Freight train derailed between Lancashire and Scotland

[nightstar.train]

37 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

And of course the country is short of bus and coach drivers. to shift 1000+ passengers would need about 200 50 seat coaches with drivers who have enough tacho hours to undertake such work.

 

It's actually 20 coaches, not 200. More doable, but not easy at the drop of a hat. And Preston to Glasgow and back by coach must be 8 hours at least, more if you get traffic, so you'd need drivers that had basically done nothing that day already. 

[beast66606]

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Thats being very selective and rather pedantic.

 

Railway safety systems (which includes the applications of trap / catch points are generally not there to guarantee safety in every single set of circumstances you can think up (particularly in legacy situations)! 

 

In this case ensuring the signal before the points reverts to red via the use of a track circuit interrupter will protect against a high speed collision in 99.9% of cases - the only exception being is if a train happens to have passed the last signal on the up main just as the wagons become de-railed.

 

"the only exception being is if a train happens to have passed it's braking point (which might be a lot further back than the last signal) just as the wagons become de-railed." . (it doesn't have to be high speed although obviously the lower the speed the less the chance of anything significant happening).

 

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Physically clear when creeping past (and with lots of eyes on to shout "Stop") is very different from guaranteeing it to remain clear for all trains to routinely pass at 5mph.

 

Hence the decision to keep the up main blocked - and in any case the point to take away was more NR did actually perform a physical test rather than simply dismissing the idea out of hand as some folk may assume.

 

I think you're quoting the wrong person here, I never said what you appear to be attributing to me -in fact I said the opposite that it WAS deemed to be too close for comfort.

[PaulRhB]

47 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

It was clear - just - a test loco passed (0Z57, Carlisle - Carlisle via Tebay) at 5mph and was deemed to be too close for comfort hence the SLW remained in force.
 

 

Yes, we were lucky that we could create more room as the loco nearly foul wasn’t actually derailed so we were able to remove that after downloading and recording and chain and chock the derailed vehicle so there was no way it was going to move anywhere. 

 

47 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

Wouldn't like to try passing at high speed though.

No, agreed ‘dynamic’ gauging is a tad different as the vibration and air pressure can affect the safe clearances. 
 

Overall looks to be they got the heavy lifting gear there fast and removed it as soon as it was all recorded and no doubt RAIB were ok to let them proceed. That’s another thing that has to be considered as the legal side has changed significantly since BR and following the procedures often means waiting for a RAIB agent or inspector to assess the site before anything is touched. As this was technically in sidings but nearly foul of the main I’d be surprised if they didn’t need at least photos to be assessed remotely before declaring if they were going to investigate so you can’t just jump in even when resources are immediately available. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

 

A TC interrupter doesn't help if the Pendo is 200 yards away - thats what the traps are for and - imho - should have done a better job at deflecting the errant wagons away from the running line.

 

 

 

Yes, ideally traps should deflect errants wagons to a "safe" position, but you can't actually test that the trap you've just installed as proof that it works.  Even if you deliberately ran a condemned vehcile through in an attempt to demonstrate it and get a satsifactory result, you can't assume that some other vehicle would behave in like fashion.  And on top of that, the derailed vehicle would likely do some other damage, for example to sleepers.

 

TC interrupters are useful - but only if the line is track-circuited of course.  With more and more of the network now using axle counters, I don't know if there's a analogous device for those areas. 

[jjb1970]

Between Lancashire and Scotland, would that be Cumbria?🤪

[Crisis Rail]

8 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

 

Yes, we were lucky that we could create more room as the loco nearly foul wasn’t actually derailed so we were able to remove that after downloading and recording and chain and chock the derailed vehicle so there was no way it was going to move anywhere. 

 

No, agreed ‘dynamic’ gauging is a tad different as the vibration and air pressure can affect the safe clearances. 
 

Overall looks to be they got the heavy lifting gear there fast and removed it as soon as it was all recorded and no doubt RAIB were ok to let them proceed. That’s another thing that has to be considered as the legal side has changed significantly since BR and following the procedures often means waiting for a RAIB agent or inspector to assess the site before anything is touched. As this was technically in sidings but nearly foul of the main I’d be surprised if they didn’t need at least photos to be assessed remotely before declaring if they were going to investigate so you can’t just jump in even when resources are immediately available. 

Yes. Common-sense has prevailed for once. A surprising rarity in this day and age. 
As for rerailing was it the same crew that sorted the Swanage mess out in record time last week?  All in all a refreshing good effort all round. 
 

Was up yesterday on the A6 no sign of anything. 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, Crisis Rail said:

As for rerailing was it the same crew that sorted the Swanage mess out in record time last week?  All in all a refreshing good effort all round. 

