front edge would allow have several benefits:

• easier access
• more space behind for the Hunt & Son works - possibly with a loco-sized traverser at the end to allow the works loco to run round?
• removes the currently rather unsatisfactory sightlines where the main line and works siding enters the fiddle yard

The cassettes could even be semi-scenic - after all, if it's acceptable for a 43.5x size hand to come from the sky to work the couplings, why not two hands picking up a section of track?

 

More doodling needed...

 

Thanks again, Phil -

 

Nick.

Your semi-scenic cassettes could be used from the front while at home and at exhibitions you could leave a cassette in place at the front and connect another cassette to that at the end of the layout. So your cassette storage at exhibitions would be at the end of the layout, optionally obscured if required.

 

You could retain the cut-away shed, it would just be moved back a bit. In fact, it could be deeper, giving more room for an internal goods platform and working space for transhipment. In fact squared, the goods shed and the works could perhaps be combined to simplify things a bit - but that's probably heading in a direction you don't want to go.

 

[magmouse]

20 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Your semi-scenic cassettes could be used from the front while at home and at exhibitions you could leave a cassette in place at the front and connect another cassette to that at the end of the layout. So your cassette storage at exhibitions would be at the end of the layout, optionally obscured if required.

 

You could retain the cut-away shed, it would just be moved back a bit. In fact, it could be deeper, giving more room for an internal goods platform and working space for transhipment. In fact squared, the goods shed and the works could perhaps be combined to simplify things a bit - but that's probably heading in a direction you don't want to go.

I’m ahead of you with both those ideas 😎.

 

A revised plan will appear once I have something worth looking at…

 

thanks again -

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

Needless to say, following this keenly!

 

IIUC, some quick suggestions for places to look for inspiration:

Devonport New Quays (extra interesting to follow the site's development from pre-railway to LSWR ferry terminal (/liners moored in the Sound, tenders taking passengers between train and ship)

Exmouth (this leapt to mind as I read the backstory for Basuto)

West Bay (seemed churlish not to link it on the way past!)

Wey(hey!)mouth Station and Quay

Poole (before re-development, also honourable mention to Hamworthy and its railways, but not too helpful here)

Southampton Town and Royal Piers; 'tho I prefer the earlier Town Quay as being more modellable

Wildcard: Wells-next-the-Sea

 

Map-wise it's worth digging into the Map Finder function - many libraries haven't been fully georeferenced, and so one can sometimes find just the thing by checking out those options. 

 

None of the above would make for good copies, but all have features which may be of interest and/or are the subjects of some great photography which might be helpful.

 

I've a preference for earlier trackplans/settings in general, as seen above, but Basuto ties in very neatly to the real-world boom of dock development through the late 1800s to c.1910, which is ace.

 

Someone somewhere mentioned a steamer, so I'm just going to leave this here

 

:)

 

 

 

A couple of very quick thoughts on the plan as presented above:

• If the goods shed were moved right it would
  • be more plausible for trains to disappear behind than a suspiciously thin wedge of warehouse.
  • the warehouse could then be extreme left, able to be modelled in greater depth and representing a traffic generation/cameo scene option
  • easier cassette management with reduced risk of unsheduled disassembly of the shed*
• If the sea wall were moved to the extreme right, it would
  • eliminate the view along the wall (this is in the 'con' pile, but...)
  • provide a more natural visual break to the (painted?) backscene seascape
  • give another foot or so of useful length**

...but if the foreground was the quay!

 

• It's a bit of a bit-part for the poor old Manning Wardle...!

 

*My O cassettes are a yard long, made of heavy ply, and are no trouble to move around. If you used something like the Intentio cassettes, with their positively-locating ends, I can't see any massive difficulties. Not sure it's the best option, but none of use can choose that for you anyway!

**which on first impressions would be nice to add to the platform to give the stock a little space to breath.

 

I'm afraid I've opened up SCARM, so there will be more to come...!

 

Nicely. Looking forward to more :)

Edited June 11 by Schooner

[Harlequin]

For further inspiration, I know it’s not a south English coast location but don’t forget Fishguard - the GWR’s big Edwardian gamble.

[Miss Prism]

 

(Camille Pisarro)

 

[Northroader]

French layout:

 

https://www.rmf-magazine.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=202219

 

Irish layout:

 

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10740-northport-quay/#comment-164658

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12 by Northroader

[Annie]

That little French layout is absolutely amazing.

[magmouse]

Thanks, everyone, for your continuing input - it's definitely going to make the final design better, even if I don't know quite how yet! I'm continuing to sketch out new ideas, especially for the left-hand end, so more on that soon.

 

To respond to a few of the comments:

 

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

some quick suggestions for places to look for inspiration:

 

Thanks for the list - some were on my own list (and in my growing photo collection marked 'harbour railways') but some are new. Poole and Weymouth are particular motivations for architecture at the moment.

 

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

I've a preference for earlier trackplans/settings in general, as seen above, but Basuto ties in very neatly to the real-world boom of dock development through the late 1800s to c.1910, which is ace.

