Class 60, By Accurascale

[Accurascale Fran]

20 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Ah just another level of stagnation? 😆 So what is the ultimate spec? Wobbly sheet metal panels would be my least expected to see ‘feature’. 
Accurascale have the talent but is it their spec as it looks spookily similar to what others like Cavalex, PI & Rapido are achieving? 
I can see the point of upgrading from the good Hornby model but I doubt there’ll be much difference with the Cavalex one, apart from production numbers allowing the margin to fall below the 50 by £20 😉

 

Hi Paul,

 

Just on this, it's the same spec as our IRM A Class and Class 55 Deltic, both of which came out several years ago now, and can also be found in the Class 92, 37, 66 and forthcoming Class 31.

 

As for the 50 price difference, a combination of electrically operating roof fan and sterling being in the gutter when we committed to it did not help. The 60 for instance is the same price as our 66, 37 and Deltic. 

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[JSpencer]

What is pretty amazing is that the real thing took 18 months from conception to hitting the rails. The model needs at least twice that 😅

[PaulRhB]

9 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

it will not be "hikes" to gouge those who have supported us.

 

Thank you for that assurance 😉 It’s an issue an I have no doubt some work has been done 18 months ago but £100,000? I hope you see where I’m coming from though. We know you also have a strong backer and committing to the large runs allows you to be very competitive on price, but after the recent shenanigans with Hornby I see echoes of the same in so much repetition. 

 

9 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

I know it's easy to look at the "duplication" word and go negative, but there is also the benefits of customer choice, price competition etc too. You only have to look at the Class 31 to see that. 

Yes all good points but I’d like to see more of the innovation in making models less delicate or maybe developing boxes that double as loco carriers that are easy to use as stock boxes for shows too. Your huge boxes are great for protection in the post but they’ve all ended up in the garage as there’s not enough room in the house. Making the inner box with the foam useful to store in a drawer or stock box would be an equally useful development to the lift off roof panels. 

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

There would still be various points in the development where either party could have decided there was too much risk of duplication and divert resources elsewhere. I'm no fanboi of Cavalex or AS (or any other manufacturer) , but I don't buy into the "this duplication was inevitable" narrative.

The critical elements are always going to be time and money.  Research, and ebven producing the original CADs are really 'only' about 4 or 5 figure sums.  Ok these 4 and 5 figure sums gradually mount up but when. you move into tooling you are looking at potentially having to throw away 6 figure sums and any 6 figure number is going to make a very big hole in any company's business plan and finances.

 

Very often there are whispers and hints about directly competing models coming from elsewhere and sometimes those hints are in time to allow a company to back out with minimal cost impact, sometimes they come too late to allow that back out.  There have even been instances, to my knowledge, where both companies backed out and instead of competing models the end customer didn't get either of them and they stayed on the wish lists for years or are still there today.

 

Whatever the various companies seem to do the end result is that at least according to 'somebody' they have got it wrong - either because of announcing a competing model, or announcing the 'wrong' model, or not announcing the 'right' model.  If any of us think we're cleverer than those in the business we have a simple answer - assuming we can actually find a Bank manager to ask if we can have a loan (against the value of our home) to fund our dream.  Or - as some do - we rely on anybody but ourselves to pay for our dream by putting their money where our mouths are (which can sometimes end in tears of varying kinds)

[The Stationmaster]

10 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

What is pretty amazing is that the real thing took 18 months from conception to hitting the rails. The model needs at least twice that 😅

And then took as long, if not longer, to get it working sufficiently reliably and obtain, by testing,  all the data need to allow it to be used in everyday traffic.  All those of us in freight planning kept on asking was 'when are these locos going to be released for traffic use?'  (While at teh same time the Class 59 worked straight out of the box.)

[adb968008]

Just now, Soul Survivor said:

Nope! Because Bachmann announced their newly tooled 37 & 31 after Accurascale had released details of theirs. As for the Class 50, I don’t recall Hornby doing any retooling of their existing model. Anyhow, I think you missed the point of my post - it was just a cheeky suggestion to nudge Accurascale into producing a Class 40 even though another manufacturer has announced a newly tooled version.

Dont forget another small company has announced a 40 too. Funny that not many talk about it, positively anyway… And instead request Accurascale make it.. That speaks volumes.

 

Difficult for me, 60’s never been overly high on my list, ive felt the Hornby one was ok.

I’d already decided with the Cavalex one a few months back, my interest was more about being upto date than replacing my existing ones, hence ordered two DCR 60029 and one Sonia. As these are both with deposits attached, thats a sale done… funny thing my second 60029 was to become 60055.

 

At the moment i’m not sure whats for me here, with either of the models.

What i’d really like is some Manchester Binliner wagons for them to pull.

