Exhibitions where you don't know what layouts will be there....

[Philip1812]

44 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

And in the real word layouts get invites unseen based on previous standards and performance so that they have something new and interesting on show. That trumps widely seen exhibits.

Agreed.  Two of the layouts at the MMRS show in December haven't been finished yet and will be making their debut, but I've seen the previous work of the owners and that's enough.  Similarly an email a few months ago to a layout owner who won a prize at our 2015 show encouraged him to get back to work on a stalled project, which will now appear with us at our centenary show in 2025.

 

Something else I agree on:  some (thankfully not all) layout owners are very slow in dealing with admin paperwork - and a surprising number don't know the dimensions of their own layout!

 

On 19/07/2024 at 09:56, gr.king said:

I don't see any of the layouts on that list accompanied by mention of both the real/imaginary region or company, and the portrayed period, so that still isn't "just what you need" if the layouts are not already known to you or if the names they've been given are not geographically unique and widely known.  What's actually on offer is still unknown unless you are able to look up further details.

GWR for instance may specify the broad region, but it doesn't identify the period. There are may quite different phases of GWR.

A more accurate description of the area allegedly modelled, and of whether the layout is urban or rural for instance, would be much more better too.

 

I think that this listing  https://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/event/y2024/27384-ManchesterModelRailwaySociety_Exhibition  and this website https://www.mmrs.co.uk/exhibition/ gives you all the information you've asked for to make your decision to visit.  I hope to meet you there.

On 20/07/2024 at 15:36, MarkSG said:

Throwing this out there as a general comment rather than a reply to any specific comment previously, this is what matters to me when making a decision on whether to visit a show or not. The information can, broadly speaking, be divided into "must have", "should have" and "nice to have". Taking them in order...

 

Must have

 

Firstly, I have to be certain that it's happening. That may seem a bit of an obvious statement, but it's surprising how many shows don't meet that requirement. If the only evidence for a show's existance is an entry on a listings website, with no link to the organiser's own website or social media, then there's no assurance it's actually going to take place. Equally, if there is a link to an organiser's website or social media, but that has no details of the show. Anyone can submit an entry to a listings website or the exhibition pages of the magazines, but the publishers have no way to verify that. When I was younger we pretty much had to take the Railway Modeller show guide as gospel, because there wasn't any realistic way to check it. But these days, with the ready availability of web and social media, there's zero excuse for any show organiser not  publishing at least the basic details on their own wesite and/or Facebook page. Even if the show is actually happening, if they can't go to even that teeny tiny bit of effort in publicising it then I'd be inclined to wonder what else they can't be bothered to do, either.

 

Assuming the show organiser does have their own website and/or FB page that gives the relevant details, then the bare minimum those need to tell me about the show is:

• Date/time
• Location
• Price
• Approximate number of layouts/traders

Obviously, without a date and a location then I can't go anyway - I'm not psychic! But the admission fee and an indication of the size are essential for any show other than, possibly, one that's only a few minutes' drive away. I need to have an idea of whether the cost is value for money and whether the size of the show justifies the travel time.

 

Should have

 

Beyond that, nothing is absolutely essential, but there are some things that are really helpful to know, and I'd expect them to normally be provided:

• Availability of parking (free or otherwise) 
• Some information about the organiser
• Some information about the layouts (either a list of those expected or, at least, an indication of which scales/gauges/era/settings are in the mix) 
• Whether there's anything aimed specifically at younger children (eg, a drive-it-yourself Thomas layout) 
• Whether there will be refreshments on sale
• Whether admission is cash only, card only or both cash and card

I would expect most of this information to be provided, although it wouldn't be a deal breaker if not all of them were - some of them may simply not be applicable to some shows. But if none of them were then that would be another reason to wonder whether the show organisers were really on top of all the organisational aspects of the show.

 

Also, while it's not directly relevant to me, because I don't have any mobility difficulties and my children have all grown out of the baby buggy phase, I do expect organisers to indicate whether the venue is fully accessible or, if not, how much of it is and what potential issues might be faced by someone with mobility difficulties or needing to bring a push chair (eg, "one layout will be on the stage which has five steps up from the hall floor level") so that people can make their own decison whether that's a problem or not. Again, the absence of this information, even if I, personally, don't need to know it, does indicate a lack of thought given to the needs of visitors and therefore leads me to wonder what else might not have been thought of.

