Exhibitions where you don't know what layouts will be there....

[roundhouse]

2 hours ago, 298 said:

 

And very good it is too, you couldn't really ask for more from a volunteer led organisation. I would post a clicky link but that would deny @ELTEL the opportunity to promote the Stafford Show.

 

(Stafford Railway Circle Annual Model Railway Exhibition 28/29 September 2024

Saturday 28 September 2024 and Sunday 29 September 2024
Saturday: 10.00 – 17.00
Sunday: 10.00 – 16.30
Admission Prices: Adult: £17, accompanied children under 16 free.

At Stafford County Showground in Bingley Hall.

The County Showground is situated 3 miles to the east of the town on the A518 in the direction of Uttoxeter.

This year the show will build on the success of the 2023 show and the almost 60 years experience of running this show.  The Stafford Model railway Exhibition is now the largest independent exhibition in the country.

The good news is we will continue to use the main Bingley Hall at the Stafford County showground which provides more space and much better facilities.

Sat Nav postcode: ST18 0BD).

Looking forward to being there with Shepherdswell EKR

[ianmianmianm]

Oh my, I've just, against my better judgement, been to one of these and stung for £8.

 

One "layout" included some N gauge track laid on a grassy mat in some ovals with points, no ballast or weathering,, a backscene and some drivel about it being able to represent either N or OO9....   others of varying quality and completion. I don't even think half of them had painted track and some had no ballast. Some very basic club stand type trade. Supposedly ten layouts but my word that was stretching a point. 

 

And a walk in the rain along a muddy wet path that smelled of animal bedding, from the entry point to the actual exhibition building.

 

Forunately the petrol was not wasted.  It was only a few miles from a clubroom open day and there were six decent layouts in there and entry by donation or free. 

 

 

[gr.king]

Save for those few shows that are extremely close to home, easy to attend, inexpensive, and "known quantities" based on previous years or on "grapevine" knowledge, I work on the basis that I have more than enough things to do with my time and money, without risking wasting it on disappointments. If therefore a more distant show does not list the layouts and the traders, or if it offers only a basic list of names that are unfamiliar to me and which I cannot be bothered to research on-line (or which simply cannot be found), then wild horses will not drag me to that show. The same applies if it turns out that every layout on offer has a post-1950 theme and has (increasingly probably) been put together entirely from RTR stock, clone buildings/scenery and coarse scale track.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, gr.king said:

Save for those few shows that are extremely close to home, easy to attend, inexpensive, and "known quantities" based on previous years or on "grapevine" knowledge, I work on the basis that I have more than enough things to do with my time and money, without risking wasting it on disappointments. If therefore a more distant show does not list the layouts and the traders, or if it offers only a basic list of names that are unfamiliar to me and which I cannot be bothered to research on-line (or which simply cannot be found), then wild horses will not drag me to that show. The same applies if it turns out that every layout on offer has a post-1950 theme and has (increasingly probably) been put together entirely from RTR stock, clone buildings/scenery and coarse scale track.

Hi Graeme

 

This weekend was DEMU's Showcase, OK not your cup of tea when it comes to the period the exhibitors were modelling, but it becomes very hard to not populate a diesel and electric layout not using RTR stock. The standard of the modelling on the layouts was outstanding, I think the use of RTR stock has enabled modellers to concentrate on other aspects.

 

[gr.king]

Thanks Clive, although you are a perfect example of a DE modeller who proves that nothing like total reliance on RTR is necessary. The stock can be built, rather than simply bought, thus providing more variety and avoiding the pristine, mass-produced look. Although DE isn't normally my cup of tea, you'll also note that my total "turn off" is only achieved when the track is coarse and the scenics basic, bought-in, or repetitive too. By contrast, at a recent local show I saw the Invermire layout, a superbly effective portrayal of 1970s Northern Scotland, with little or nothing straight out of the box, and much scratch-built. Electric modelling in particular doesn't have to have a post 1950 "just like loads of others" theme either, there were lots of earlier electric railways, one or more of which I have at times been strongly tempted to model..

