Exhibitions where you don't know what layouts will be there....

[Clive Mortimore]

8 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Fantastic - please let me know who stocks the rtr LBSC overhead electric emus, NER Tyneside Electrics emus and Newport-Shildon locos, the LNER-trialled Armstrong-Whitworth diesel, the Midland Morecambe-Heysham emus, the Hellingly Hospital and York Gasworks OHL locos,  the C&SLR, CLR and early Met Rly fourth rail locos….
 

At least the NER Quayside branch and the 1920s Met Rly City to Harrow trains are (almost) modellable rtr!

 

Yes, I’m teasing. But “diesel and electric modelling” shouldn’t just be a synonym for “post-1968 British Rail”. Need to keep pushing those manufacturers…

Oh gosh - sorry, really OT.

-)

 I am a diesel and electric modeller, I have modelled LMS, LNER, SR and GWR diesel locos along with a LMS EMU. Also for my main layout nothing is post April 1967, the date of the introduction of the first new class in that modern image rail blue.

 

I have in the past scratchbuilt quite a few locos including some that were available RTR at the time. Many that were not RTR at the time, I am not too sure now they have been manufactured if it is a good or bad thing.

[Philip1812]

7 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

That's really interesting. Two things do seem to be apparent from the statistics. One is that people seem to be more willing to travel longer distances on the Saturday of a two-day show. That's contrary to my personal experience - I generally prefer to go to the more distant shows on the Sunday, when the roads will be quieter (and I have to drive, because there aren't any shows that are easily reachable by rail from where I live) - but I wonder if that's a reflection of the fact that rail travel is generally more reliable on a Saturday. If you've got the data, it might be interesting to do some correlations between mode of transport and distance travelled.

 

The other thing is that people seem to be less willing to travel longer distances now than they used to be. As you say, that may also be related to increasing unreliability of rail transport. But I also wonder if it might be another of the post-Covid demographic changes that have affected a lot of leisure pursuits. Lockdown created an enforced break in many activities that had previously been a habit, and many people have simply not gone back to what they used to do. 

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that the data I have collected since 2015 is applicable to all exhibitions anywhere in the country, but it isn't just "data for one show for one year", it's one show for seven years.  The data collected is very useful in tackling the particular problems that face the Manchester show. 

 

We are the only Society to stage an exhibition in the centre of a major UK city, but that brings with it the problem of transport links - neither our present venue (2022 onwards) or our previous one (2015-2019) had a car park for the public at the venue.  All of our visitors had to come by public transport, or park in nearby multi-storey car parks.  I've not done a correlation between distance travelled and mode of transport, but I do know the proportion of our visitors who use the different forms of transport.

 

My apologies that Excel didn't use the same colours for the graphs in the two different years.

 

For us, the availability of public transport is crucial, which is why there is such a large section on our exhibition website which details how to reach our venue.  We also turn this problem to our advantage in our advertising, by pointing out that our exhibition is environmentally friendly because (pre-pandemic) over 70% of our visitors travelled by public transport.  (As an aside, our innovative QR code based exhibition guide, which we introduced in 2022, also saves over 1.8 tonnes of paper!)

 

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Large conurbations will also be skewed by more readily available public transport. There are lots of shows you simply can't access by bus, and the train is a hike away (I know some put on a bus from the station, but at Leamington, we gave up on that because it cost far more than the numbers using it brought in. Other shows will vary)

The two covid-cancelled exhibitions would have been our last at our previous venue and our first in the new one, so that as well as the problems that all exhibitions faced after lockdown, we had the extra problem of persuading our regular visitors to come to a different venue which was no longer 3mins walk from Piccadilly station.  We hired a shuttle bus to encourage our visitors to attend, but it was horrendously expensive and carried barely 300 passengers all weekend.  Fortunately visitors have  now realised that the new venue is only 6mins from Oxford Road station!

 

And finally, that traditional 60:40 split between Saturday & Sunday.  My collected data shows our average split for the five pre-covid shows was, as expected, 59.2:40.8 resulting in some overcrowding on Saturday in our old and smaller venue.  So in 2023 we introduced differential pricing - cheaper tickets on Sunday.  The result was a 54.2:45,8  split, (with a bigger attendance).  The Society Sales stand wasn't effected , it did its usual brisk trade with modellers looking for bargains, but there were  many more families with children on Sunday, and an altogether nicer ambience on both days.

