Track & board joints

[Olive_Green1923]

Hi there,

 

I am in the early stages of building my first O gauge layout. I will be using Peco track with C&L turnouts, so the sleepers will be 3mm thick. I would have preferred to use C&L flexi track, but I wanted to keep things as affordable as possible. The track will be laid on 1.5mm cork. The layout is end-to-end with only some very light curves between the turnouts.
 

A couple of questions are niggling me before I proceed:

 

Board joints: I plan to use copper clad sleepers, but it seems they can only be obtained in 1.6mm. Do people tend to double up to get to 3mm? Or do I put an extra layer of cork down to make up the difference? (So 3mm of cork + 1.6mm copper clad sleeper)?

 

Track joints: I plan to glue the track down,

with the C&L H-section fishplates between all rail joints. My question is will both the glue and H fishplates be sufficient to keep the track joints solid, or should something else be used to avoid any play at the joints? I may be overthinking this latter issue and my suggested method may be sufficient (?).

 

Thanks in advance.

[Ray H]

You could pad out the extra depth to match the sleepers using the relevant thickness of plasticard. You will need to do something similar to pad out the points so the rail tops matches the flexi-track.

 

I've never had a problem with rail joiners not keeping track in line/level. You could solder the (metal) rail joiners to the rails if you're worried and could also (super) glue insulated rail joiners to the rails - sorry, I'm not familiar with their H section fishplates.

[7mmin7foot]

On mine I doubled up the copper clad sleepers , but you need to really score the surfaces before glueing them together. ( I used cyano)

They were still a slither under the peco sleeper height on mine, so I just used some card again glued to the scored underside of copper clad and direct to the ply boards.

See photo.

 

Don't forget its not just sleeper height, the peco chairs lift the track slightly higher too. so its the finished rail height you need to be looking as the datum point.

Mine have set solid and will never move.

Probably lots of other ways too... but this  worked for me. Simple is often the easiest and best way in my experience.

 

Never a problem with rail joiners myself either.

 

Steve

 

Edited June 5 by 7mmin7foot
add photo

[brossard]

When I built mine, I thought of using copperclad for sleepers at the board ends.  In the event I didn't do anything.  The layout has exhibited at a number of shows with no problems.  I did construct end protector boards to cover the rail ends and which also have handles.

 

I used Woodland Scenics 5mm foam which does work well, however I do notice track ends become slightly uneven, which I put down to the squidgyness of the foam.  I want to look into removing some of the foam underlay at the ends and replacing with cork.

 

I also used Aileen's Tacky Glue to stick the foam to the board and the track to the underlay.

 

More details in the link below.

 

John

[Gilbert]

This is my approach in 4mm. 3mm ply to match 3mm cork. I've recently heard of the WS foam deteriorating so something more robust at the joint is definitely worth considering. The aligner is by Modeltech and I think they do them in 7mm to match Peco track.

[brossard]

21 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

This is my approach in 4mm. 3mm ply to match 3mm cork. I've recently heard of the WS foam deteriorating so something more robust at the joint is definitely worth considering. The aligner is by Modeltech and I think they do them in 7mm to match Peco track.

 

The WS foam on my layout has been there for about 5 years - no deterioration.  I would like to see the documentation to back this up.  Maybe you are thinking of Peco foam which is a totally different beast.

 

John

[Gilbert]

6 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

The WS foam on my layout has been there for about 5 years - no deterioration.  I would like to see the documentation to back this up.  Maybe you are thinking of Peco foam which is a totally different beast.

 

John

I am not John. I sold a layout some time ago and met the buyer recently. The WS foam had started to "go". Obviously he did not blame me - he also dabbles in US HO ( as I have done) and he said there has been quite a lot of chat about it on US forums. I have no reason to disbelieve him but have not done any further research myself.

Chris

[brossard]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

I am not John. I sold a layout some time ago and met the buyer recently. The WS foam had started to "go". Obviously he did not blame me - he also dabbles in US HO ( as I have done) and he said there has been quite a lot of chat about it on US forums. I have no reason to disbelieve him but have not done any further research myself.

Chris

 

The word "go" is a bit nebulous.  I did a search asking if WS foam deteriorates and didn't get much.  What there was had good reviews so I don't know.  How long does a layout last anyway (sort of like how long is a piece of string)?

