Class 60, By Accurascale

[Rhydgaled]

40 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I think you’ll see more duplication . Manufacturer X can’t afford for Y to have a monopoly with the most prevalent and popular diesel classes , you just have to have it in the range .

For AS, whatever wagons they produce next , I’m sure they can’t have a competitors loco pulling them , so that may be a guide to what is going to be built .

That doesn't seem to apply universally; for example Cavalex abandoned their IC225 project when Hornby announced their retooling. Thus Hornby has been allowed to retain their monopoly, although that is an electric not a diesel.

[rob D2]

6 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

That doesn't seem to apply universally; for example Cavalex abandoned their IC225 project when Hornby announced their retooling. Thus Hornby has been allowed to retain their monopoly, although that is an electric not a diesel.

Indeed, but as I said I think the thing is “ most prevalent and popular “, niche products like Electrics and EMUs, I doubt would bear a business case for duplication .

[ruggedpeak]

As the issue of duplication may rumble on for a while, I have with the Mods approval set up a thread to discuss duplication in the Miscellany section. This will avoid filling up model specific threads with duplication discussions

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, leavesontheline said:

 

All good points, yes.... as are your flip sides!

 

I would maybe add some other flip sides to your four original points too:

 

1. Back when there were two, maybe three big players in the 'field' then yes, you might be missing out on variety of releases when they both produce the same model but there are so many manufacturers releasing all sorts of models these days, all of generally very high standards, I think maybe this isn't the problem it once was?

 

2. Again, I think times have changed maybe? It seems these days there is always someone willing to take on quite risky projects, like KR Models as one example, even if the 'big boys' (or slightly bigger boys) are not? I know there are lots of loco classes not produced yet as I am sure Brian Macdermott would tell us but I am just wondering if, in reality, we have ever 'missed out' on something being produced directly because a model was duplicated? I guess we'll never know but in the past, 'risky' models weren't produced because the production runs were perhaps much bigger and manufacturing investment much higher? I'm guessing here but perhaps modern manufacturing techniques have lessened these risks slightly? At the end of the day it mostly comes down to supply and demand - If something is so obscure that no-one wants to make it, that's probably because no-one wants to buy it, rather than the manufacturers not having the resource because they are too busy duplicating someone else's model!

 

3. Yes, agreed that this could happen and I am sure there are cases where this has happened, but again I am struggling to think of one off the top of my head. Happy to be corrected on this though if someone can think of examples? Did DJ Models wind up because of duplication? I thought it was more a financial thing. I am trying to think of any other model railway manufacturer who has really suffered financially or even closed down, in recent years at least, because someone else duplicated their model? Doesn't apply to Hattons I feel?  I also think these days that the differences between the 'winning' product and the 'losing' product is so small, as standards are generally so high, that often the product an individual backs is down to personal preference of manufacturer and minor details rather than vast differences - much like your Blur/Oasis analogy. What might be someone's 'deal breaking' feature (or lack of) might be a non-event for someone else. I was also just wondering that fairly recently when the Bachmann retooled Class 37 came out at around the same time as Accurascale's brand new model, has either product 'won'? It is my favourite loco class but I couldn't pick my 'favourite' model out of the two, they both have their merits and both seem to sell well?

 

4. Yes, true, again possibly this has happened or does happen still but again I think times have changed recently? It seems like not that long ago Hornby had 'their' main factory/supplier in China, Bachmann had 'theirs' and I'm not really sure who the other manufacturers used in the Far East but you used to hear a lot about limited factory slot availability. These days (covid being the exception) there must be more factories available to produce this sort of model item, and in more countries? Surely all the 'new' manufacturers on the block aren't competing for the same factory time/space as the 'traditional' ones? The constant flow of brand new products from such a wide variety of credible manufacturers these days would suggest not! Mind you, every manufacturer seems to use a slightly different method or point in the development process to announce a new model these days and more often than not you don't really know how long you have actually been 'waiting' for until the model shows up!

 

As you say, I think it could even be good for both companies in this particular instance.