 

So, for many reasons, market research data collected from your exhibition visitors is a very useful resource.

[ianmianmianm]

Just what you need - concise and helpful https://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/event/y2024/27337-LetchworthModelRailwaySociety_Exhibition

 

[gr.king]

I don't see any of the layouts on that list accompanied by mention of both the real/imaginary region or company, and the portrayed period, so that still isn't "just what you need" if the layouts are not already known to you or if the names they've been given are not geographically unique and widely known.  What's actually on offer is still unknown unless you are able to look up further details.

GWR for instance may specify the broad region, but it doesn't identify the period. There are may quite different phases of GWR.

A more accurate description of the area allegedly modelled, and of whether the layout is urban or rural for instance, would be much more better too.

[AY Mod]

25 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I don't see any of the layouts on that list accompanied by mention of both the real/imaginary region or company, and the portrayed period, so that still isn't "just what you need" if the layouts are not already known to you or if the names they've been given are not geographically unique and widely known.  What's actually on offer is still unknown unless you are able to look up further details.

GWR for instance may specify the broad region, but it doesn't identify the period. There are may quite different phases of GWR.

A more accurate description of the area allegedly modelled, and of whether the layout is urban or rural for instance, would be much more better too.

 

I think you have unrealistic expectations of the time, skills and information available (layout owners are often poor at providing full information) to most exhibition managers and/or publicity person. I don't know of anyone else asking for that level of detail to decide whether to stay away from a show.

[PaulRhB]

25 minutes ago, gr.king said:

both the real/imaginary region or company, and the portrayed period, so that still isn't "just what you need" if the layouts are not already known to you or if the names they've been given are not geographically unique and widely known.  What's actually on offer is still unknown unless you are able to look up further details.

GWR for instance may specify the broad region, but it doesn't identify the period. There are may quite different phases of GWR.

A more accurate description of the area allegedly modelled, and of whether the layout is urban or rural for instance, would be much more better too.

It’s a layout listing not a build article for a magazine.

Where do we stop, layout height, lighting rig supplied, requiring YouTube videos to show typical operation, IQ level of exhibitors to gauge information supplied? 
Name and scale will allow an internet search, subject is helpful, landscape and precise geographical location are rather difficult when it’s ’inspired by’ possibly several areas. 
What happened to the joy of discovering a nice gem you weren’t expecting? If it’s a long way I go for one or two layouts I may of heard about and enjoy the rest as surprises, if it’s local I just support the local club unless it proves to be of no interest after a couple of visits. 

[PaulRhB]

I went to Larkrail last Saturday. I knew in advance not a single one of the nine layouts were a subject I’m currently modelling. I still went though as I’ve been several times and it’s a melting pot of good ideas, fun conversations and inspiration. 
I stayed 5 ½ hours, cake was involved too so that’s about 1hour, ok 4 1/2 hours so average 30m per layout. I’m not going to duplicate the Forest of Dean, Beirut or France anytime soon but I still enjoyed them. The P4 layout started by Iain Rice was stunning but having running issues yet I still enjoyed photographing it and chatting. 
Go with your mind open and even a small show can provide hours of entertainment. You’re chatting to one person, someone else joins in and it snowballs from there. Go to another show bump into the same person and off you go on the next link in an endless chain. One guy I bumped into I hadn’t seen since before Covid and we had a thirty second catchup then chatted about the Beirut layout subject, modelling and perception for 10-15 mins. 
Stop trying to limit your exposure to ideas and you may actually find inspiration 😉

[t-b-g]

It isn't too much of a task to say that a layout is "OO Gauge GWR 1920s period".

 

Seeing a large number of grouping or pre-grouping era layouts is going to get me enthusiastic about going to a show. As is a good number of more finescale layouts.

 

Many shows do provide that information, so it isn't difficult to do. 

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, t-b-g said:

It isn't too much of a task to say that a layout is "OO Gauge GWR 1920s period".

