montyburns56 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Does anyone know if there were any regular trains in the 80s blue/grey period consisting of MK2D/E/Fs that were hauled by a Class 31/4? I seem to remember seeing pictures of them in the 80s from around the Midlands area and I know that they were used on Summer Saturday trains, but I'm thinking about more regular services. To be honest I think I may be confusing their usage on ECS trains as I seem to remember Oxley (where there are carriage sidings) being mentioned. I've found this picture on Flickr of one on a Leeds to Brighton service, but I guess it may just be another Summer special service. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mol_PMB Posted June 8 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8 The caption to this photo may be helpful: "...It was one of a batch of three class 31/4’s (31409/10/17) allocated to Leeds Holbeck for predominantly passenger duties (rather than empty coaching stock) associated with working portions of East Coast expresses that divided or joined at Doncaster, such as the Hull portion of 09:10 Kings Cross to Leeds and 13:35 return, and trains going beyond Leeds to Bradford and Harrogate. These workings required an eth fitted engine following the introduction of air conditioned coaching stock in 1972. These duties ceased with the introduction in 1978 of HST’s..." Not sure if this counts according to your requirements? This is purely ECS: 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted June 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8 Think the Hull - Brighton occasionally got 31/4 haulage, that would be 4-5 Mk2 air cons to Sheffield where it joined a Leeds(?)-Brighton portion. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) Not the greatest of images as it's a phone photo of my original print but it serves its purpose. 31462 13.24 Hull - Brighton. Ford Lane, just North of Derby. 30 May 1985 (a Thursday) The Railgen Archive shows 31s to be a pretty regular occurance: Sat18/05/1985 31443 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri24/05/1985 31468 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat25/05/1985 31465 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue28/05/1985 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu30/05/1985 31462 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri31/05/1985 31421 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat01/06/1985 31455 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue04/06/1985 31407 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri07/06/1985 31418 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat08/06/1985 31450 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu13/06/1985 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri14/06/1985 31444 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat15/06/1985 31444 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri21/06/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/06/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed03/07/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu04/07/1985 31421 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri05/07/1985 31465 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat06/07/1985 31466 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu11/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri12/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat13/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat20/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue23/07/1985 31424 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed24/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu25/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri26/07/1985 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat27/07/1985 31450 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed31/07/1985 31445 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat03/08/1985 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri09/08/1985 31453 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat10/08/1985 31453 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat17/08/1985 31414 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri23/08/1985 31460 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat24/08/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue27/08/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed28/08/1985 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu29/08/1985 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat31/08/1985 31433 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri13/09/1985 31417 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat21/09/1985 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat28/09/1985 31432 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon30/09/1985 31406 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri04/10/1985 31441 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon07/10/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue08/10/1985 31434 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Sheffield - Birmingham New Street At least Thu10/10/1985 31451 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Derby - Birmingham New Street Sat19/10/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri01/11/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu14/11/1985 31435 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri15/11/1985 31451 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue26/11/1985 31407 1O86 1400 Leeds - Poole between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri29/11/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue03/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed04/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri13/12/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed18/12/1985 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu19/12/1985 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri20/12/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat21/12/1985 31401 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon30/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat18/01/1986 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat01/02/1986 31463 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon03/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue04/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon10/02/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue11/02/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Reading via Camp Hill, avoiding Birmingham Fri14/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat15/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat05/04/1986 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat12/04/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri18/04/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon28/04/1986 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri09/05/1986 31455 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Edited June 8 by Flood 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mol_PMB Posted June 8 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8 Blimey, that must have been a slooooooow train. A Ped on 9 coaches including 6 aircon. 