Class 60, By Accurascale

[Foden]

Personally speaking, I couldn't give a toss about the duplication. I've got both an Accurascale 66 and a Cavalex 56, they're both fine models from two manufacturers I think very highly of, so I'm delighted to see both making an extensive range of a class I find particularly appealing from which to choose.

 

I've got two on order from Cavalex, I'm no less excited about them after seeing this announcement than I was before, and I'll shortly be placing an order for another from Accurascale now too.

Whilst I absolutely understand the frustration that duplication brings to people, particularly those who are 'patiently' waiting for other classes to get their turn, the flip side to that coin is the choice it also gives people who are interested in that particular class of loco.

For some of us who don't have the time/skill/bravery to model variations or repaint or renumber locos, (or just don't want to), this can also be good news. It doesn't seem like too long ago some of us were waiting over a decade for a certain other manufacturer to release a loco they had established in their catalogue in a livery we actually wanted, never mind the potential to buy the same livery with different running numbers if so desired.

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Genuine question, but why ?

How is silent DCC a benefit over DC ?

 

I could imagine coupling up to a double header but what else, beyond saving on isolating track etc.

 

4 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

Dcc is a lot simpler to wire which is one of the reasons that it was initially sold for.  Particularly if you want 'whole layout' control where u bring together points, signals, etc

 

It's also pretty cool to have all the switchable light settings and being able to configure double heading etc.

 

There's lots of benefits, even without sound, over standard DC.  

DCC provides a lot more control and animation for your models.

Imagine your driver trudging up the ballast to climb onto his loco.  Obviously sound can play a big part in this but even if there is no sound, lighting can still play a big part , more so with more modern stuff. The driver puts the battery switch in then climbs into the cab and turns the cab lights and engine room lights on, then moves the master controller from "off" to "engine only" and presses the start button. As the generator draws power from the battery to turn the engine over the lights momentarily dim / flicker. The compressors cut in and the loco commences to charge its air reservoirs. Meanwhile the driver is carrying out the prep, puts tail lights on and turns the cab and engine room lights off and walks to the other end, where he climbs up and put those cab lights on and sets up whatever lighting is required on the leading end.  Whe nthe driver is ready to move or gets the signal, the cab lights are turned off and maybe the headlight turns on and the loco moves. 

 

Admittedly a sound decoder is required for the sounds, but the lighting should be playable on a normal "silent" decoder. Current sound decoders even have sounds like the footplate turning the squeaky handbrake wheel and even the relays clicking as switches are thrown in the cabs. So DCC is about animation as well as control. 

[Covkid]

16 minutes ago, Foden said:

Personally speaking, I couldn't give a toss about the duplication. I've got both an Accurascale 66 and a Cavalex 56, they're both fine models from two manufacturers I think very highly of, so I'm delighted to see both making an extensive range of a class I find particularly appealing from which to choose.

 

I've got two on order from Cavalex, I'm no less excited about them after seeing this announcement than I was before, and I'll shortly be placing an order for another from Accurascale now too.

Whilst I absolutely understand the frustration that duplication brings to people, particularly those who are 'patiently' waiting for other classes to get their turn, the flip side to that coin is the choice it also gives people who are interested in that particular class of loco.

For some of us who don't have the time/skill/bravery to model variations or repaint or renumber locos, (or just don't want to), this can also be good news. It doesn't seem like too long ago some of us were waiting over a decade for a certain other manufacturer to release a loco they had established in their catalogue in a livery we actually wanted, never mind the potential to buy the same livery with different running numbers if so desired.

I agree. The fact that all the main line diesels are now available in 4mm scale means a great deal, and we are now entering the phase where the initial 20 year old products are being updated. In one sense it really doesnt matter to the customer simply because they either buy the product or they don't.  We have more or less passed the era where crowd funding looked like the only way of getting the desired model, in modern terms anyway.  Admittedly Revolution and Rapido have offered the chance to express interest in a model where take up depends on enough interest being committed, but the consumer is offered a very binary action - do or don't.  