 

Yes, but - Although the layout is titled Basuto Quay and the station has been built to bring passengers services to the steamers at the new quay, I am not modelling the new bit - that is off-stage. This is because I have an aesthetic preference for sailing ships and older quayside buildings - the generally smaller scale of these elements also helps, of course. The dock development boom you refer to helps justify additional traffic, and in particular a very small and simple passenger station (Southampton being a big inspiration for this).

 

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

Someone somewhere mentioned a steamer, so I'm just going to leave this here

 

Get thee behind me, Satan. Oh, and it's 320mm wide, which isn't very practical...

 

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

(Camille Pisarro)

 

 

As well as being a delightful painting of a delightful scene, I am struck by how low the ship is relative to the quayside. Tidal moment can justify a wide range of relative positions between ship and land, which could be useful.

 

49 minutes ago, Northroader said:

French layout:

 

https://www.rmf-magazine.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=202219

 

Irish layout:

 

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10740-northport-quay/#comment-164658

 

 

Two very atmospheric layouts - I especially like the French one, with the cluster of boats.

 

More anon -

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

23 minutes ago, magmouse said:

some were on my own list

Unsurprised :) One more I forgot which might be of use (photographically) is Teignmouth. Again, the scheme behind Basuto times out very nicely with its development from old to new.

 

25 minutes ago, magmouse said:

This is because I have an aesthetic preference for sailing ships and older quayside buildings - the generally smaller scale of these elements also helps, of course.

Hear hear!

 

26 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Get thee behind me, Satan. Oh, and it's 320mm wide, which isn't very practical...

Made you look!

 

....and you might only need half of it...!

 

27 minutes ago, magmouse said:

...the station has been built to bring passengers services to the steamers at the new quay, I am not modelling the new bit - that is off-stage.

 

Ah, this. For me this is the nub of what made me look at the layout plan and go 'Oh, interesting' rather than a straight-up 'awesome!'.

 

It's nothing to do with the scheme as a model railway, so do feel free to suggest I wind my neck in, but have you drawn out the coast, approaches (maritime and railway), river, and the development of the harbour over time?

 

In my head, and this may or may not be accurte for what you'd like to achieve, Bastuto sits on a river like the Exe but treated with a bit of modeller's compression: the main settlement being at the head of river navigation for sea-capabale craft of the late-Medieval (Exeter-ish, but more Bridport vibes), the river being served by an independent quay or two (Topsham-alikes) for a village, quarry, large estate etc through the 1700s to the construction of a 'proper' little port nearer the river mouth in the 1800s as shipping gets larger. Teignmouth is probably the go-to reference for what I have in mind. Then towards 1900 some bright spark realises the river is too narrow and shallow to remain viable and raises funds for an extension 'out to sea' (Weymouth, perhaps), and/or a locked basin (Exmouth). FWIW these developments typically took place on the East bank East of Trobay; on the West bank to the West. Don't mention Looe :p

 

That progression is as standard a history of port development - old = upriver, new = downriver - as 517s are a standard GWR tank class...and I couldn't see it in scheme.

 

Again, very much a me issue, a maritime issue, but I think that's why I wanted to stick my oar in :)

[Flying Pig]

The shortness of the platform and some of the sidings does strike me and I think they may look a little cramped at full size.

 

My other concern is the signalling and interlocking.  Having sidings spring from the platform road doesn't seem right for the period, but the GWR experts will be able to tell you whether it's a real issue.

 

I would reverse the loco release crossover and put a slightly longer main platform at the front of the layout.  That leaves more room for working out the sidings, loading docks etc in the middle of the plan, with the sidings connected to a non-passenger line (the loop).   Ideally I think, the goods shed siding should also be connected to the loop and cross the main via a diamond.

[magmouse]

Hi Simon - thanks for these useful points. The question of how prototypical the track layout is has been lurking in my mind, but so far I have been trying to get something that is both workable and gives me the kind of 'scenes' I am after. So your comment is timely.

 

Switching the platform to the near side of the layout won't really work - practically, it means coupling and uncoupling then take place immediately behind the canopy, which will be awkward. Aesthetically, I loose the quayside at the front, and I can't see the train while it is in the station.

 

As I rethink the left hand end and how all the track has to join together in the centre, I will aim to avoid sidings coming of the passenger line. Crossing over with a diamond would add interest to the track layout, in any case.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

51 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Again, very much a me issue, a maritime issue, but I think that's why I wanted to stick my oar in :)

 

A welcome oar - please continue to poke about with it.

 

I was imagining a coastal harbour, rather than river/estuary, so more like some of the Cornish ones. If you will excuse this rather scrappy sketch:

 

 

Rethinking in terms of a river location is interesting, and your point about the historical development is well made.

 

More thinking needed!

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

I've had my attention drawn to these 3D prints - ancient 1871-74 brake van designs, although strangely incarnated with modern underframes! (I'm not aware any of these things did get bulb-iron or steel underframes - seems unlikely to me.)

 

https://www.didcotdesignandprototyping.com/product-page/gwr-brake-vans

 

Perhaps quirky enough for Basoto Quay.