Agreed, but I guess people don’t think of it and like I said above then they just want more and more info. 
 

Also if you apply simple scale, company and date to some of mine you wonder if it helps the majority?

HOm gauge HSB present day. 
009 gauge MOD 1990’s

Nm9 gauge RhB 2000’s. 

 

Probably they would be better described as;

Harz Mountains in Germany, metre gauge steam. 
009 Military munitions depot 1990’s

Nm9 Swiss Glacier Express 2000’s
 

 

I always ask for photos via our show managers to promote our shows as it gives a taster but many don’t have mobile phones and several have struggled to send pics due to download limits as they aren’t familiar with resizing pics. I’ve relied a lot on Flickr attributed pics and friends to illustrate layouts. One advantage of our show manager having a couple of us promoting the show on their behalf as part of the club. 

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Agreed, but I guess people don’t think of it and like I said above then they just want more and more info. 
 

Also if you apply simple scale, company and date to some of mine you wonder if it helps the majority?

HOm gauge HSB present day. 
009 gauge MOD 1990’s

Nm9 gauge RhB 2000’s. 

 

Probably they would be better described as;

Harz Mountains in Germany, metre gauge steam. 
009 Military munitions depot 1990’s

Nm9 Swiss Glacier Express 2000’s
 

 

I always ask for photos via our show managers to promote our shows as it gives a taster but many don’t have mobile phones and several have struggled to send pics due to download limits as they aren’t familiar with resizing pics. I’ve relied a lot on Flickr attributed pics and friends to illustrate layouts. One advantage of our show manager having a couple of us promoting the show on their behalf as part of the club. 

 

I think there are two distinct markets that shows are aimed at. The non enthusiast probably just wants to know how many layouts they are paying to see and whether they are GWR 1920s or modern day Australian makes little difference.

 

It is more the enthusiast market where the mix of layouts may help them decide whether to come along or not. So I would be happy with your first set of descriptions, perhaps with the initials written out in full for those who don't know what HSB stands for.

 

I am pretty sure that most show organisers will know basic information about the layouts they have invited. They wouldn't be very good at their jobs if they didn't. It isn't difficult to include that on a website or a thread on RMWeb.

[PaulRhB]

I suspect much of it is down to personal characters. 
Fareham was a good show but two years ago rather quiet as despite some stunning layouts the advertising was almost zero. 
 

Someone who’s enthusiastic to organise the show may simply not think about advertising, or those that volunteer to cover that part are out of their depth and ‘freeze’. 
 

Even with direct contact it sometimes takes multiple attempts before you get a response from an exhibitor too. Some of these people are wonderful raconteurs in person but electronic media defeats them so dealing with the varied personalities abilities can be part of the problem in providing info. 
 

I think we can strive to provide a decent brief description when we share details and show managers can ask but after the AI generated gibberish one show used I think I’d rather deal with the status quo! 😆 

 

I’ve had to point out spelling mistakes and odd edits for my layouts and was always vaguely bermused by the Warley show guide printing a square box with straight lines as a trackplan for some yet not printing much more detailed ones I know were provided for other layouts. That was their choice but meant I never bothered with the guide and just downloaded the floor plan and list. I would highlight must see stands and then drift around just discovering the rest.  

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, gr.king said:

I don't see any of the layouts on that list accompanied by mention of both the real/imaginary region or company, and the portrayed period, so that still isn't "just what you need" if the layouts are not already known to you or if the names they've been given are not geographically unique and widely known. 

 

There is more information on the organiser's own wwebsite, which is handily linked to from that listing.

 

I wouldn't expect a listings site to carry more than a broad overview of a show. The main purpose of a listings site is to advertise the fact that the show is taking place, and provide a pointer to where more information can be found.

 

But, anyway, I'd question why we need to know all the details of all the layouts. A basic layout list is useful, because it gives an idea of how well the organisers have done in getting a decent mix of scales, settings and eras. But beyond that, I'm willing to be surprised. There is nothing like turning up at a show and encountering a layout that you've never seen or heard of before, but that absolutely blows the socks off you. And some descriptions can be a little misleading. There are some layouts that have looked really good in the website advance write-up, but, on viewing, have left me a little disappointed for one reason or another. That's not to say they're bad layouts, it's just that, for me, they lacked the "wow" factor. And you'll never get that from photos or text, however well written. You can only get it from seeing the layout in action.