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted June 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, rodent279 said: Think the Hull - Brighton occasionally got 31/4 haulage, that would be 4-5 Mk2 air cons to Sheffield where it joined a Leeds(?)-Brighton portion. The shunt at Sheffield was one of the very few places where you could get a bit of 08 haulage. The 31/4 struggled with the combined train to New St. where a 47 invariably took over. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted June 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8 21 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said: Blimey, that must have been a slooooooow train. A Ped on 9 coaches including 6 aircon. If you go to New St today, you might just catch it arriving! 🥳 1 1 2 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Comment on Cardiff - Portsmouth discussion on rmweb. One quoted below is for mid 80's, other comments on that thread to 31/4s used for that route on late 70s trains. I couldn't see any references to what coaching stock though. "Jonny777 37/4s were rostered to work the Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol leg of Portsmouth Harbour trains for a while during the mid to late 80s. Brian R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said: Blimey, that must have been a slooooooow train. A Ped on 9 coaches including 6 aircon. Brush 2s used to do the Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn trains when they were first introduced. Initially the 1st batch of 20 ("toffee apples"), they soon changed to the production models. The trains were 9 coaches with a catering vehicle in the middle. They were superseded by the first 30 EE type 3s (D6700-D6729)when they were introduced. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted June 8 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, H2O said: Comment on Cardiff - Portsmouth discussion on rmweb. One quoted below is for mid 80's, other comments on that thread to 31/4s used for that route on late 70s trains. I couldn't see any references to what coaching stock though. "Jonny777 37/4s were rostered to work the Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol leg of Portsmouth Harbour trains for a while during the mid to late 80s. Brian R I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they would have been air con. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 43 minutes ago, rodent279 said: I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they would have been air con. I used to travel on those trains and they were non air con until the introduction of sprinters 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted June 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9 (edited) To be fair to class 31's, they could shift on occasions, like 206/404 on the RESL Grampian Highlander tour. They came on at Sheffield I think, and the run up the Midland to St Pancras was memorable for speeds in the high 80s & low 90s much of the way south of Bedford. Granted though, this was a railtour formed of mk1 stock, not air cons. Edited June 9 by rodent279 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold wombatofludham Posted June 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9 Some Birmingham to Paddington trains would occasionally end up with a 31 and air conditioned coaches, such as this picture by Robert Phipps on Flickr Class 31 Birmingham international Most of the time the trains were 50 or 47 hauled but 31s would turn up enough times to make it a semi-regular event. I seem to recall there was a 31 hauled Cross Country which departed Birmingham mid afternoon with a scheduled 31 and which made stops at Tamworth and Burton, which would have challenged a 31 having to tap about 300hp for the hotel power for the air conditioning. Might have been a return working for the Hull inbound loco I expect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold wombatofludham Posted June 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9 Another interesting 31 on Mk2 air cons at Wolverhampton on an ex-Paddington train, again from Flickr, in engineers "doom grey" livery https://www.flickr.com/photos/68347154@N05/32265952964/ The caption suggests this was a semi-regular event. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
montyburns56 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 23 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: The caption to this photo may be helpful: "...It was one of a batch of three class 31/4’s (31409/10/17) allocated to Leeds Holbeck for predominantly passenger duties (rather than empty coaching stock) associated with working portions of East Coast expresses that divided or joined at Doncaster, such as the Hull portion of 09:10 Kings Cross to Leeds and 13:35 return, and trains going beyond Leeds to Bradford and Harrogate. These workings required an eth fitted engine following the introduction of air conditioned coaching stock in 1972. These duties ceased with the introduction in 1978 of HST’s..." Not sure if this counts according to your requirements? Thanks, I was thinking more about the 80s, but I did find this Flickr pic that showed what you are referring to and as I'm trying to find any excuse to run my Class 31 with blue/grey MK2F coaches, so I'll take it! Plus the train is nice and short which is a bonus for my cramped layout. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