 

Nice to have

 

The remainder are things that, while their absence wouldn't bother me at all, having them does tend to make me more likely to visit a show that's further away and hence needs more justification for the travel time:

• More detailed information about the layouts, including a short description and/or photos
• An active discussion thread on RMweb in which the organiser (or a someone connected to the organiser, such as a club member) participates
• A printed flyer handed out at other shows I visit
• Photos/videos of previous shows

I wouldn't expect these to be available as a matter of routine for every show, particularly smaller ones. But I would expect most of them to be the norm for the bigger shows (which, in fairness, they are for all the ones I regularly attend). And even for smaller shows, it does help.

 

You'll see that my thinking is  basically the same as yours.

As well as catering for the regular modeller, we must reach out and attract an audience who are not modellers in the hope that they will take up the hobby.

I hope that you're tempted to make the trek north from Evesham!

Edited July 24 by Philip1812
wrong town!

[PaulRhB]

I’ve exhibited layouts that were incomplete a month before the show because that’s when I had the time and deadline to overrule the other things demanding my time. You promise it’ll be ready and off you go. 

20 days building to show! If you know what you need to do and have the bits to hand. Also not the first time 😆

[Reorte]

On 20/07/2024 at 11:06, t-b-g said:

 

The things I look for, at least in a general show, are a variety of scales, gauges and periods. I don't expect pre-grouping steam layouts at a DEMU show or OO gauge layouts at EXPO EM but at a club show, or one of the more commercial events, a variety appeals more than a selection of very similar layouts. You are right, you can't judge the quality but there are often a few layouts I already know, which gives me an idea if the show manager is a discerning selector or just wants to fill the hall with anything available.

I think variety's very important. I suspect I'd find a show filled with nothing but what I'm most interested in would get repetitive very quickly.

 

There have been shows where some of the layouts I've found the most interesting and spent the most time on are of times and places I've no knowledge of, or even in some cases actively dislike when it comes to the full size railway. Good modelling's always worth a look whatever it's of.

[gr.king]

I can certainly understand that some layouts (or their builders) may gain a high enough reputation to be invited un-seen by the show organisers, but presumably the layout owners are still asked to supply proper details?

It may also be possible (and sensible) for previously un-shown layouts to be seen by show organisers "at home" before booking. If they cannot actually be set up and tested at home, or in premises borrowed for layout test purposes, is there any real confidence in the idea that the layout will actually work well, if at all, at the show? I know of one layout that could not be set up at home and which unfortunately reached the state where it failed to work completely, or almost completely, at shows - yet it attended three or four more shows (not just minor ones) in that same poor state.

[MarkSG]

59 minutes ago, Philip1812 said:

I think that this listing  https://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/event/y2024/27384-ManchesterModelRailwaySociety_Exhibition  and this website https://www.mmrs.co.uk/exhibition/ gives you all the information you've asked for to make your decision to visit.  I hope to meet you there.

 

The MMRS show is always a good example of effective pre-show publicity, particularly given that it's an event best visited by public transport so travel information is key.

 

Other good examples are the Stafford show, and at the other end of the size spectrum, the Cheltenham show.

 

59 minutes ago, Philip1812 said:

I hope that you're tempted to make the trek north from Evesham!

 

I used to be a regular visitor to the MMRS show when I lived in Stoke, because it was, from there, a simple short and direct trip on the train. It's a bit beyond my normal range now that I've moved further south, although I did take the opportunity one year of visiting when I happened to be in the area on business - I travelled early on the Sunday so that I had time to visit the show before checking into my hotel in the evening.

[t-b-g]

55 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I think variety's very important. I suspect I'd find a show filled with nothing but what I'm most interested in would get repetitive very quickly.

 

There have been shows where some of the layouts I've found the most interesting and spent the most time on are of times and places I've no knowledge of, or even in some cases actively dislike when it comes to the full size railway. Good modelling's always worth a look whatever it's of.

 

I agree entirely. After modelling in EM Gauge for over 40 years, it was seeing a few very nice small O Gauge layouts that inspired me to try my hand. One of them was in the blue diesel period, which is something I will probably never model myself.

 

Me being inspired to consider building in O gauge by a layout set in the blue diesel period is a good example of just what you are saying.