 

 

 

And note in this picture… 60009 is running with two piece not three piece cab windows on the drivers side.

60074 / 5 brand new awaiting completion at Brush works, shows the differing cab windows at each end.

 

more manchester waste behind an SP based brand new Construction sector class 60.

 

60016 also when new at SP in Wigan.

 

I guess for me class 60’s are going to be love at first sight, rather than pictures in a dating app… lets see what emerges.

 

 

 

 

[MidlandRed]

Given the weight of this model, its requirement to pull heavy trains etc, I haven’t seen any mention of the motor? Will this be a powerful 5 pole motor to match that used in your new 66 class loco, and your competitor’s offerings? 

Edited June 7 by MidlandRed

[IOW O2]

36 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

...........So what is the ultimate spec? 

Interesting perspective.  When I was at Alley Pally, Alex from Cavalex said to a few of us there, that theirs would be the ultimate, also it would have a unique feature that has not been on a model before and it will blow our socks off!    !!!!!!!!!

 

Unfortunately despite many probes by those there, he said they would not expand on this until nearer delivery time so a rival didn't do it as well.  As I said earlier battle begins.

[atom3624]

60 081 please ........................

[dj_crisp]

I guess we as consumers now have plenty of choice.

 

Personally I'm sticking with my Hornby version as that's ok for me. With this release I'm seeing it more of a duplication of the Hornby model tbh as on face value it has several of their misinterpretations. Will see if that's the camera distortion or not when I see it on one of the exhibitions.

 

As things stand the ultimate 60 looks like the Cavalex version to me.

 

 

[97406]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Dont forget another small company has announced a 40 too. Funny that not many talk about it, positively anyway… And instead request Accurascale make it.. That speaks volumes.

 

Well, let’s put it this way. I bought and paid for my first Class 37 on the strength of the Accurascale CAD renders. 

[McC]

12 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Given the weight of this model, its requirement to pull heavy trains etc, I haven’t seen any mention of the motor? Will this be a powerful 5 pole motor to match that used in your new 66 class loco, and your competitor’s offerings? 

 

As per the Class 66, a super powerful, clean pulling motor, backed by Stay Alive bank included in all models. 

[Northerngirl]

I'm glad we still haven't got any more variety, so useful to have 3 copies of the same model 

[Damo666]

1 hour ago, Temeraire said:

Or perhaps all part of the plan for market domination and don’t care who they tread on to get there is another way of looking at it?

Wow, how we love to knock the new guy, then put them on a pedestal only to kick it away.

 

When Accurascale first hit the scene, I remember those saying it’s another new chancer on the block, just like DJM. All talk and nothing to show. They’ll take your money and be gone.

Then the first Accurascale models started to appear and at great price points, with lots of features. Us modellers, after been ignored by the big names with mediocre models or old tooling in new liveries, now had Accurascale which set new standards, and we all (or at least most of us) were grateful. The complacency demonstrated by other manufacturers with high prices for old moulds was been tested.

 

I cannot believe that, in such a short time, people are now starting to knock them down with claims that they are going to run roughshod (“don’t care who they tread on”), with no evidence.

 

A ‘company’ has recently announced a new model, one which I’m guessing has been in planning for, say, 3 years. Another company has also announced the same model. Assuming that they both kept the development secret for commercial reasons, it is not surprising that we modellers see such announcements relatively close to each other. That’s just the way the business model works. Announce it too soon, and you may have a big red manufacturer trying to saturate the market with more of it’s old models.

 

Oh, and in my previous paragraph, feel free to substitute Cavalax and Accurascale as either company, it works both ways.

 

I wish both companies well.

Edited June 7 by Damo666
Spelling of word

[adb968008]

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And then took as long, if not longer, to get it working sufficiently reliably and obtain, by testing,  all the data need to allow it to be used in everyday traffic.  All those of us in freight planning kept on asking was 'when are these locos going to be released for traffic use?'  (While at teh same time the Class 59 worked straight out of the box.)

Yes but look at the big picture..

 

The class 59 was a 40 year old end of life product with over 4000 examples made.

The class 59 is basically the bonnet of an SD40-2 with class 58 cabs either end, and the 58 cab was a proven design too.

 

The class 60 was ground up new.

 

 

[MidlandRed]

4 minutes ago, McC said:

 

As per the Class 66, a super powerful, clean pulling motor, backed by Stay Alive bank included in all models. 

 

That’s good to hear. I was pleasantly surprised when the spec of the 66 was announced but had then thought there was a possibility it was because of what was inherited from Hattons. Excellent if you’re extending this across to the 60.
 