[fulton]

A good example of how it can be done, Rapido Railex, Maidstone in September, web page recently updated with more layouts, photo and description of each, a larger amateur show, would probably struggle to find the time and resources to do this.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

A good example of how it can be done, Rapido Railex, Maidstone in September, web page recently updated with more layouts, photo and description of each, a larger amateur show, would probably struggle to find the time and resources to do this.

Having people used to promotion helps Rapido 😆

Our club became obsessed with having a brand name, Wimrail,  and I pointed out it made no sense to the average punter. I also campaigned for a simpler poster with pic and distinct from a distance over using a block of text. That lasted several years until the latest show where a far less eye catching layout was used but hey ho they decided they needed a change for the sake of it missing the point of a distinct design actually being a bit of branding and standing out on a table full of flyers at other shows. 
 

[stan williams]

L would more likely tell the small minority on this forum who want to know the inside of a ducks ------!

To go and take a running jump.

I suspect if you where going to a Knitting Exhibition, you would want to know in advance the colour of the wool,

what size knitting needles, the sheep the wool came from and who sat down with their arms out, while the wool was wrapped up.

Some of you need to get a life and stay away from model railways.

[Andy Hayter]

Well I am afraid my jumping skills are not sufficient to take me across the Channel, so if I am going to attend a UK exhibition, I am faced with a £500+ down payment* .  That being the case I do want to know a bit more than just a list of layouts.  It is not necessary to give a full account but scale, area and era are sufficient.  Likewise I want to know which traders will be there, so I can make an outline plan for purchases and even pre-order so that I can pick up at the exhibition, with the knowledge that what I want will actually be there.  

 

*  Almost all locations of major UK shows except Ali Pali require two flights in each direction, extended flight times make return on the same day impractical or impossible so hotel required, airport parking etc.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, stan williams said:

L would more likely tell the small minority on this forum who want to know the inside of a ducks ------!

To go and take a running jump.

I suspect if you where going to a Knitting Exhibition, you would want to know in advance the colour of the wool,

what size knitting needles, the sheep the wool came from and who sat down with their arms out, while the wool was wrapped up.

Some of you need to get a life and stay away from model railways.

 

There was a time when a post like that have been like a red rag to a bull. I am much more mellow now. So I thank you for your valuable contribution to the otherwise well mannered discussion.

[gr.king]

11 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I think you have unrealistic expectations of the time, skills and information available (layout owners are often poor at providing full information) to most exhibition managers and/or publicity person. I don't know of anyone else asking for that level of detail to decide whether to stay away from a show.

All fully explained previously, here and elsewhere, and as t-b-g says it is not a horrendously onerous a task to provide the key details: 

I have a limited budget.

I have other things to do with my time too.

I have quite specific railway interests, not an "anything will do" enthusiasm.

I have limited willingness to travel great ranges, but will travel if something really good is definitely in prospect.

I 'm not going to travel to almost every show, every weekend, in the faint hope that it might contain something not-advertised that is surprisingly good.

If organisers are not bothered about attracting discerning customers to properly described shows that feature really good layouts, then it doesn't bother me if I keep my money in my pocket.

 

I note that some organisers, even of modest shows, find the ability to provide very good details of the layouts that do not require the potential customer to do his own research 

 

It requires a decision for me to attend. It does not require any decision at all to stay away, stay at home, or go somewhere more promising instead..

 

 

 

[Not Jeremy]

16 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

 

It requires a decision for me to attend. It does not require any decision at all to stay away, stay at home, or go somewhere more promising instead..

 

 

 

Honestly, that statement alone probably makes any exhibition organiser who doesn't meet your narrow expectations quite glad that you won't have attended their show.

 

You are probably a jolly fellow with a broad minded approach and a ready smile...

 

Anyway, we can't all go to all of the shows, that would just be silly, so it seems to me that any show organiser not giving what appear to be "demanded" details is in fact doing everyone a favour!

 

There, everyone's happy!