 

Anyway, found this, hope it helps to make your decision:

 

https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/246445/2748087.aspx

 

John

Edited June 5 by brossard

[Olive_Green1923]

8 hours ago, 7mmin7foot said:

On mine I doubled up the copper clad sleepers , but you need to really score the surfaces before glueing them together. ( I used cyano)

They were still a slither under the peco sleeper height on mine, so I just used some card again glued to the scored underside of copper clad and direct to the ply boards.

See photo.

 

Don't forget its not just sleeper height, the peco chairs lift the track slightly higher too. so its the finished rail height you need to be looking as the datum point.

Mine have set solid and will never move.

Probably lots of other ways too... but this  worked for me. Simple is often the easiest and best way in my experience.

 

Never a problem with rail joiners myself either.

 

Steve

 

Many thanks. Photo very useful.

[doilum]

In my best Peter Kaye voice: it's not the rails you need worry about, it's those blooming baseboards.

The one investment that I would strongly advise are pattern makers dowel. These guarantee perfect alignment every time. In 7mm the track tends to stay where it is put. If you are worried about a glue fixing drill and pin the outer ends of the sleeper. Fine 20mm veneer pins are available from Wickes or B&Q and can be made invisible with a smear of filler. Another option is to screw a small brass screw under the rail on the edge of the baseboard.  The track can be soldered to it making the joint virtually bomb proof. The key to invisible baseboard joints is to maintain the correct sleeper spacing which is difficult to do with copper clad sleepers on each side of the joint.

Just as an aside, non of the dozen or so O gauge layouts that I have built or have been involved with have used cork underlay . This is something we gave up on when we moved up from 4mm thirty odd years ago. All these 7mm layouts have had the track laid directly to the plywood top. All of them have been exhibition layouts three or four appearing  at Guildex over the years.

 

[brossard]

37 minutes ago, doilum said:

In my best Peter Kaye voice: it's not the rails you need worry about, it's those blooming baseboards.

The one investment that I would strongly advise are pattern makers dowel. These guarantee perfect alignment every time. In 7mm the track tends to stay where it is put. If you are worried about a glue fixing drill and pin the outer ends of the sleeper. Fine 20mm veneer pins are available from Wickes or B&Q and can be made invisible with a smear of filler. Another option is to screw a small brass screw under the rail on the edge of the baseboard.  The track can be soldered to it making the joint virtually bomb proof. The key to invisible baseboard joints is to maintain the correct sleeper spacing which is difficult to do with copper clad sleepers on each side of the joint.

Just as an aside, non of the dozen or so O gauge layouts that I have built or have been involved with have used cork underlay . This is something we gave up on when we moved up from 4mm thirty odd years ago. All these 7mm layouts have had the track laid directly to the plywood top. All of them have been exhibition layouts three or four appearing  at Guildex over the years.

 

 

Good advice.  Many people worry about drumming from the boards which is why underlay is used.  Foam is a good material for that, cork less so IMO.

 

Anyway, pattern makers dowels:

 

 

I used these throughout the layout and they do work well.  They are tricky to install since the tolerance of the dowel and hole is half of sod all while woodworking tolerances are much larger.  A pillar drill is useful along with 1" Forstner bit.

 

John

 

[doilum]

49 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

Good advice.  Many people worry about drumming from the boards which is why underlay is used.  Foam is a good material for that, cork less so IMO.

 

Anyway, pattern makers dowels:

 

 

I used these throughout the layout and they do work well.  They are tricky to install since the tolerance of the dowel and hole is half of sod all while woodworking tolerances are much larger.  A pillar drill is useful along with 1" Forstner bit.

 

John

 

My choice too. The secret is to drill the end as a matched pair before assembly. Making the ends from a thicker ply helps too.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

Anyway, pattern makers dowels:

Cheaper if bought as pattern makers dowels and not baseboard dowels!

[brossard]

16 minutes ago, doilum said:

My choice too. The secret is to drill the end as a matched pair before assembly. Making the ends from a thicker ply helps too.

 

In my case I chose 25mm Russian ply for the ends - and only the ends!  Rest of the board construction was lighter ply.

 

Better to install before assembly although I have done it with boards that are already assembled - something of a faff but doable.

 

John

Edited June 5 by brossard

[doilum]

That is thick! I can't remember the last time I saw 25mm ply.  18mm is my usually choice though suspect that 12mm would suffice. 