On a lighter note, I’m fully expecting ‘state of the art’ Black 5 and class 25s to be announced in the coming months 😉😀🤣

[jonnyuk]

Real shame it’s a model already in the making by another newer manufacturer, 

detail wise looks nothing between them, the price though makes a huge difference,  for me the Hornby version will do, with the hm7000 chips does all it needs to do.

id love to be a fly on the wall when AS have their strategic planning meetings when it comes to product roadmaps and margins on said product. To be cheaper than anyone else repeatedly on locomotives they must be super efficient with really low operating costs or playing the long came, pick off all the low hanging fruit giving them 10 years of releases, price low to penetrate the market and under cut, become the go to supplier for your large number prototype locomotives, leaving the obscure , high risk, low number prototypes to others.

perfect business sense. Must have patient backers to see it through.

[JSpencer]

Ok, they explained it and this is clearly a case of "Dammed if they do and dammed if they don't".

 

I can see this ending with the government needing to create laws whereby we will vote on the models we want, the manufacturers all put out a spec, we vote for the two best, they make it and we buy none of them! 

 

Now let's enjoy the 60s...

Edited June 7 by JSpencer

[farren]

Ohh my this is interesting, I was planning on getting the Cavalex 60, just need to finish paying for the Bachmann 31s. But now I might have to get 2 60s. Both companies do excellent models at a reasonable prices . So I don’t see the problem, ok tell a lie the bank manager might say I have a problem! 

[JSpencer]

2 minutes ago, farren said:

Ohh my this is interesting, I was planning on getting the Cavalex 60, just need to finish paying for the Bachmann 31s. But now I might have to get 2 60s. Both companies do excellent models at a reasonable prices . So I don’t see the problem, ok tell a lie the bank manager might say I have a problem! 

 

Fire the bank manager, you don't need that sort of negativity in your life.

[Islesy]

1 hour ago, Temeraire said:

Or perhaps all part of the plan for market domination and don’t care who they tread on to get there is another way of looking at it?

Please, let's keep this realistic. Do you really think I would have left my old job with a manufacturer who did just that, to join another that did that? Or @Steve Purves? We're here to produce the models we want to see, that work with our range of existing (and forthcoming) models and to enjoy ourselves while doing so.

In the future there'll be models that duplicate some that are already on the market, and many, many more that aren't.

[scottystitch]

7 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

Assuming that they both kept the development secret for commercial reasons, 

I have no skin in this game at all, but according to Fran, there was a breakdown of secrecy..:

53 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

I did inform the wealthy backer of the other Class 60 project almost 2 years ago that we were working on a 60, but was not told about the other project and only found out just before their announcement was made. By that time we had a tooled sample, so it was too late. He said he felt the market could sustain both, and he knows the market well. 

 

 

 

Fran 

 

...which would indicate that any "blame" (if that's what people are apportioning) for duplication, isn't entirely fairly to be lain at Accurascale's door.  at the very least, the other party knew about the AS project.

 

For clarity I have no opinion on the duplication issue.

 

best

Scott.

[AY Mod]

31 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I guess for me class 60’s are going to be love at first sight, rather than pictures in a dating app

 

RMweb in a nutshell; old and middle-aged men lusting after attractive models. Onlyrotatingfans.com

[Steve Purves]

Just now, Islesy said:

Please, let's keep this realistic. Do you really think I would have left my old job with a manufacturer who did just that, to join another that did that? Or @Steve Purves? We're here to produce the models we want to see, that work with our range of existing (and forthcoming) models and to enjoy ourselves while doing so.

In the future there'll be models that duplicate some that are already on the market, and many, many more that aren't.

 

To reiterate this, Paul is 100% correct. The Class 60 is something that has been close to my heart for many years and as some of my ex colleagues at Bachmann would attest, something I wanted to do long before I came here to Accurascale.

Like many people, I saw them delivered, I saw them tested, I cabbed a few "new" locos back in the 90s as they came through Leicester for testing and acceptance and a very good friend of mine worked for Brush at the time making things "work". Coupled to that, I started my professional career after leaving school at Toton TMD with EWS and worked on many members of the class as a fitter I knew that when my time with the class 60 project came around I would be able to call on information from many sources with regard to options and modifications (some are previously undocumented) and be able to produce a model that could really define the class. I hope to have achieved that and hope that people realise this isn't an overnight decision and something that's been in the oven for the full 90 minutes at 200 degrees. 

I hope to bring lots more information about Class 60 into the public domain over the rest of the production cycle in order to reinforce what a wonderful locomotive Class 60 really is!

Best Regards

Steve

[lego legs]

I have a few pre-orders for Cavalex’s 60 already in. I’ll be ordering some from Accurascale too. I love 60s and would prefer there wasn’t duplication (mainly for my bank accounts health) but I believe competition is good for customers. 

Edited June 7 by lego legs