 

Yes , like Blur and Oasis and 'Britpop', or when a new housing development goes up and leads to more interest in the area and higher prices for existing houses!

 

I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere about a 'Tug of war' but its late and I can't think of it! A "war of Tugs" maybe? 😄 

 

P.S. Obviously, Blur were better 😉

 

P.P.S Sorry for going a bit off-topic here!

There's 'risk' and then there is 'risk'.  In KR's case the risk is fairly trivial because the consumer funds the model before seeing it and what is spent in order to bring the model to the consumer's attention can be trivial amounts.  The risk only gets a bit more expensive when you show a CAD, but even more so a 3-D print before you start taking advance payments.  Showing a photo of the prototype whatever costs virtually nothing.

 

So risk is reduced to minimal in any company which works entirely on pre-paid pre-orders before actually having anything to show.  Risk in crease once research has produced something tangible but that can be mitigated by pre-order payments.  But once a company starts selling through retail outlets, even in addition to own account pre-orders, the level of risk increases.

 

Duplication which didn't happen, i.e. A got wind of the fact that B was also working towards the same model and B stopped development because it had heard a whisper about A's work,  has definitely happened and models have either never appeared (yet) or only appeared years later in 00.  Similarly there have been cases where B heard what was happening at A and stopped work on their own similar project so possibly the consumer 'lost' what might have been the better of two competing models.

 

And while I don't think anyone has gone bust because of duplication there are definitely instances of companies losing sales and having to clear surplus at reduced prices or have ended up carrying a lot of unsold stock at a cost to their bottom line (although their own over-ordering from a factory might not have helped).

 

The problem now for companies is that developing a really sophisticated highly detailed model is a very expensive business and that increases financial risk if it is the company's or the bank's money which is being spent.  Doesn't matter quite so much if it is someone else's money but even that could well lead to reduced longer term sales because consumers have a choice of two, or more, examples.

 

But duplication and multiplication does create consumer choice and probably helps in some cases to keep down retail prices.  Coming back to this thread 'another Class 60' only means that there are potentially three  companies in the market to sell them.  That's nothing compared with  Class 47 models (although they haven't all been available at the same time) or even more so EE Type 3/Class 37 models where 'improving the breed' has led to some companies reissuing revised tooling of the Class more than once!

[leavesontheline]

On 07/06/2024 at 14:08, TravisM said:

For the love of god why?  Of all the diesel and electric loco's that are screaming out to be done (08/09, 40, 67, 81-84 to name but a few), why pick a Class 60?  I for one won't be buying one.

Your prayers on the 08/09 front may now have been answered?

[IOW O2]

17 minutes ago, leavesontheline said:

Your prayers on the 08/09 front may now have been answered?

Where?😜

[leavesontheline]

20 minutes ago, IOW O2 said:

Where?😜

Well, not in an Accurascale thread 😁 .... 'For now' anyway !

[leavesontheline]

Pre-order for 60065 placed! Eagerly awaiting further news of the DC Rail version ..... ☺️

[nightstar.train]

2 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

Where?😜

 

Bachmann have announced a new tool class 08/09. Looks spectacular with all variations catered for, loads of detail and working lights. Sound Deluxe models have auto uncoupling too. However they haven't announced liveries or price yet, they'll be announced with the Autumn announcement in August. I fear the price will be astronomical. 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

A little bit of love from the DEMU show.....

[Melton Works]

3 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

A little bit of love from the DEMU show.....

I'm quite liking the Loadhaul black👍🏻💯

[Roy Langridge]

19 minutes ago, Melton Works said:

I'm quite liking the Loadhaul black👍🏻💯

Somebody has too… 😉

 

A livery I always detested, but each to their own. 
 

Roy

[Melton Works]

2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Somebody has too… 😉

 

A livery I always detested, but each to their own. 
 

Roy

Fair play. Not a fan of porterbrook purple, but deltic sales made enough for a second run. Bit different to everything in various branded triple grey at the time.