[RJS1977]

There's also the question of what is meant by "coarse track".

 

To me, "coarse track" means Triang Series 3 or earlier (or the Dublo equivalent) - I suspect GRK means code 100!

 

Whilst I can certainly admire a layout with "scale" track or scratchbuilt/kitbuilt locos, for me the most important point of any layout is how it is operated. If a layout only runs one train every five minutes, I'll move on. I'd much rather see a "coarse scale" RTR layout where something is happening, than the finest "scale" layout where it isn't.

[MarkSG]

9 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Whilst I can certainly admire a layout with "scale" track or scratchbuilt/kitbuilt locos, for me the most important point of any layout is how it is operated. If a layout only runs one train every five minutes, I'll move on. I'd much rather see a "coarse scale" RTR layout where something is happening, than the finest "scale" layout where it isn't.

 

We're at risk of going seriously off-topic with respect to this thread, but yes, I'd broadly agree with that. Also, given that RTR models are now better than the vast majority of us can achieve with kitbuilding or scratchbuilding (they're certainly better than anything I can achieve!), I'm not going to criticise a layout for using them. What I want to see in an exhibition layout is a plausible, well-designed and well-constructed setting in which trains in appropriate formations run along principles that (allowing for time compression) broadly follow real life practice. And I'll accept compromises in all of those so long as the overall impression works.

 

I am a convert to code 75 bullhead track and it's what I'm using on my current project - I think it is visibly nicer than code 100 flat-bottomed, particularly for the setting I'm modelling. But I've seen some very good exhibition layouts that do use code 100 FB rail even for a steam era setting, and so long as the rest of it works that's not a problem. Ditto couplings - Kadees are a reasonable approximation for diesel era layouts but there's nothing which is visually right and yet simple to use for steam era layouts. I'd like to be pedantic enough to use three-link, but I'm not, and it doesn't really bother me which particular compromise other modellers use, whether they be tension lock, Kadee,  Sprat & Winkle, Alex Jackson or whatever. It's all part of the willing suspension of disbelief which is necessary for any theatrical setting - and an exhibition layout is, most certainly, a form of theatre.

[RJS1977]

13 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

Ditto couplings - Kadees are a reasonable approximation for diesel era layouts but there's nothing which is visually right and yet simple to use for steam era layouts. I'd like to be pedantic enough to use three-link, but I'm not, and it doesn't really bother me which particular compromise other modellers use, whether they be tension lock, Kadee,  Sprat & Winkle, Alex Jackson or whatever. It's all part of the willing suspension of disbelief which is necessary for any theatrical setting - and an exhibition layout is, most certainly, a form of theatre.

 

While Kadees and 3-links undoubtedly look better than tension-locks, I'd much rather watch a layout with tension locks being coupled and uncoupled reliably than an operator with poor eyesight and a shaky hand taking five minutes to connect two wagons with three links, or a pair of wagons with Kadees being shuffled backwards and forwards interminably until they're finally stopped in the right place over the magnet....

[Hal Nail]

Didcot Railway Centre have a model railway and toy steam fair this weekend. The only blurb I've found says they welcome (though won't necessarily have?) models of all shapes and sizes.

 

Of course whether on that basis one then goes along with a sense of anticipation or simply gives it a miss, is probably similar to your attitude to bungee jumping or attempting a time critical train journey!

[Captain Kernow]

I tend not to worry about what layouts will be at any given show, but I do sometimes check which traders will be there.

 

What I do look out for, though, is who will be there in terms of people I would like to catch up with...

 

That's because I spend most time at shows catching up with people I know, getting the shopping done comes next and hopefully there'll be some time left to look at a few layouts...

 

[dasatcopthorne]

On 20/06/2024 at 23:12, RJS1977 said:

 

While Kadees and 3-links undoubtedly look better than tension-locks, I'd much rather watch a layout with tension locks being coupled and uncoupled reliably than an operator with poor eyesight and a shaky hand taking five minutes to connect two wagons with three links, or a pair of wagons with Kadees being shuffled backwards and forwards interminably until they're finally stopped in the right place over the magnet....