montyburns56 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 22 hours ago, Flood said: Not the greatest of images as it's a phone photo of my original print but it serves its purpose. 31462 13.24 Hull - Brighton. Ford Lane, just North of Derby. 30 May 1985 (a Thursday) The Railgen Archive shows 31s to be a pretty regular occurance: Sat18/05/1985 31443 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri24/05/1985 31468 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat25/05/1985 31465 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue28/05/1985 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu30/05/1985 31462 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri31/05/1985 31421 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat01/06/1985 31455 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue04/06/1985 31407 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri07/06/1985 31418 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat08/06/1985 31450 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu13/06/1985 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri14/06/1985 31444 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat15/06/1985 31444 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri21/06/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/06/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed03/07/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu04/07/1985 31421 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri05/07/1985 31465 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat06/07/1985 31466 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu11/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri12/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat13/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat20/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue23/07/1985 31424 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed24/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu25/07/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri26/07/1985 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat27/07/1985 31450 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed31/07/1985 31445 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat03/08/1985 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri09/08/1985 31453 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat10/08/1985 31453 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat17/08/1985 31414 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri23/08/1985 31460 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat24/08/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue27/08/1985 31461 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed28/08/1985 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu29/08/1985 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat31/08/1985 31433 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri13/09/1985 31417 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat21/09/1985 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat28/09/1985 31432 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon30/09/1985 31406 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri04/10/1985 31441 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon07/10/1985 31442 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue08/10/1985 31434 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Sheffield - Birmingham New Street At least Thu10/10/1985 31451 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Derby - Birmingham New Street Sat19/10/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri01/11/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu14/11/1985 31435 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri15/11/1985 31451 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue26/11/1985 31407 1O86 1400 Leeds - Poole between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri29/11/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue03/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed04/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri13/12/1985 31436 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Wed18/12/1985 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thu19/12/1985 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri20/12/1985 31420 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat21/12/1985 31401 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon30/12/1985 31431 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat18/01/1986 31458 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat01/02/1986 31463 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon03/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue04/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon10/02/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Tue11/02/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/02/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Reading via Camp Hill, avoiding Birmingham Fri14/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat15/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat22/03/1986 31426 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat05/04/1986 31439 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Sat12/04/1986 31419 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri18/04/1986 31437 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Mon28/04/1986 31457 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Fri09/05/1986 31455 1O86 1400 Leeds - Brighton between Leeds - Birmingham New Street Thank, so It seems that it was a semi regular occurrence. I've been trying to find pictures of the train on Flickr and it has highlighted how very modellable the train was with the short rakes. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9 (edited) Timekeeping with them on those Birmingham - Paddington runs was dire. Travelling on a cold day to a job at Banbury we struggled to make it up the bank from Leamington towards Fenny Compton. One driver told us you could have either traction power or train supply but not both together if you wanted to keep time going uphill. Edited June 9 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
montyburns56 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 14 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Timekeeping with them on those Birmingham - Paddington runs was dire. Travelling on a cold day to a job at Banbury we struggled to make it up the bank from Leamington towards Fenny Compton. One driver told us you could have either traction power or train supply but not both together if you wanted to keep time going uphill. "Ladies and gentleman you have a choice on this train. You can either be cold and moving or stationary and warm. What will it be?" 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 9 hours ago, rodent279 said: To be fair to class 31's, they could shift on occasions, like 206/404 on the RESL Grampian Highlander tour. They came on at Sheffield I think, and the run up the Midland to St Pancras was memorable for speeds in the high 80s & low 90s much of the way south of Bedford. Granted though, this was a railtour formed of mk1 stock, not air cons. The ETH was the problem, once that was on it was sapping power that would otherwise be used for traction... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) In 1980/1 I commuted from Derby to Birmingham for a while. My morning train was a Sheffield-Cardiff service which was 0650-ish something or other from Derby. It was formed of air cons and booked for a 47/4 however at least twice a week, and sometimes more frequently, it would turn up with an ER 31/4 on it. If it had been non-stop to New St it would probably have been ok but iirc it called at Burton, Tamworth, Wilnecote and Water Orton so the lack of grunt was very apparent when restarting from those stops. Needless to say it lost time hand over fist. As an aside, often unsuitable power turning up at New St would come off and Saltley would find something better. However I don't ever recall the 31 on my morning train coming off at New St and it worked through onto the WR. Edited June 10 by DY444 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