[Jack]

Our club have used flat head screws secured at the baseboard edges and adjusted to the height of the rail. The rail is then laid over the top with the webbing trimmed back. It's then soldered to the screw then cut at the joint.

 

I haven't used them on my O gauge because the peco track is very sturdy and the layout has protector plates for storage and transit.

 

Defo recommend pattern makers dowels.

[brossard]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

That is thick! I can't remember the last time I saw 25mm ply.  18mm is my usually choice though suspect that 12mm would suffice. 

 

Dang, got my standards mixed up, meant 12mm or 1/2".

 

John

[brossard]

33 minutes ago, Jack said:

Our club have used flat head screws secured at the baseboard edges and adjusted to the height of the rail. The rail is then laid over the top with the webbing trimmed back. It's then soldered to the screw then cut at the joint.

 

I haven't used them on my O gauge because the peco track is very sturdy and the layout has protector plates for storage and transit.

 

Defo recommend pattern makers dowels.

 

I dislike the screw method to secure the track because you lose sleeper detail.  It is pretty effective though.

 

Snap!  As I mentioned I don't have any extra reinforcement and use plates.

 

John

[melmerby]

27 minutes ago, brossard said:

I dislike the screw method to secure the track because you lose sleeper detail.  It is pretty effective though.

Use copper clad sleepers adjusted for correct height and rail soldered to that.

Edited June 5 by melmerby

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Use copper clad sleepers adjusted for correct height and rail soldered to that.

 

At the start of layout development, before I knew anything, I played around with copper clad sleepers.  In the end, I did nothing at all and the track ends are happy.

 

John

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

At the start of layout development, before I knew anything, I played around with copper clad sleepers.  In the end, I did nothing at all and the track ends are happy.

 

John

Try doing it with a 36" redius curved track with a joint at 45degrees to the track, that's one of my lifting sections🙂

[brossard]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Try doing it with a 36" redius curved track with a joint at 45degrees to the track, that's one of my lifting sections🙂

 

My first effort was to build a quasi horseshoe layout that was 11' x 19' long.  The radius was around 4'6" and most stock would propel around that although breaths were held as it did so.  The one exception was a G5 0-4-4T whose rear bogie swing was just too great.

 

Long story short, I didn't like it and opted for a traditional BLT with easy curves.  Some of my turnouts were built from blown up Peco medium radius point templates.  I didn't like the standard Peco turnout, it's too long.

 

When the layout is up in my basement, I have just enough room to squeeze my corporation through at the end.

 

John

Edited June 5 by brossard

[Siberian Snooper]

Before baseboard assembly, I clamp the mating ends together in the workmate and drill a 1.6mm/ 1/16th inch pilot holes through the boards and then use the Forstner bit. Gives perfect alignment 1st time every time.

 

 

[doilum]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

Use copper clad sleepers adjusted for correct height and rail soldered to that.

Screws are only needed if the sleeper pattern leaves an unusually long length of unsupported rail on one side..

In a perfect world the sleepers would be perfectly spaced either side. The world is not perfect and you may even end up with lines running diagonally with half the sleeper on one board and half on the other. This is less of a problem in the smaller scales as points are physically much smaller and there is usually more wiggle room in the track design. Eventually you may progress to building points across the join

,

Edited June 6 by doilum

[Stephen Freeman]

Pattern Makers Dowels - definitely, slightly cheaper from the horse's mouth so to speak but still not cheap. Turning to the question of maintaining alignment:

 

1) Screws -seems a good idea but in practice not so. You are potentially going from an insulated baseboard, which is relatively quiet to something very rigid and unforgiving. Not only is it noisy but there is an effect on the progress of the loco etc. The track end protectors designed by Mike Williams and sold by C&L had the same issue.

2) Copperclad yes but not thick enough, you could use a copperclad plate suitably milled.

3) Best solution (I would say that of course!) is to use a suitable plate system. Many moons ago I used to offer such a thing but everything track related is very much the cinderella of the hobby and is generally little considered by most. It consisted of two whitemetal plates with C&L Lost Wax brass chairs. For a joint you needed 4 plates (One for each rail both sides) and 8 chairs. Closest thing now would be the Modeltec version.

 

I have found a photo. Somwhere I should have a photo of it with ballast etc.

 

Edited June 9 by Stephen Freeman