[97403_Ixion]

Really pleased to hear the news this morning about the Accurascale Class 60 and see the offerings online!

 

I wish Accurascale every success and see that between all the market options, the customer is really being spoilt.

 

I suppose I was half right in the guesses thread that it complements their 'Powering Britain' theme and freight wagon ranges.  Have to admit, I hadn't realised the other manufacturer had only announced 1.5 years ago, so by then a fair bit will have already been done on both sides, so fair play to Accurascale for staying put and having something physical to show too, as well as providing additional running numbers.  I've had lots of other serious issues in life to deal with over the last few years, so I am tending to lose track of time lately but thankfully another good thing to look forward to, so I'm pleased!

 

Glad to see 60001 is on the cards though...  I was going to get a Hornby 60002 but may delay those plans... maybe...

Also pleased to see another DCR to be released on the market as I had missed out on the Key Model World one.

 

Interesting to read there are to be four Exclusives in the launch range, presumably one being DCR 60055 and one being Construction Sector 60001.  With a charity one mentioned, perhaps that relates to the DCR 60055 'Thomas Barnardo' as one of the four or maybe even 60074 'Teenage Spirit'... in any case I will definitely try to support it, whatever it is.

 

I keep looking at the Transrail one... I have always liked that livery and it could potentially double up with the other offering from Ultimate Model Railways to make a decent pairing?!

 

Exciting times!

Ixion.

[Pmorgancym]

7 hours ago, The Meerkat said:

does the 60 have rotating axle boxes like the 66??

Eriely predicting a Sam's Trains critisim of the model 'Not having rotating axle boxes like the 66, seems like a backwards step'

[97406]

One area the Accurascale 60 wins hands down is the price and I wonder if Cavalex will revise theirs in the light of this. Pioneer 60001 would be best for the late 80s and a good excuse to run a pristine sector livery loco but one 60 is definitely enough for me so it’s represented in the fleet. I feel it sensible take a little time on deciding which way to go on a class that’s interesting and relevant to me but just doesn’t stir the blood as much as its predecessors.

[Wayne 56089]

Pre ordered 007 in loadhaul and 015 in the rarely modelled transrail livery. 
 

I have no preference to either side, I own 4 Cavalex 56s and they are simply stunning but I also own an Accurascale 37 ( and have owned 3 others) and a Deltic and think the same of them. 
 

For me it was a simple choice of numbers, 007 is a rarity now days that it’s UN-NAMED! A trait that’s rare nowadays and I prefer bogstandard non named workhorses!! And 015 was a simple choice as I’ve had it for haulage on railtour in that livery. If Cavalex would have done these 2 I would have allready pre ordered theirs!! 
 

I hope both manufacturers sell out both their allocations and ideally if Cavalex could tackle the 58 while Accurascale can finally deliver a definative Peak. 

[97406]

6 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

DCC provides a lot more control and animation for your models.

Imagine your driver trudging up the ballast to climb onto his loco.  Obviously sound can play a big part in this but even if there is no sound, lighting can still play a big part , more so with more modern stuff. The driver puts the battery switch in then climbs into the cab and turns the cab lights and engine room lights on, then moves the master controller from "off" to "engine only" and presses the start button. As the generator draws power from the battery to turn the engine over the lights momentarily dim / flicker. The compressors cut in and the loco commences to charge its air reservoirs. Meanwhile the driver is carrying out the prep, puts tail lights on and turns the cab and engine room lights off and walks to the other end, where he climbs up and put those cab lights on and sets up whatever lighting is required on the leading end.  Whe nthe driver is ready to move or gets the signal, the cab lights are turned off and maybe the headlight turns on and the loco moves. 

