Exhibitions where you don't know what layouts will be there....

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, snitchthebudgie said:

 

But they don't tell you the exact paint mixes for the livery, or the bits that will be painted black.  There is a reasonable amount of detail needed for a show that is easy to provide - size of layout, scale/gauge, prototype railway and perhaps location and era.  Anything else is a bonus.

 

And after all that no one has mentioned QUALITY.  I could go to a show and see a layout described as P4, GWR, East Somerset, 8th August 1929 and more, and spend two minutes looking at it - it's totally sterile and uninteresting.  Or another layout could be OO, BR, Midlands, and have an interesting track layout and a lot of character and worth a long view.  In the end, you only find out by attending the show.

 

The things I look for, at least in a general show, are a variety of scales, gauges and periods. I don't expect pre-grouping steam layouts at a DEMU show or OO gauge layouts at EXPO EM but at a club show, or one of the more commercial events, a variety appeals more than a selection of very similar layouts. You are right, you can't judge the quality but there are often a few layouts I already know, which gives me an idea if the show manager is a discerning selector or just wants to fill the hall with anything available.

 

For an example, if a show has 25 OO gauge layouts listed, pretty much all set from the 1950s onwards, I am likely to avoid it. If it has 12 OO Gauge, 3 EM and 2 in P4, plus 3 O Gauge and one in S7, 3 N gauge and 1 in 2mm finescale, 10 of which are set in the pre-grouping or grouping eras, it will grab my attention.

 

If all the information I have is a list of 25 layout names, I don't have the information to make a decision and my default setting is to give it a miss as the show organisers have failed to provide me with the information I need to make an informed decision.

 

Either way, I can still be either disappointed or delighted with the show when I get there.

 

My interests are fairly narrow and pretty niche, so the chances of me seeing anything pre-grouping GCR in EM (or O Gauge) at any show are slim but the more early stuff there is and the more finescale there is, the better the chance that something will make me glad I went.

 

I have been to many shows where the layouts have only had a quick glance but they can still be worth attending if I get to meet up with people I don't see very often, or pick up something tasty from a trader. But the best shows are where there are at least two or three layouts that make the trip worthwhile. 

[stan williams]

gr,king

I think you should tell the world, how many model railway shows you visit each year and for how many years

and can you honestly say, with your hand on your heart, that by going I have kept that show alive.

Enough said.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, stan williams said:

gr,king

I think you should tell the world, how many model railway shows you visit each year and for how many years

and can you honestly say, with your hand on your heart, that by going I have kept that show alive.

Enough said.

Can you honestly say the same?

[MarkSG]

Throwing this out there as a general comment rather than a reply to any specific comment previously, this is what matters to me when making a decision on whether to visit a show or not. The information can, broadly speaking, be divided into "must have", "should have" and "nice to have". Taking them in order...

 

Must have

 

Firstly, I have to be certain that it's happening. That may seem a bit of an obvious statement, but it's surprising how many shows don't meet that requirement. If the only evidence for a show's existance is an entry on a listings website, with no link to the organiser's own website or social media, then there's no assurance it's actually going to take place. Equally, if there is a link to an organiser's website or social media, but that has no details of the show. Anyone can submit an entry to a listings website or the exhibition pages of the magazines, but the publishers have no way to verify that. When I was younger we pretty much had to take the Railway Modeller show guide as gospel, because there wasn't any realistic way to check it. But these days, with the ready availability of web and social media, there's zero excuse for any show organiser not  publishing at least the basic details on their own wesite and/or Facebook page. Even if the show is actually happening, if they can't go to even that teeny tiny bit of effort in publicising it then I'd be inclined to wonder what else they can't be bothered to do, either.

 

Assuming the show organiser does have their own website and/or FB page that gives the relevant details, then the bare minimum those need to tell me about the show is:

• Date/time
• Location
• Price
• Approximate number of layouts/traders

Obviously, without a date and a location then I can't go anyway - I'm not psychic! But the admission fee and an indication of the size are essential for any show other than, possibly, one that's only a few minutes' drive away. I need to have an idea of whether the cost is value for money and whether the size of the show justifies the travel time.