Please can we get back to discussing the coming election. 🤣

[Rivercider]

On 18/06/2024 at 16:35, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Graeme

 

This weekend was DEMU's Showcase, OK not your cup of tea when it comes to the period the exhibitors were modelling, but it becomes very hard to not populate a diesel and electric layout not using RTR stock. The standard of the modelling on the layouts was outstanding, I think the use of RTR stock has enabled modellers to concentrate on other aspects.

 

I will always try to visit the closest shows local to me regardless of the layouts on offer, it gives a chance to meet up with people I know for a chat among other things.

DEMU Showcase is exactly the sort of exhibition that appeals to me for a longer trip, the list of attendees conformed that. Having enjoyed a trip to Burton on Trent a few years ago I had looked at the possibility of a trip from Devon up to Sutton Coldfield for the 2024 show. I would have made the long trip but the Cross Country rail replacement buses made it a ridiculously long day.

 

I like to make it a day out to visit an exhibition, and will happily spend 60 to 90 minutes travel each way. I will make longer trips, but that is where a decent description of attending layouts and demonstrations will encourage me to go,

 

cheers

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 31/05/2024 at 12:18, ianmianmianm said:

You come out having seen 3 really good visiting layouts and 22 poor layouts that have apparently all been built by the same block and in a massive rush. 

 

You've been to ModelRail Scotland then?

 

Mike.

[Modelrailwayquest]

For my upcoming show in Sevenoaks, apart from all the usual event notices on RM web, UK Model shop etc, I am running a series of daily short videos highlighting one layout or trader on my Facebook page right up to the week of the show.  I also will be filming a pre show YouTube promoting all the layouts and traders, directions and floor plans etc.  I fully accept when first mentioning a show on social media, layouts and traders are not confirmed, however it takes 10 mins max only to update UK model shops or RM web etc and also club websites even if it is a just few days before the show. My Woolwich and Hastings shows have limited info at present but as soon as full line up confirmed, they will also be getting the full social media treatment.  What I have found is on occasion, even the main website doesn't mention there is even a railway show on and carries no info.  This often happens it seems with shows run on behalf of preserved or heritage railway groups.  I am surprised how many shows on UK Model Shops even up to the day of the show just say for example 10 layouts and 4 traders etc and nothing else.

Edited July 5 by Modelrailwayquest
udate

[Jol Wilkinson]

Do you video any of the shows such as the expoEMs or Scaleforums where the 4mm "specialist" traders such as Roxey Mouldings, Alan Gibson, Brassmasters, Prickly Pear. and others attend? 

[Philip1812]

I stumbled on this thread by accident whilst looking for something else entirely (as one does), but the questions raised and the comments received are very interesting, and seem to support the ideas I introduced when I started to organise the Manchester MRS exhibitions in 2015.

 

I won’t go to the detail given by DEMU or Stafford, and I won’t post any direct hyperlinks, I’ll simply refer you all to the MMRS listing for December on UKModelshops, which I think contains all the information asked for by other contributors (with one error which I’ll correct when I get time), or to the exhibition page of the Manchester Model Railway Society website which definitely contains all the information asked for (without the error) and quite a bit more besides.

 

I found the several posts made by MarkSG particularly interesting - I’ve also decided to use code 75 bullhead for my next project, and I agree that some compromises are “all part of the willing suspension of disbelief which is necessary for any theatrical setting - and an exhibition layout is, most certainly, a form of theatre.”  However, there are some compromises I find difficult to accept because they are so unnecessary: layouts where there is a gap between the bottom of a structure and the ground it is supposedly built on, and layouts where there is a tectonic gap between the baseboards!

 

I can answer the question raised by StIvesNick and RobK on May 31, because I have been using market research questionnaires as part of my planning process since 2016.

 

Attached are the figures for distance travelled by our adult visitors in 2019 (which was broadly similar to 2015 - 18), and 2023, where information from other sources indicated that the industrial action on the railways would affect the attendance of our more distant visitors.  In each year the sample size was about 16% of the adult attendance, which I regard as statistically reliable.