[t-b-g]

It is surprising to me that the idea of show organisers providing very basic information about the layouts attending elicits such negative responses. To me, if it encourages a few more people to attend it would be a good thing. Perhaps the opposite is the case too. A show made up if 15 DCC sound fitted diesel depots might put people off going if they knew in advance but "Come and see 15 great layouts" may encourage attendance.

 

My personal view is that I like to see a bit more information about what I am paying to see before I travel and pay to get in. I don't see that as a view that should lead to my excommunication from the hobby!

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

Honestly, that statement alone probably makes any exhibition organiser who doesn't meet your narrow expectations quite glad that you won't have attended their show.

 

You are probably a jolly fellow with a broad minded approach and a ready smile...

 

Anyway, we can't all go to all of the shows, that would just be silly, so it seems to me that any show organiser not giving what appear to be "demanded" details is in fact doing everyone a favour!

 

There, everyone's happy!

Playing the man, not the ball, is unfair.

 

I know @gr.king and he is indeed a jolly fellow with a broad minded approach and a ready smile.

 

I don't think I've met you personally but from your posts and those of others I suspect that you are too.

 

Live and let live.

[PaulRhB]

5 hours ago, gr.king said:

it is not a horrendously onerous a task to provide the key details: 

No but I think you have to realise that many are doing this in spare time around a family and job, add to that often it is one or two people sorting out layouts, venue, traders and promotion and they have their own opinions on what is essential. 
With my club a couple of took on spreading the info online which was appreciated by our show manager, before that it was just local posters and in the magazines. RM etc only publish layout list so that’s what many consider adequate. 
It may simply not occur to many that the online community expect so much detail and even if you ask exhibitors for the info and a picture you don’t necessarily get all of it if at all 😉 

 

The invite process is often just taking details at a show and sometimes just an email or address from operating crew who are busy operating so there’s no time for photoshoot and interview. 
 

Shows that don’t advertise notice the fallout as Fareham did and the following year was back to its old attendance. Even established shows can stumble if someone doesn’t do their bit for the team. 

 

Remember even the commercial shows like BRM do are often one of a portfolio of events of the owning company and the marketing department will go for general advertising that they know works. The detail is provided by the magazine crew which is often only 2-3 people doing it on top of their day job so much, like moderating this behemoth, is done outside their work day. 
 

From personal experience of going the extra mile online you rarely get any feedback to your posts let alone at the show so it’s difficult to tell if the effort is actually worth it often. I’ve had a few mention it but from that I’m probably only getting us another 10 visitors of the 1200 through the door over two days 😉

 

So maybe there is an untapped market out there but they ain’t responding in noticeable numbers so I suspect most are quite happy with traditional advertising of the venue and date or magazine brief lists. 

[Rivercider]

I am just imagining a manufacturer announcing a new production run of class 08s, but then not advising what livery they will be in...... 

 

cheers

[snitchthebudgie]

54 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

I am just imagining a manufacturer announcing a new production run of class 08s, but then not advising what livery they will be in...... 

 

cheers

 

But they don't tell you the exact paint mixes for the livery, or the bits that will be painted black.  There is a reasonable amount of detail needed for a show that is easy to provide - size of layout, scale/gauge, prototype railway and perhaps location and era.  Anything else is a bonus.

 

And after all that no one has mentioned QUALITY.  I could go to a show and see a layout described as P4, GWR, East Somerset, 8th August 1929 and more, and spend two minutes looking at it - it's totally sterile and uninteresting.  Or another layout could be OO, BR, Midlands, and have an interesting track layout and a lot of character and worth a long view.  In the end, you only find out by attending the show.

[gr.king]

14 hours ago, stan williams said:

L would more likely tell the small minority ....

To go and take a running jump.

 

After you. Small minority? With that abusive attitude, then if you have anything to do with organising any shows you don't deserve to have anybody coming through the door.

Do you think that everybody should be grateful for a show of any kind, and be bound to attend, even if little more than a load of rubbish is being exhibited?

As just mentioned above, layout quality is important too, but I suspect that has to be judged individually by the observer, and would be impossible to described fairly and easily in any reasonably compact piece of pre-show publicity.