 

Should have

 

Beyond that, nothing is absolutely essential, but there are some things that are really helpful to know, and I'd expect them to normally be provided:

• Availability of parking (free or otherwise) 
• Some information about the organiser
• Some information about the layouts (either a list of those expected or, at least, an indication of which scales/gauges/era/settings are in the mix) 
• Whether there's anything aimed specifically at younger children (eg, a drive-it-yourself Thomas layout) 
• Whether there will be refreshments on sale
• Whether admission is cash only, card only or both cash and card

I would expect most of this information to be provided, although it wouldn't be a deal breaker if not all of them were - some of them may simply not be applicable to some shows. But if none of them were then that would be another reason to wonder whether the show organisers were really on top of all the organisational aspects of the show.

 

Also, while it's not directly relevant to me, because I don't have any mobility difficulties and my children have all grown out of the baby buggy phase, I do expect organisers to indicate whether the venue is fully accessible or, if not, how much of it is and what potential issues might be faced by someone with mobility difficulties or needing to bring a push chair (eg, "one layout will be on the stage which has five steps up from the hall floor level") so that people can make their own decison whether that's a problem or not. Again, the absence of this information, even if I, personally, don't need to know it, does indicate a lack of thought given to the needs of visitors and therefore leads me to wonder what else might not have been thought of.

 

Nice to have

 

The remainder are things that, while their absence wouldn't bother me at all, having them does tend to make me more likely to visit a show that's further away and hence needs more justification for the travel time:

• More detailed information about the layouts, including a short description and/or photos
• An active discussion thread on RMweb in which the organiser (or a someone connected to the organiser, such as a club member) participates
• A printed flyer handed out at other shows I visit
• Photos/videos of previous shows

I wouldn't expect these to be available as a matter of routine for every show, particularly smaller ones. But I would expect most of them to be the norm for the bigger shows (which, in fairness, they are for all the ones I regularly attend). And even for smaller shows, it does help.

 

[gr.king]

6 hours ago, stan williams said:

gr,king

I think you should tell the world, how many model railway shows you visit each year and for how many years

and can you honestly say, with your hand on your heart, that by going I have kept that show alive.

Enough said.

I visit several shows per year, either known good/reliable ones, or those that give me an adequate impression that something I like or want is on offer. I also visit some local club shows to show support, regardless of what's on offer, as I can do that at low cost. I've been visiting model railway shows for the better part of four decades, so I have offered my support, and I happily help with a local show, but I don't feel any obligation to support distant shows that include nothing of interest to me or which provide too little information to allow me to judge the value of a visit in comparison to its cost. Your apparently heavy involvement with shows does not entitle you to ridicule my suggestions as utterly worthless or to hurl insults at me for making suggestions.  Even amateur / charitably run events cannot rely on unconditional public support, they need to compete with other attractions and other demands on potential customers' time if they wish to attract maximum attendance and revenue. If the organisers cannot manage to produce adequate descriptions in their publicity, or cannot be bothered to do so, then so be it, but inevitably some potential visitors won't be attracted.

Edited July 20 by gr.king

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, stan williams said:

st enodoc,

I have organised dozens of shows over the years, I have also exhibited 8 different layouts over a 30 year period

and exhibited at nearly 300 exhibitions.

I have exhibited in Scotland, England, Wales and the Netherlands, winning many Best in Shows.

I don t need to read or listen to a minority of people, whether they should or should not bother to attend a show.

Model Railwaying is a hobby, if you cannot be bothered, go and find something else to do.

I can understand where Anarak comes from.

I am sorry but if  you have to resort to the "my modelling and exhibition experience is better than yours"  tactic, then you probably need to grow up.  The debate is not about a glorious past but how to encourage a better future.    Any and all opportunities that are cost effective should be employed to improve attendance at exhibitions.  We have already lost a number and could do without losing more.    

 

For the record, organiser of a number of exhibitions, exhibitor in many more in 3 countries.  Not that that counts for a lot because that is the past and we need to look forward not back.. 