 

Admittedly a sound decoder is required for the sounds, but the lighting should be playable on a normal "silent" decoder. Current sound decoders even have sounds like the footplate turning the squeaky handbrake wheel and even the relays clicking as switches are thrown in the cabs. So DCC is about animation as well as control. 

 

For me the main benefit from converting to DCC was being able to have multiple locos stationary with their lights on and then being able to photograph them. Low aperture and long exposure for a decent depth of field. I converted my fleet to DCC first then explored sound after that, even though you don’t need DCC to have basic sound on a loco as I found out during the process.

 

Wiring the layout is simpler too, though not so much on the section of layout that had isolating sections.

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Genuine question, but why ?

How is silent DCC a benefit over DC ?

 

I could imagine coupling up to a double header but what else, beyond saving on isolating track etc.

 

So much more control with DCC in comparison to DC.

The independent working light functions, stacking locos on the TMD without isolating sections, running up to the rear of a train for banking duties, lights off on second loco when double heading etc

[Wayne 56089]

Running in general is better on DCC, you don’t get the drop off in speed when going round corners etc. 

[rob D2]

8 hours ago, The Meerkat said:

also  can i ask the people with more knowledge then i do 

 

i can only afford one set class 60, so which one is more promising,  the AS one or cavalex?????

I don’t think it’s good manners to come on a manufacturer’s thread and ask if theirs or the competition is better .

[andyman7]

 

10 hours ago, ColinB said:

Hornby only have themselves to blame, they design a model then do nothing to it for 20 years. A lot of their current models on offer meet that criteria, on the 8F they couldn't even be bothered to fit the right detailed smokebox door and then charge a fortune for the privilege. The only changes they make is for their HM7000 decoders but even then they don't do it properly. The Hornby model is about 20% more than the two competitors and the two competitor locos have more features. I have read that Hornby could put their class 60 into their Railroad range, but it is too expensive to make to do that. Just analyse the Railroad diesel mechanisms, they are all much simpler. I suspect that they will just slowly phase it out or hope their two competitors go bust. 

Or maybe it just doesn't matter to them? As you say the 60 is 20 years old, so they've made a good return on it. When it stops selling, I guess they'll retire it. I'm also pretty sure any business plan they have isn't reliant on competitors going bust. 

[adb968008]

On 07/06/2024 at 22:59, Covkid said:

 

Thanks for that Simon.  Interesting.  I didn't realise. 

But did many locos actually go into diagrammed revenue service with the two piece windows.  I remember there being a pretty substantial training programme, and remember some drivers having kittens on seeing the diagnostic panel in the engine room. A sea of red LEDs but actually very few lit, and if those were constant they were apparently nothing to worry about as they had already been flagged for the maintenance staff.  

yes..see below

 

 

 

On 07/06/2024 at 21:35, ColinB said:

Hornby only have themselves to blame, they design a model then do nothing to it for 20 years. A lot of their current models on offer meet that criteria, on the 8F they couldn't even be bothered to fit the right detailed smokebox door and then charge a fortune for the privilege. The only changes they make is for their HM7000 decoders but even then they don't do it properly. The Hornby model is about 20% more than the two competitors and the two competitor locos have more features. I have read that Hornby could put their class 60 into their Railroad range, but it is too expensive to make to do that. Just analyse the Railroad diesel mechanisms, they are all much simpler. I suspect that they will just slowly phase it out or hope their two competitors go bust. 

I was buying discounted 60015 for £100 just before covid, to renumber.

Then suddenly it was £220+.

 

 

Edited September 12 by adb968008

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

DCC provides a lot more control and animation for your models.

Imagine your driver trudging up the ballast to climb onto his loco.  Obviously sound can play a big part in this but even if there is no sound, lighting can still play a big part , more so with more modern stuff. The driver puts the battery switch in then climbs into the cab and turns the cab lights and engine room lights on, then moves the master controller from "off" to "engine only" and presses the start button. As the generator draws power from the battery to turn the engine over the lights momentarily dim / flicker. The compressors cut in and the loco commences to charge its air reservoirs. Meanwhile the driver is carrying out the prep, puts tail lights on and turns the cab and engine room lights off and walks to the other end, where he climbs up and put those cab lights on and sets up whatever lighting is required on the leading end.  Whe nthe driver is ready to move or gets the signal, the cab lights are turned off and maybe the headlight turns on and the loco moves. 