 

“Distance” is the straight line distance between the venue’s postcode and the visitors’ postcodes, but excludes overseas visitors.

Market research questionnaires are very, very useful.  They have helped identify where best to spend my advertising budget, and have generated a mailing list of almost 3200 email addresses.

.

Distance travelled by visitors 2019&2023.xlsx

[dasatcopthorne]

6 hours ago, Philip1812 said:

I stumbled on this thread by accident whilst looking for something else entirely (as one does), but the questions raised and the comments received are very interesting, and seem to support the ideas I introduced when I started to organise the Manchester MRS exhibitions in 2015.

 

I won’t go to the detail given by DEMU or Stafford, and I won’t post any direct hyperlinks, I’ll simply refer you all to the MMRS listing for December on UKModelshops, which I think contains all the information asked for by other contributors (with one error which I’ll correct when I get time), or to the exhibition page of the Manchester Model Railway Society website which definitely contains all the information asked for (without the error) and quite a bit more besides.

 

I found the several posts made by MarkSG particularly interesting - I’ve also decided to use code 75 bullhead for my next project, and I agree that some compromises are “all part of the willing suspension of disbelief which is necessary for any theatrical setting - and an exhibition layout is, most certainly, a form of theatre.”  However, there are some compromises I find difficult to accept because they are so unnecessary: layouts where there is a gap between the bottom of a structure and the ground it is supposedly built on, and layouts where there is a tectonic gap between the baseboards!

 

I can answer the question raised by StIvesNick and RobK on May 31, because I have been using market research questionnaires as part of my planning process since 2016.

 

Attached are the figures for distance travelled by our adult visitors in 2019 (which was broadly similar to 2015 - 18), and 2023, where information from other sources indicated that the industrial action on the railways would affect the attendance of our more distant visitors.  In each year the sample size was about 16% of the adult attendance, which I regard as statistically reliable.

 

“Distance” is the straight line distance between the venue’s postcode and the visitors’ postcodes, but excludes overseas visitors.

Market research questionnaires are very, very useful.  They have helped identify where best to spend my advertising budget, and have generated a mailing list of almost 3200 email addresses.

.

Distance travelled by visitors 2019&2023.xlsx 9.99 kB · 5 downloads

That's an xlsx file and I have no way of opening it.

 

Dave.

[stivesnick]

8 hours ago, Philip1812 said:

I can answer the question raised by StIvesNick and RobK on May 31, because I have been using market research questionnaires as part of my planning process since 2016.

 

Thanks for the information on distance travelled that is most helpful.

 

Nick 

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, dasatcopthorne said:

That's an xlsx file and I have no way of opening it.

 

Practically any spreadsheet software can open it - including OpenOffice, which runs on Windows, OSX and Linux, and Apple Numbers on an iPad or Mac. You can also open it online in Google Sheets. 

 

Although originally created by Microsoft, .xlsx is now an open standards format which has widespread cross-platform support. 

[MarkSG]

8 hours ago, Philip1812 said:

Attached are the figures for distance travelled by our adult visitors in 2019 (which was broadly similar to 2015 - 18), and 2023, where information from other sources indicated that the industrial action on the railways would affect the attendance of our more distant visitors.  In each year the sample size was about 16% of the adult attendance, which I regard as statistically reliable.

 

Distance travelled by visitors 2019&2023.xlsx 9.99 kB · 12 downloads

 

That's really interesting. Two things do seem to be apparent from the statistics. One is that people seem to be more willing to travel longer distances on the Saturday of a two-day show. That's contrary to my personal experience - I generally prefer to go to the more distant shows on the Sunday, when the roads will be quieter (and I have to drive, because there aren't any shows that are easily reachable by rail from where I live) - but I wonder if that's a reflection of the fact that rail travel is generally more reliable on a Saturday. If you've got the data, it might be interesting to do some correlations between mode of transport and distance travelled.