[gr.king]

Incidentally, in case anybody thinks I'm a miserable grump or a born moaner, let me put their impression straight. Those parts of this hobby that are of prime interest to me give me a great deal of pleasure, but there are other parts of it that are of little interest, or no interest whatsoever.  I suspect the same is true for significant numbers of modellers who have specialised interest and knowledge, perhaps narrowly, in depth, but who do not have broad interest or much broad knowledge - and there's no law or rule to say that we all have to be interested in everything or that we have to like/enjoy everything.  I'm not asking show organisers to describe every layout in microscopic detail, as has been suggested by some of the exaggerated remarks above. That little bit of extra detail "up front" in the publicity, information which the organisers must have in their possession unless they've invited layouts "blind", will help to attract those of us with selective interests, as well as those who who are happy/keen/able to spend money and time to see absolutely any type of railway modelling, irrespective of theme, era, scale and quality.

[stan williams]

Perhaps some of you should  look at this discussion from an exhibitors point of view, because in some cases

you have no idea what that contains.

If you receive an invite to exhibit your layout at an exhibition, do you look to see what will be on show there, no,

because generally when the invite goes out, the exhibition manager does not know the line up either.

The vast majority of exhibitors are out of pocket after taking a layout to a show and by the way some clubs and

organisations fall into three catagories,  The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and you certainly find out the better ones

over the years.

Exhibitors are giving up their free time, it could be two days, three days or even 5 days. The latter for myself when

exhibiting at the SEC in Glasgow. You travel up the 200 miles on the Thursday and set up. Friday, Saturday and Sunday

are three full days of running a layout. Its a great show (your knackered at the end of it). The organisers are great

and they put you up in a hotel on a B&B basis, if you want something to eat at lunchtime you have to provide your own, but tea/coffee is plentiful. In the evening you have a meal out at your expense (thats 4 evening meals plus any liquid refreshment).

You are paid your fuel costs, van hire if needed and of cause you get the B&B hotel.

Yes, you have made that decision to take a layout and exhibit it, you are out of pocket and you have spent a whole

weekend away from your family.

Now think about the above, when you are pondering whether to go along to an exhibition.

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, stan williams said:

Now think about the above, when you are pondering whether to go along to an exhibition.

 

On the whole, I am a bit more likely to go to a show that has a reputation for treating its exhibitors well. That's one of the reasons why I like to see a thread about it here on RMweb, because if it is a show with a good reputation then that's almost always an opportunity for someone to say that "I'm really looking forward to taking my layout", or words to that effect. If the exhibitors are enthusiastic about a show then the chances are the organisers are on top of things and it will be a good show for visitors, too. 

 

Obviously you can't always rely on that, particularly for smaller shows where it's entirely possible that none of the exibitors are participants here. So the lack of exhibitor endorsement for a show wouldn't necessarily put me off. But it is a very positive sign when it does happen.

[Clive Mortimore]

Having read the comments on this topic I have come to this conclusion using my experience as a viewer You Tube videos of shows I couldn't be ar$ed to go to, an attendee, an exhibitor, working on trade stands, demonstrating modelling, standing in the car park, assisting at shows and organising them. 

 

You can only assess what is at a show by the information provided. If you think this appeals to me off you go. If you think this does not appeal to me, stay at home.

 

If you reasoning is there is nothing that relates to my modelling, then stay at home and play with your own layout, it saves time, and money.

 

Staying on the nothing relates to my modelling theme, still go you might meet some fellow like minded modellers and have a nice chat while you are sitting having your cuppa and a slice of homemade Victoria sandwich.

[gr.king]

On 21/07/2024 at 11:15, stan williams said:

Perhaps some of you should  look at this discussion from an exhibitors point of view, because in some cases

you have no idea what that contains.

If you receive an invite to exhibit your layout at an exhibition, do you look to see what will be on show there, no,

because generally when the invite goes out, the exhibition manager does not know the line up either.

The vast majority of exhibitors are out of pocket after taking a layout to a show and by the way some clubs and

organisations fall into three catagories,  The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and you certainly find out the better ones

over the years.