 

Admittedly a sound decoder is required for the sounds, but the lighting should be playable on a normal "silent" decoder. Current sound decoders even have sounds like the footplate turning the squeaky handbrake wheel and even the relays clicking as switches are thrown in the cabs. So DCC is about animation as well as control. 

I get that, and thats sound.

 

What i’m missing is the benefit of DCC but not having sound.

 

it was in response to a question up thread requesting DCC but without sound fitted locos, which to me felt like a dis-benefit.

 

I stick with DC because Ive always done it that way. I have wiring blocks in 4 corners which I can activate / deactivate my track sections much like how signal boxes work.

 

I dont have sound on DC which is my only miss (but I use a bluetooth speaker from my phone and have an extensive set of recordings, if I ever stop working i’ll write some code to make it like DCC).

 

Whilst I can see the attraction of DCC sound, I dont really see why going for quiet DCC makes sense over DC. From what ive seen wiring DC is a one time job, configuring DCC chips is a job for life so may as well buy the sheep instead of the lamb and buy sound.

 

60’s are too quiet in my opinion anyway.. they sound like my washing machine… its a known fact that every 25 left Derby with a loose spanner in the crankcase to make that knackered rattling sound. 🙂

Edited June 8 by adb968008

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, Covkid said:

I agree. The fact that all the main line diesels are now available in 4mm scale means a great deal, and we are now entering the phase where the initial 20 year old products are being updated. In one sense it really doesnt matter to the customer simply because they either buy the product or they don't.  We have more or less passed the era where crowd funding looked like the only way of getting the desired model, in modern terms anyway.  Admittedly Revolution and Rapido have offered the chance to express interest in a model where take up depends on enough interest being committed, but the consumer is offered a very binary action - do or don't.  

I can only recall once a manufacturer actually asking the modeller what they wanted them to make…

 

That was SLW with the voting options on the 24/1s launched back in April 2017…

 

But 7 years were still waiting them to be delivered today, and the price is £50 a head higher. My guess is Bachmann will pip them at the post with the IS headlight versions, and as these things go in waves, the Heljan IS 26’s will show up in paralell, effectively making that 7 year old vote pointless.

 

That said 7+ years is becoming a norm from initial announcement to delivery for a number of models … D600, Railmotor,cl21/29, 158, 59, slw 24/1, Bachmann 25 all have exceeded the 7 year threshold.

The Realtrack 142 is approaching 8 years now since announcement, 4 years since open orderbook. There quite a lot out there passing the 3-4 year mark now still awaiting delivery.

Edited June 8 by adb968008
Clarification on timeline

[97406]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

60’s are too quiet in my opinion anyway.. they sound like my washing machine… its a known fact that every 25 left Derby with a loose spanner in the crankcase to make that knackered rattling sound. 🙂

 

The modern scourge of the silencer! 

[GRUNFOS]

I always liked seeing this.

 

[adb968008]

Always thought a 60 in Dutch would look good.

 

if any get revived for HS2 construction traffic, can someone tap GBRF up for a Dutchie.

[Bryn_Bach_Railway]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

What i’m missing is the benefit of DCC but not having sound.

 

I think it fully depends on what is being modelled, if your just modelling a mainline and you done often have trains stopped on-scene then silent DCC does not really hold much benefit over DC. However if a depot scene or passing loops etc are being modelled, then you often see locos sat not moving with lights on which can't be replicated on DC but can be on silent DCC. as well as not needing to worry about if a loco is sitting in just a single block or over 2.