 

The other thing is that people seem to be less willing to travel longer distances now than they used to be. As you say, that may also be related to increasing unreliability of rail transport. But I also wonder if it might be another of the post-Covid demographic changes that have affected a lot of leisure pursuits. Lockdown created an enforced break in many activities that had previously been a habit, and many people have simply not gone back to what they used to do. 

[Phil Parker]

20 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

That's really interesting. Two things do seem to be apparent from the statistics. One is that people seem to be more willing to travel longer distances on the Saturday of a two-day show. That's contrary to my personal experience - I generally prefer to go to the more distant shows on the Sunday, when the roads will be quieter (and I have to drive, because there aren't any shows that are easily reachable by rail from where I live) - but I wonder if that's a reflection of the fact that rail travel is generally more reliable on a Saturday. If you've got the data, it might be interesting to do some correlations between mode of transport and distance travelled.

 

The other thing is that people seem to be less willing to travel longer distances now than they used to be. As you say, that may also be related to increasing unreliability of rail transport. But I also wonder if it might be another of the post-Covid demographic changes that have affected a lot of leisure pursuits. Lockdown created an enforced break in many activities that had previously been a habit, and many people have simply not gone back to what they used to do. 

 

There are simply more train services on a Saturday, so if you want to travel that way, then it's probably your only option. Also, show attendance has traditionally been 60:40 Sat:Sun because of all those BARGAINZ to be found...

 

Not sure you can take much on the distances people are willing to travel from date for one show for one year. We'd need to correlate a lot more to find any useful trends.

[MikeB]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There are simply more train services on a Saturday, so if you want to travel that way, then it's probably your only option. Also, show attendance has traditionally been 60:40 Sat:Sun because of all those BARGAINZ to be found...

 

Not sure you can take much on the distances people are willing to travel from date for one show for one year. We'd need to correlate a lot more to find any useful trends.

 

It may be that hard core modellers are the ones prepared to make longer journeys and prefer Saturdays because that it when the traders have most stock.

 

How typical are the figures for Manchester, itself a large conurbation with other major population centres (eg Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford) not far away? I suspect that people on average travel further to the larger shows held in smaller towns such as Stafford or Perth.

[Phil Parker]

42 minutes ago, MikeB said:

How typical are the figures for Manchester, itself a large conurbation with other major population centres (eg Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford) not far away?

 

Large conurbations will also be skewed by more readily available public transport. There are lots of shows you simply can't access by bus, and the train is a hike away (I know some put on a bus from the station, but at Leamington, we gave up on that because it cost far more than the numbers using it brought in. Other shows will vary)

[RichardT]

On 18/06/2024 at 16:35, Clive Mortimore said:

This weekend was DEMU's Showcase, OK not your cup of tea when it comes to the period the exhibitors were modelling, but it becomes very hard to not populate a diesel and electric layout not using RTR stock.

Fantastic - please let me know who stocks the rtr LBSC overhead electric emus, NER Tyneside Electrics emus and Newport-Shildon locos, the LNER-trialled Armstrong-Whitworth diesel, the Midland Morecambe-Heysham emus, the Hellingly Hospital and York Gasworks OHL locos,  the C&SLR, CLR and early Met Rly fourth rail locos….
 

At least the NER Quayside branch and the 1920s Met Rly City to Harrow trains are (almost) modellable rtr!

 

Yes, I’m teasing. But “diesel and electric modelling” shouldn’t just be a synonym for “post-1968 British Rail”. Need to keep pushing those manufacturers…

Oh gosh - sorry, really OT.

-)

Edited July 18 by RichardT

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Fantastic - please let me know who stocks the rtr LBSC overhead electric emus, NER Tyneside Electrics emus and Newport-Shildon locos, the LNER-trialled Armstrong-Whitworth diesel, the Midland Morecambe-Heysham emus, the Hellingly Hospital and York Gasworks OHL locos,  the C&SLR, CLR and early Met Rly fourth rail locos….

 

The Hellingly loco is available from Roxey Mouldings. Some of us have already built two...