Exhibitors are giving up their free time, it could be two days, three days or even 5 days. The latter for myself when

exhibiting at the SEC in Glasgow. You travel up the 200 miles on the Thursday and set up. Friday, Saturday and Sunday

are three full days of running a layout. Its a great show (your knackered at the end of it). The organisers are great

and they put you up in a hotel on a B&B basis, if you want something to eat at lunchtime you have to provide your own, but tea/coffee is plentiful. In the evening you have a meal out at your expense (thats 4 evening meals plus any liquid refreshment).

You are paid your fuel costs, van hire if needed and of cause you get the B&B hotel.

Yes, you have made that decision to take a layout and exhibit it, you are out of pocket and you have spent a whole

weekend away from your family.

Now think about the above, when you are pondering whether to go along to an exhibition.

I already fully understood and accepted all of that, but with limited money and limited time that is not required for other uses, one can only go to a limited number of exhibitions. If one's interests are quite specific, then it is likely/sensible/inevitable that only those shows with clearly identified, good, relevent layouts and traders will be tempting  Those shows with only "other" traders and layouts, or which only have unfamiliar layouts without specified themes, will inevitably be lower priority on the "what shall I spend my money on" list.

If you really feel that you are already bending over backwards trying please everybody, you are making a perfect job of it, that you therefore have entitlement to expect everybody to attend your exhibitions regardless of their individual interests, and that despite that some people are still ungratefully failing to attend, then maybe it's time to hand over your evidently stressful responsibilities to somebody else?

Edited July 22 by gr.king

[Free At Last]

5 hours ago, stan williams said:

Now think about the above, when you are pondering whether to go along to an exhibition.

Sorry, but I don't give monkeys about all that when I am deciding whether or not to attend an exhibition.
I too am not interested in 'all things model railway'. I stopped going to my local exhibitions for a few years as I have been in and out in 15 minutes. The last Wigan show was going to be my last time there because of this.
I will be attending a local one later this year though, as there is a layout that is of interest to me built by one of the forum members getting its first outing.

[MarkSG]

8 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

I too am not interested in 'all things model railway'. I stopped going to my local exhibitions for a few years as I have been in and out in 15 minutes. The last Wigan show was going to be my last time there because of this.

 

While you are, of course, perfectly entitled to be interested in what you are interested in and not in what you aren't, you do have to accept that the above statement marks you out as both an atypical modeller and a long way from the core demographic of exhibition attendees. So your opinions, while entirely valid from your perspective, are of limited utility in helping exhibition organisers decide what forms of publicity are most likely to maximise visitor numbers and equally unhelpful in contributing to the wider discussion of what forms of publicity show visitors expect to see.

[snitchthebudgie]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Staying on the nothing relates to my modelling theme, still go you might meet some fellow like minded modellers and have a nice chat while you are sitting having your cuppa and a slice of homemade Victoria sandwich.

 

Too right!  I went to the Chatham show with two members of our N gauge club on Saturday.  It was a good show, though I didn't rate it as highly as some commentators on RMWeb - perhaps that reflects my own peculiar interests (all legal, I hasten to add.)

 

But I had a good morning out with good friends, I saw a handful of layouts that I found inspiring (from a wide range of scales and prototypes), I met some other friends and old acquaintances, and talked to a range of exhibitors.  What more do you want from a show (apart from a shorter queue for the obligatory bacon roll)?

[Chatham.mrc]

14 hours ago, snitchthebudgie said:

 

Too right!  I went to the Chatham show with two members of our N gauge club on Saturday.  It was a good show, though I didn't rate it as highly as some commentators on RMWeb - perhaps that reflects my own peculiar interests (all legal, I hasten to add.)

 

But I had a good morning out with good friends, I saw a handful of layouts that I found inspiring (from a wide range of scales and prototypes), I met some other friends and old acquaintances, and talked to a range of exhibitors.  What more do you want from a show (apart from a shorter queue for the obligatory bacon roll)?

Thank you for coming. It was the first show I've ever organised.

Yes the food (he said he could cope with up to 3000 people in a day but obviously that was abit of a lie) was one of the biggest issues over the weekend but I've already been put in touch with bigger caterers.

If there's any other feedback please let me know. I've a list of bits already 

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Chatham.mrc said:

Thank you for coming. It was the first show I've ever organised.