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

It may also be possible (and sensible) for previously un-shown layouts to be seen by show organisers "at home" before booking. If they cannot actually be set up and tested at home, or in premises borrowed for layout test purposes, is there any real confidence in the idea that the layout will actually work well, if at all, at the show? I know of one layout that could not be set up at home and which unfortunately reached the state where it failed to work completely, or almost completely, at shows - yet it attended three or four more shows (not just minor ones) in that same poor state.

First off the show and layout can be 50-200 miles apart so not always possible. 
 

Second lots build layouts that don’t fit up at home. I have a 34x11 ft layout, and a 12x9ft one that won’t fit up as my largest room is 18x8ft plus has furniture on the walls. 
Both layouts were up and running at showtime on their first outings because I tested them in pairs. 
 

Your example is someone whose ambition somewhat exceeded their ability and the repeated showings prove that despite what people promise it doesn’t always work out. 
My layouts have faults, I’ve had to modify things before opening due to damage, unit failure, fault that didn’t show up in testing and recently because I only got power five minutes before opening so hadn’t been able to test and snag simple errors like plugs not all the way home. On a mates layout a controller software update left half the locos unresponsive due to a glitch in the decoder software on one make!
 

There are loads of ideals to aspire to but as in the rest of life not everyone hits the mark every time. Ask politely online and you may well get the info too. 

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

And in the real word layouts get invites unseen based on previous standards and performance so that they have something new and interesting on show. That trumps widely seen exhibits.

 

 

I have in the past invited layouts sight unseen (and often still un-/part-built) by any of the team involved in selecting proposed layouts.  This has of course been based on reputation.

 

I have never done this without knowing how much space the layout would require (1), what the layout would represent (2) and scale and gauge.

 

1.  Obvious really.  You need to allocate the correct amount of space in the exhibition venue.

2.  Less obvious perhaps but you do need this information to provide a balance of interest for a non-specialist show.   Suddenly finding on the night before you open that over a third of your layouts represent the South-West of the UK when the show is in the North East is probably not going to enthuse the paying modeller.  That is not to say that such layout should be eliminated from such locations but as said it is about balance.  

[t-b-g]

For quite a few years, I (usually jointly with a friend or friends) used to try to build a new layout every year. There were shows I would attend with a layout and as we left, the show manager would ask me if I intended building a new one for next year and invite me there and then. They had seen what we could do and were happy that we would deliver.

 

I have never, ever, been invited to a show when the organiser didn't ask for details like the scale/gauge, size, region and period of the layout. Even when it wasn't yet started, a year before the show, I knew what I was going to build. If organisers don't know what is coming say three months before the show, I would say that they are really not very well organised. I have seen it happen, with paperwork being sent to me very late. I have been slow at returning paperwork but the good organisers are on top of it and have chased me up.

 

Reading through the thread I see lots of poor excuses as to why something that should a natural part of the process of organising a show is too difficult for people to manage.

 

This is from somebody who has never organised a show because I would be dreadful at it! I accept that sometimes organisers are reluctant and the club is just grateful that some poor mug has taken it on. So I understand why it doesn't happen as it should sometimes but it would be a step in the right direction if people didn't just try to make out that providing very basic information was some sort of huge undertaking.

[MarkSG]

Part of the issue - and I see this in other fields that I'm involved in, not just railway modelling - is that organising an event is a different skillset to publicising an event. Making sure that the event takes place as planned, all the elements are present and everything runs smoothly on the day is one thing. And a very difficult and timeconsuming thing it is, too. But making sure that potential visitors know all they need to know in order to make an informed decision on whether to attend is a different thing. And those two skills aren't necessarily found in the same person. They're not even necessarily found in the same team, if it's a small group of people putting on the event.

 

Part of this is, I think, also related to the fact that communication skills are often under-valued. There's an old saying, that I think everyone will be familiar with, that "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach". But that's completely back to front. Teaching is harder than just doing, because you can't teach unless you can first do, but in order to teach you also have to be able to communicate how to do. And there are a lot of people who can do, but have no idea how to communicate what they do. Similarly, PR and marketing are often dismissed as just fluff and decoration, ancillary to the real work done by those creating the thing being marketed. To be sure, they depend on the existance of the thing in the first place - you can't market nothing - but effective communication is often the difference between the success or failure of a product, service or, in this case, event.