[SRman]

3 hours ago, Melton Works said:

Fair play. Not a fan of porterbrook purple, but deltic sales made enough for a second run. Bit different to everything in various branded triple grey at the time.

 

Not only am I not a fan of Porterbrook purple, I ordered one of those Deltics! I thought the model looks spectacular, and it will complement the Bachmann 57 601 Mrs SRman bought me many years ago.

I think the reason I don't like the purple livery on the real things is that it fades very badly, having seen some of the Porterbrook BGs parked at Neville Hill in the past. The class 47 livery was not sympathetically applied, whereas the 57 was something quite different and the Deltic had it applied very sympathetically, maybe even tastefully, to its lines.

[Accurascale]

Our Class 60 stretching its legs and pulling power, this weekend on Gordon's Lane. 😍

 

22 loaded HYA cut-downs, no problem! 😎

[atom3624]

Any videos?

 

Al.

[Accurascale]

12 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Any videos?

 

Al.

There's one on our Facebook page. 😊

[classy52]

32 minutes ago, Accurascale said:

There's one on our Facebook page. 😊

 

Don't do Facebook, stick it on YouTube please.

[RailwayModeller927]

I said today "Don't get one, you don't model that era."

 

Literally 5 minutes later, I came back with two preorders for 60001 and 60100.

 

I swear, my wallet is just going to spontaneously combust the moment 60081 gets revealed.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Accurascale said:

 

 

Is that tamper an as-yet unannounced Accurascale project ?

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Is that tamper an as-yet unannounced Accurascale project ?

Its on the too do list hopefully..........

[Krieghoff]

Any announcement imminent for the DCRAIL version at all ?

 

just asking for a friend. 

[Krieghoff]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Is that tamper an as-yet unannounced Accurascale project ?

Now that would be AMAZING 

[D3489gibson]

14 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Is that tamper an as-yet unannounced Accurascale project ?

 

It's Greg Marshall's! He has a Balfour Beatty one as well. The Colas one is all singing with sound as well! 

 

Nathan...

[E100]

I'm going to cross post this to both threads as I think answers may be useful.

 

As a very satisfied customer of a fair few Accurascale models (55, 2 37's and a 92 along with some coaches and plenty more on order) but also love my 56008 this is a hard decision. Whilst there's been the occasional niggle with the 37's (speakers) and 55 (chains naturally - good job on fixing these for the next batch) they are superb. The 92 with the exception of the pantograph angle when down needing adjustment is IMO the finest of the lot and therefore gives me a lot of confidence in the class 60 offering. 

 

On the flipside my Cavalex 56008 is an exceptional model with a solid feel unmatched to date and have zero issues (note I don't have SLW models).

 

I think 60001 will be my rule 1 class 60. They will have needed to test on the Fort William Alcan flow of course! I therefore find myself trying to weigh up the benefits of each. So are there any other factors to consider than those below:

• Slightly lower price for Accurascale inc. rewards
• Very occasional niggles with previous Accurascale locos (granted it has allowed support to be given which has been very good for me a least)
• Accurascale's higher weight
• Cavalex's floating axle solution (very conscious of the various debates around this - I'll just state this as a factor without showing my hand and doesn't the debate need reopening)
• Accurascale's box exclusive artwork is exceptional unless Cavalex plan to follow suit which I'm sure will also be good. The 56 box is very nice as is anyway but the exclusives nudge it currently.
• Cavalex's bufferbeam (bit of gimmick for me but understand those who want it)
• I have no desire for EM/P4 so whilst I think Cavalex have announced more support though providing wheelsets unless I am mistaken I don't think Accurascale have said they will, yet at least.

Is there anything else I should consider and I welcome input from the team to highlight their USP's. I'm not asking for opinions (as those can be debated for

time immemorial) but more just key factors to consider such as those above that differentiate between the two.

 

Both teams are genuinely lovely to chat to at shows and on here and IMO are very worthy of our support. I'd hope we can all agree that they are at great at engaging with modellers and both design teams are clearly very passionate about class 60's which comes across in the videos and info put out.