Yes the food (he said he could cope with up to 3000 people in a day but obviously that was abit of a lie) was one of the biggest issues over the weekend but I've already been put in touch with bigger caterers.

If there's any other feedback please let me know. I've a list of bits already 

it certainly was not obvious it was your first time, well done. As for the food outlets I echo the thoughts of others. 

[Chatham.mrc]

57 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

it certainly was not obvious it was your first time, well done. As for the food outlets I echo the thoughts of others. 

Oh believe me I echo it aswell. I didn't even get to have lunch from it myself. 

It's been a big learning curve this weekend.

[Steven B]

Exhibition organisers know what they're booking so I don't think publishing a list of layouts with scale, gauge, location and approximate era too much to ask for.

 

Some of the comments here make me wonder if there are sport fans who will only watch their own team play, or only if they know their team will win. Or if a classical music fan will only listen to certain composers music played by a select few orchestras. As a film fan would you only ever see films staring a certain actor or by a particular director.

 

Me? I'm only going if I know there's a trader with an Blue/grey Mk1 BG with B4 bogies on sale for less than £25...

 

Steven B

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

Exhibition organisers know what they're booking so I don't think publishing a list of layouts with scale, gauge, location and approximate era too much to ask for.

That’s ok if you’ve got a team but if it’s one or two people believe me you have your hands full getting the venue organised, dealing with the fact they’ve double booked parts of the venue, dealing with 20+ exhibitors and traders info and questions / demands, advertising in mags and local papers, shop windows, catering, car parking, insurance and that’s all before show day when you find out the extra parking field is a swamp, they’ve used half the car park as a building site store, got another event on competing for the parking left, finding you need four extra stewards to keep the other events people from wandering in for free, finding the direction signs are have scribbled and only visible from four feet away not the clear signs promised 😉

 

I think the majority need to realise your average show is organised by a very small team with a few more helping on the day. Coordinating all that while having a job and only having the evenings to do it, on top of family commitments means cutting them a little slack would be nice. 
I’ve taken on promoting the two groups I belong to’s show on three forums and believe me getting that info from everyone isn’t easy. It’s easy to think it takes only a few mins but when you’re getting emails from 30 odd people and some drop out as others step in it’s pretty busy even without all the other business. I don’t do Fb or Instagram either so another member does that. 
 

So stop moaning about others, join a local group and help them out and find out just how much goes into it. Then you can share the magic solution instead, because believe me I haven’t found it and find I’m still waiting on info weeks later. I don’t moan at the exhibitors because I know many struggle to find time. 
One show I used to do was famous for the chaotic lack of updates, once you’d gone it was other exhibitors and you telling the new invites “just turn up” and we moved layouts around to fit. The 9” to the foot ruler became legendary but the show was so much fun it became part of the charm.  We are still sad 7 years later it’s gone and that was down to the age of the organising group not any failures of attendance. 
 

I’ve been on exhibition committees, general show dogsbody since the early 90’s and in the last 20 years enthusiastic member on top of layout or show duties trying to fill the varied social media opportunities. Then I try to have my layout ready for shows too. It means working just as hard as actual work in the run up to a show and yes stuff gets missed. You can always send a polite email asking a few weeks before to remind them 😉

Edited July 22 by PaulRhB

[ChrisMitchell]

2 hours ago, Steven B said:

Me? I'm only going if I know there's a trader with an Blue/grey Mk1 BG with B4 bogies on sale for less than £25...

I’ll pay £30 😀

[Steven B]

21 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I’ve taken on promoting the two groups I belong to’s show on three forums and believe me getting that info from everyone isn’t easy. It’s easy to think it takes only a few mins but when you’re getting emails from 30 odd people and some drop out as others step in it’s pretty busy even without all the other business.

 

I'm not saying that the tasks involved in organising a show isn't hard work, particularly when juggled with family life.

 

What I am saying is that as part of the invitation process, you know which layouts you're inviting to the show. You know what scale/gauge they are. You know roughly what era and location they are.  How else do show organisers keep a show balanced? I'd imagine it would be very rare that someone is invited to bring a layout to a show without the organisers knowing nothing about it apart from the size. The information is already there and would be another couple of columns in a spreadsheet.