 

In this context, it's worth bearing mind that the commercial shows, despite the somewhat snobbish perception of them by some people who think that the amateur club approach is the Only True Way, almost always have very good publicity. Events run by the likes of Warners, Key Model World, Meridienne, etc are supported by websites giving all the information you might want. Even a show run by a manufacturer, Rapido Railex, despite being relatively modest in terms of size, has very high quality publicity. And that's because they are run by organisations for which PR and marketing are fundamental to their operation. 

 

Of course, one of the advantages of a commercial organisation is that they can afford to employ people whose job is publicity - not just for their shows, but also their other operations. Clubs don't usually have that luxury. But if a club can find volunteers to do the work of actually organising the show, then it can, usually, also find volunteers to do the work of publicising it. For that to work, though, there needs to be a realisation that publicity is a standalone aspect of the process and not something that's simply an add-on to the work of an already overloaded exhibition manager. Just like you wouldn't have the show manager selling tea, coffee, cake and bacon rolls on the day (but you do think it's important to make sure someone does), don't dump publicity on the show manager if that's not their skillset. Maybe even consider paying someone to do it, if you're expecting to make a decent surplus from the takings.

 

It doesn't take a lot of time and effort to put together an informative show website, provided you know what you're doing (and web development is my day job, so I can speak from experience here). The key thing is finding the person who knows what they're doing, and not assume that it will be the same person (or one of the same team) that's putting the show itself together.

[Modelrailwayquest]

I am happy to start a conversation with someone and break the ice and when I book layouts for shows, I not only want to see the layout (working) as sometimes they don't.  I also want to meet and see the owner and operators as it could be the best fine scale realistic scenic weathered show stopper, but if the team running it refuse to engage with the public, it won't be coming to one of my shows.   Simple test, a layout I see which I would love for one of my exhibitions, I say hello and look for their response, they respond with a smile or a hello, things are looking good,  and I then ask for info on the layout and a exhibitors pack and only then once chatting with the owner/operators do I make up my mind if the layout is right for my show.  

[Andymsa]

2 hours ago, Modelrailwayquest said:

I am happy to start a conversation with someone and break the ice and when I book layouts for shows, I not only want to see the layout (working) as sometimes they don't.  I also want to meet and see the owner and operators as it could be the best fine scale realistic scenic weathered show stopper, but if the team running it refuse to engage with the public, it won't be coming to one of my shows.   Simple test, a layout I see which I would love for one of my exhibitions, I say hello and look for their response, they respond with a smile or a hello, things are looking good,  and I then ask for info on the layout and a exhibitors pack and only then once chatting with the owner/operators do I make up my mind if the layout is right for my show.  

I understand the desire of wanting people to engage but it excludes those who may be shy or have difficulty in social situations. Some are just natural in conversation others are not and just come across as unfriendly when in truth there just finding the situation difficult. To exclude a great layout because it’s being judged by the person and not what the layout is offering could make the difference to being a good or poor show.

[Modelrailwayquest]

16 hours ago, Andymsa said:

I understand the desire of wanting people to engage but it excludes those who may be shy or have difficulty in social situations. Some are just natural in conversation others are not and just come across as unfriendly when in truth there just finding the situation difficult. To exclude a great layout because it’s being judged by the person and not what the layout is offering could make the difference to being a good or poor show.

 

I am referring to exhibitors who point blank ignore the public and just want to play trains or chat with their fellow operators.  Shyness I accept, and when booking a layout, we asked that there is at least one person who is willing and able to engage and chat with the public.  A layout operator not willing to engage or run the layout for the benefit of the paying public could also make the difference to being a good or poor show.  We often attend shows to film the show for my You Tube channel, and try to film in the quieter moments to get close to the layouts.  The amount of times, the camera has been set up to get a great shot at one end of a layout, no one else is viewing it and the operator doesn't run a train or stops it short and returns it.  For a show, there is nothing better then the owner/operators of a layout talking to the public about their layout.  Maybe bring out diagrams and reference material, answering questions on even simple things like is this what they call N gauge etc.  

[Andymsa]

2 hours ago, Modelrailwayquest said:

 

I am referring to exhibitors who point blank ignore the public and just want to play trains or chat with their fellow operators.  Shyness I accept, and when booking a layout, we asked that there is at least one person who is willing and able to engage and chat with the public.  A layout operator not willing to engage or run the layout for the benefit of the paying public could also make the difference to being a good or poor show.  We often attend shows to film the show for my You Tube channel, and try to film in the quieter moments to get close to the layouts.  The amount of times, the camera has been set up to get a great shot at one end of a layout, no one else is viewing it and the operator doesn't run a train or stops it short and returns it.  For a show, there is nothing better then the owner/operators of a layout talking to the public about their layout.  Maybe bring out diagrams and reference material, answering questions on even simple things like is this what they call N gauge etc.  