 

Also once you have your general settings decided, for the most part programming decoders for new locos is a 10-20 minute job at most. especially if its a pre-programmed chip from the manufacturer. Silent DCC Fitted models just remove the potential for the user's DCC decoder not working as expected in the model, which no one wants.

 

Personally silent DCC gives me the big advantage of I just pick a loco and start driving it. no need to worry about making sure only its track is powered so nothing else starts moving that shouldn't. especially with multiple locos of varying lengths on the same block or siding. DC and isolations is all good if you know the lengths of what will be in each block or siding etc, or are happy living with the restrictions that isolating blocks give you. silent DCC removes the set restrictions of isolating blocks, and so give more freedom for the user allowing sidings to have multiple uses while still only needing the 2 basic DCC feeder wires.

 

The other big thing I like is I can set every loco to have identical speed tables, so a setting of 60 on my controller will always result In all locos running the same speed regardless of manufacturer etc. 

 

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

configuring DCC chips is a job for life so may as well buy the sheep instead of the lamb and buy sound.

 

Theres also about a £70 difference in silent DCC vs DCC Sound. over just a fleet of 3 or 4, thats already the difference of an extra loco + Decoder. I'd personally rather have that extra loco as running sound locos continuously for a while eventually just becomes background noise. 

 

Even silent, DCC effectively gives each train its own driver. Meaning you can get near perfect replication of the real world, without needing to worry about wring up block sections. DC however regardless of how many block sections you have your still just driving the track. if you wanted to stage a loco brake down and rescue loco attending and subsequently towing, DC means you have to stage this on the border of a isolating block join. DCC allows you to do this anywhere on the layout, without that restriction. so it goes back to my earlier point of it depends what you wish to model, and if your happy with having some fixed restrictions the DC is great. if you don't want any restictions other than physics itself, then DCC provides that. both have their benefits and drawbacks but for me DCC is suits what I want pretty much perfectly, and gives customisation on top of that too. 

[ColinB]

53 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

Or maybe it just doesn't matter to them? As you say the 60 is 20 years old, so they've made a good return on it. When it stops selling, I guess they'll retire it. I'm also pretty sure any business plan they have isn't reliant on competitors going bust. 

No of course it isn't, that was a light hearted comment. With steam based models they can get away with it, very limited competition, modern image they are really up against it. A lot of the upgrades like on lighting are just a PCB change which it cheap and easy to implement but on say models like the class 87 they just can't be bothered and then we have those plastic pantographs they seem to like. 

[ruggedpeak]

Can I suggest the DCC discussion moves into the DCC section as there is nothing new in it and its not directly relevant to the Accura 60 launch?

[RP82]

Tempted with 007 in Loadhaul, but holding back with everything crossed and hoping 006 in BSC blue is announced...

[wombatofludham]

On 07/06/2024 at 12:08, Accurascale Fran said:

I did inform the wealthy backer of the other Class 60 project almost 2 years ago that we were working on a 60, but was not told about the other project and only found out just before their announcement was made. By that time we had a tooled sample, so it was too late. He said he felt the market could sustain both, and he knows the market well. So, with that in mind, I dont think either small company (it's worth remembering that we are the true definition of that too) will be "cream crackered".

 

I must admit to having been slightly disappointed at first to hear of another Class 60 but this comment is more reassuring.  Cavalex are up there with Accurascale in delivering quality at fair prices and I'll probably now get two 60s instead of just the Cavalex example, so in my case the announcement has "grown the market"!  

I just hope that a 58 isn't about to get a head to head battle as they were fewer in number albeit bedecked in a rainbow of liveries during their lifespan.
 

[AndrewB7585]

 

[25901]

adb

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Always thought a 60 in Dutch would look good.

I still remember the sh@t storm you and me started when the Loadhaul 60s came out at the Doncaster Open Day and the fun we had with Replica Railways.

Day two of the event and we had Loadhaul 60s on the stall, still have some "Roseberry Toppings" some where