 

Steven B

[PaulRhB]

17 hours ago, Steven B said:

The information is already there and would be another couple of columns in a spreadsheet.

I think you’d be surprised how often an exhibitor doesn’t give that much info even when asked and also that not everyone uses spreadsheets or in the way you expect 😆. For our club show I get photos of meticulously hand drawn plans that I redraw up on the computer. The spreadsheet obviously makes sense to our show manager but also contains previous and potential layouts as his backups so I have to be extremely careful reading off what’s in the current show! 
Again it’s a case of the people doing this are enthusiastic but not necessarily the ones you’d employ to run a show so you deal with the quirks much like you deal with the exhibitors quirks too. 

I did a show earlier this year and the information was a bit like dragging blood out of a stone in the lead up. Apart from my layout listed as HOm Harz on the website I had nothing until a couple of weeks before let alone punters having info about the layout. But when I got there they were great, as was the show, and chatting to the show manager on Sunday he’d been so busy with work in a crucial job after taking it on he’d struggled to cope. Now I could have thrown a tantrum in the lead up but I’m glad I didn’t as it was a great weekend and proof that even the exhibitors coordinating five helpers, four cars and 40ft of layout sometimes need to have a little faith. I did because I did a bit of digging, I’d communicated in less fraught times on here with the show manager in topics and liked his posts, a friend who’d done the show before had also confirmed it was a friendly group so with a record of putting on good shows I dragged all the stuff out and we had fun. 
You don’t load up this pile lightly either and it’s much smaller than other club layouts I’ve helped with. There are six of those layout section boxes to be dragged down two flights of stairs!

So I’ve been on all three sides of shows and to be honest the only crap one I went to was as an exhibitor and they’d given all the info up front, just their show manager was a nightmare! 
Everyone will no doubt still think it’s easy to add that but just my insight into why in reality it doesn’t always happen even with the best intentions. 

[gr.king]

I had imagined that managers of good shows only invited layouts that they have seen, preferably working, so that they would know both the theme and the quality of the layout before deciding whether to take the commercial risk of including it as one of the "attractions" that help to justify the admission fee.

I'm surprised to find that anybody gets their layout invited to a show, unseen by the organisers before the event and without supplying proper details to the organisers. That knowledge only strengthens my belief that my money would not be well spent on visits to shows that don't / won't give out enough information about most of the layouts.

I've been building an exhibitable layout. I happened to invite a local show manager to see it in very incomplete form about ten months ago. He expressed an interest in having it at his 2025 show. That spurred me on to get it finished in time to a decent standard, and thoroughly tested before the public debut. I was also careful to make sure that when I received the show forms at the beginning of this year, I interrupted my construction efforts to complete the forms properly and supply extra details. That involved compiling a full description of the layout, electrical requirements, dimensioned sketch plans including space required beyond the mere baseboard sizes, and as accurate / fair an insurance value as I could determine. I then submitted the details to him as a matter of courtesy 5 months ahead of his July 2024 deadline date...

Edited July 24 by gr.king

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I had imagined that managers of good shows only invited layouts that they have seen, preferably working, so that they would know both the theme and the quality of the layout before deciding whether to take the commercial risk of including it as one of the "attractions" that help to justify the admission fee.

 

Most do, even though it involves them paying to travel around the country from their own pocket, and giving up many weekends to do so. That said, people are sometimes booked on photos and reputation. Your method means there would be no new layouts at shows, as they have to be at a show to be assessed, but can't go to a show, because they haven't been to a show...

 

10 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I then submitted the details to him as a matter of courtesy 5 months ahead of his July 2024 deadline date...

 

Congratulations. This puts you well ahead of many exhibitors who are rubbish at responding with the paperwork - as many exhibition managers will attest to!

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

Your method means there would be no new layouts at shows, as they have to be at a show to be assessed, but can't go to a show, because they haven't been to a show.

 

And in the real word layouts get invites unseen based on previous standards and performance so that they have something new and interesting on show. That trumps widely seen exhibits.