 

that’s a bit of a double edged sword, many layouts are operated by one person does the operator run trains or chat to visitors as often one thing is sacrificed. With a group layout maybe one person can be dedicated to chat, there is nothing more infuriating than looking at a layout and nothing is running and the operator is chattering away. When young children are watching a layout their interest soon wains if nothing is moving. As for your filming and the operator not playing ball is such a layout worthy of the exposure. I myself have found most operators willing to chat about technical aspects of their layout. 

[davknigh]

If there’s anything to be learned at a model railway show it is the truth of the old saying, “There’s nowt as queer as folks”. People will stare for ages at a train pelting around in a sheet of plywood at break neck speeds and ignore an exquisitely crafted model just because it is stationary. My own layout is a small shunting plank operated from the front that gets decent attention but more from other modellers than non-modellers. We chat about the various aspects of the track, scenics and stock plus the origins of the track plan and that is enough to keep me happy enough to exhibit and all which that entails such as setting up, tearing down and driving back and forth. 

 

Cheers,

 

David

[queensquare]

Just skim read this thread and I think there are a number of contributors who probably won’t be coming to Larkrail.
Ho hum…. !

 

Jerry

[AY Mod]

17 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Just skim read this thread and I think there are a number of contributors who probably won’t be coming to Larkrail.
Ho hum…. !

 

Jerry

 

You can't be taken on trust to procure to an interesting and eclectic mix with extra surprises of top quality subject matter and good value catering even after years of experience. 😁

[PaulRhB]

More cake for me 😁

[Not Jeremy]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

Just skim read this thread and I think there are a number of contributors who probably won’t be coming to Larkrail.
Ho hum…. !

 

Jerry

 

Just as well, or it could be....

 

"Blimey, we'll need the Royal Scot to move this lot....."

 

And, 

 

"Don't tell them your layouts name, Parsley Sidings...."

 

You have to be a bit old and sad to get the last one, I'm both....

Edited July 26 by Not Jeremy
?

[Izzy]

On 25/07/2024 at 12:40, Modelrailwayquest said:

We often attend shows to film the show for my You Tube channel, and try to film in the quieter moments to get close to the layouts.  The amount of times, the camera has been set up to get a great shot at one end of a layout, no one else is viewing it and the operator doesn't run a train or stops it short and returns it.

 

Do you not engage in conversation with the owner/operator to ascertain that they are okay with you taking shots/video of their layout before doing so? Then they will know what is being attempted and be able to assist. If you don't perhaps what then happens is a reflection of what they think about it.

 

Bob

[MattR]

Imagine getting to go to a British model railway show, period!

[F-UnitMad]

16 minutes ago, MattR said:

Imagine getting to go to a British model railway show, period!

Much the same way as I imagine seeing American trains for real, or getting to something like the Chicago O Scale March Meet.... 🤔😉🤦‍♂️

[Modelrailwayquest]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

 

Do you not engage in conversation with the owner/operator to ascertain that they are okay with you taking shots/video of their layout before doing so? Then they will know what is being attempted and be able to assist. If you don't perhaps what then happens is a reflection of what they think about it.

 

Bob

Yes, I even go and visit each layout and talk to the operators before the show, or at the start to say we are coming back at some time during the event to film and introduce them to the camera person.  

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

Just as well, or it could be....

 

"Blimey, we'll need the Royal Scot to move this lot....."

 

And, 

 

"Don't tell them your layouts name, Parsley Sidings...."

 

You have to be a bit old and sad to get the last one, I'm both....

Me too. Parsley was the lion, as I recall.

[Izzy]

9 hours ago, Modelrailwayquest said:

Yes, I even go and visit each layout and talk to the operators before the show, or at the start to say we are coming back at some time during the event to film and introduce them to the camera person.  

It’s a great shame they can’t be more accommodating in that case. Fully understand why you feel a bit let down. As someone no longer able to attend exhibitions I now rely on the kindness of those such as yourself to post videos of them so I can at least see what I’m missing, although the personal interaction with others is easily the biggest miss of all. 
 

Bob