montyburns56 Posted June 10 Author Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, DY444 said: In 1980/1 I commuted from Derby to Birmingham for a while. My morning train was a Sheffield-Cardiff service which was 0650-ish something or other from Derby. It was formed of air cons and booked for a 47/4 however at least twice a week, and sometimes more frequently, it would turn up with an ER 31/4 on it. If it had been non-stop to New St it would probably have been ok but iirc it called at Burton, Tamworth, Wilnecote and Water Orton so the lack of grunt was very apparent when restarting from those stops. Needless to say it lost time hand over fist. As an aside, often unsuitable power turning up at New St would come off and Saltley would find something better. However I don't ever recall the 31 on my morning train coming off at New St and it worked through onto the WR. You know I think that those might be the trains that I originally saw pictures of as the name Water Orton does seem very familiar for some reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted June 13 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13 (edited) mmmmmmmm thats not strictly true, 31/4s have an eth alternator, the same fitted to 45/1s and and 47s (which is why 31s have an ETS index of 66) this did not take traction power, they were not like 47/4s and 33s where eth was derived from the main generator, even in those cases the losses on RHP were not as great as you think, and in addition to that it would also depend on the ETH load. Also in those cases the ETS is from separate windings so again wasn't taken from traction power. The theoretical reduction in traction power would come from increased mechanical loading on the engine based on Alternator and main generator output, bear in mind....the lower power a loco is and the larger the weight of the train...the longer that generator drags the engine back and the long it takes to get to a high enough speed where the current requirements issue a lower mechanical force. there are stories of drivers disabling eth on 45s and 47s in a vain attempt to climb hills faster or make up time but the effect on engine output at higher RPMs would have been minimal. Indeed there is no measurement for it in either tractive effort or indeed engine hp, whilst ETH is on. BR consider the RHP to be the same regardless or not if ETH is on. whilst an alternator at high output will translate to a mechanical load, the issue with 31s is squarely in the realm of the fact that you have a class 37 engine derated to 1400hp trying to shove the generator output through 4 traction motors in a package that is as heavy as 37 which itself has a higher engine output and 6 traction motors... the morale of the story is br have tried to use a type 2 on duties that dont suit it, and adding ETH didnt make it any better... 31s were not built for inter-regional expresses Edited June 13 by pheaton 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted June 13 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13 Type 2's used as type 3's, not really a recipe for success! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) 18 hours ago, pheaton said: mmmmmmmm thats not strictly true, 31/4s have an eth alternator, the same fitted to 45/1s and and 47s (which is why 31s have an ETS index of 66) this did not take traction power, they were not like 47/4s and 33s where eth was derived from the main generator, even in those cases the losses on RHP were not as great as you think, and in addition to that it would also depend on the ETH load. Also in those cases the ETS is from separate windings so again wasn't taken from traction power. The theoretical reduction in traction power would come from increased mechanical loading on the engine based on Alternator and main generator output, bear in mind....the lower power a loco is and the larger the weight of the train...the longer that generator drags the engine back and the long it takes to get to a high enough speed where the current requirements issue a lower mechanical force. there are stories of drivers disabling eth on 45s and 47s in a vain attempt to climb hills faster or make up time but the effect on engine output at higher RPMs would have been minimal. Indeed there is no measurement for it in either tractive effort or indeed engine hp, whilst ETH is on. BR consider the RHP to be the same regardless or not if ETH is on. whilst an alternator at high output will translate to a mechanical load, the issue with 31s is squarely in the realm of the fact that you have a class 37 engine derated to 1400hp trying to shove the generator output through 4 traction motors in a package that is as heavy as 37 which itself has a higher engine output and 6 traction motors... the morale of the story is br have tried to use a type 2 on duties that dont suit it, and adding ETH didnt make it any better... 31s were not built for inter-regional expresses 33s get there ETH from a separate ETH generator, as does 47401-420. All the other ETH 47s get their ETH supplied from a Brush alternator (BL100-30)the same as 31 and 45. Having worked on locos fitted with ETH and seen them on load banks the 4th does effect the traction output. The effect does depend on ETH load, on full ETH load it has very noticeable degrading of the traction power, especially on a 31. Regards the Hull/Leeds Brighton service, it was booked for the 31from Leeds to New Street, with the loco of the Hull portion staying at Sheffield for a later working, this loco had worked the Paddington forward for New Street ( fresh off Saltley) through to Hull. Edited June 14 by 45125 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted June 14 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 14 There was a train from Hull to Kings Cross on Sundays that could be found hauled by a pair of class 31 if the booked class 47 was unavailable. An electric (often class 89) took over at Doncaster: 31420 31448 by Philip Wheldale, on Flickr I believe it continued to run throughout the early days of the class 91 too. Steven B. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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