That was Swanage’s own team according to the note on social media. 

Edited June 1 by PaulRhB

[The Stationmaster]

On 30/05/2024 at 19:59, phil-b259 said:

 

(1) Physical Investigations involving an actual loco were made by NR to see if the wagons could be passed by trains on the up main at 5mph but the clearances were insufficient for this to be a safe option.

 

(2) Single line working was quickly set up on the down line, however at certain points during the closure of the up main both Avanti and TPE explicitly told NR they would not be taking advantage of it preferring to terminate either side. Of course if your TOC is very short of drivers and is mired in industrial relations disputes then when disruption strikes you are not going to be able to call in favours like drivers varying their booked turns or working extra hours - something which is a given if single line working is to be utilised.

 

In short the real problem yesterday was the dire state of industrial relations in the industry - something which is ENTIRELY the result of years of DfT micromanagement and their fostering of a hostile environment for staff under their cut, cut, cut agenda.

 

There is also the possibility that it would have been more financially advantageous for Avanti and First group to not try and run services as they could get grater compensation from NR by cancelling everything than they would do if things ran through but were delayed. If so then I suspect an over focus on the financials to please the DfT and their private shareholders was the cause - and again something which the DfT can be held 100% responsible for...

As both West Coast/Avanti and TPE are no longer franchises but are run under contract to DfT 'the shareholders' won't have made a penny out of it.  But very definitely 100% down to DafT ineptitude yet again where they can't even specify contracts properly let alone manage franchise renewals.

 

What horrifies me about all of this is the apparent total ineptitude of NR and  certain operators to organise a robust reduced timetable over the reversibly signalled stretch (even if it is a long one).  Anything would be better than queues outside the station at Glasgow Central and crowds of passengers left on the platform at Preston in late evening.  In fact the latter suggests that nobody had even bothered to advise people about the alternative routes which do exist and how to get to/use them and make arrangements for tickets to be honoured although on past experience that sort of network knowledge seems sadly lacking in many more places than Preston or stations south thereof.

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Between Lancashire and Scotland, would that be Cumbria?🤪

One of two alternatives =- you can also go across the Pennies to the ECML and get to Scotland on that (requires tickets to be honoured of course.   But the operators most intimately involved all happen to have been contracted to do the job by DafT so surely that place of seemingly inexhaustible railway expertise could actually have made such provisions in its own contracts?  But of course those who know nothing of the railway while considering themselves 'experts' haven't even reached the stage of being 'perts' let along former 'perts'.

[caradoc]

47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

nobody had even bothered to advise people about the alternative routes which do exist and how to get to/use them and make arrangements for tickets to be honoured although on past experience that sort of network knowledge seems sadly lacking in many more places than Preston or stations south thereof.

 

At Edinburgh on Thursday morning passengers for Birmingham and beyond were certainly being advised to use Cross Country (XC) trains via the ECML, which had the unfortunate result of making those services even more crowded than normal; But at least people were moving. There was however subsequent disruption to XC after a report of an unexploded bomb near Sheffield. And at Newcastle passengers for Carlisle were alighting from LNER services from Kings X to travel onward by Northern, although that route was affected by flooding resulting in cancellations. Just a day to stay in the house!

 

 

[Wheatley]

25 minutes ago, caradoc said:

There was however subsequent disruption to XC after a report of an unexploded bomb near Sheffield.

Shut for six hours between Meadowhall and Sheffield after groundworkers dug up something bomb shaped. Turned out to be scrap buried on the old Forgemasters site but it killed XC's timetable for the whole of Thursday afternoon. The railway was within the 100m cordon. 

 

Leeds-York was also closed at the same time by a midweek possesion for a bridge replacement (because everyone now travels at the weekend apparently), with services diverted via Doncaster and ... er ... Sheffield via Meadowhall. Oh dear. 

Edited June 1 by Wheatley

[beast66606]

An album of photos of the derailment  - not mine

 

 

[adb968008]

On 31/05/2024 at 22:14, phil-b259 said:

 

A very valid point which many in their haste to TOC bash completely ignore!

 

From the control logs I note whenever disruption occurs and busses are required its increasingly hard to get hold of any (and thats even in densely populated SE England with lots of bus companies / operations to ring round and ask .....)

Airlines are required to find hotels.

Taxis, Uber etc all exist.

 

Not everyone at Preston is going to Glasgow, some may just be going to Penrith, or even Lancaster… yet as Avanti tip’s out and theres no coordination at Preston, even Barrow trains could go with space.

 

Now it is 2024, its not about the few guys left to pick it all up at Preston, Twitter (X) can be rail industries friend and give advice beyond “dont travel”.. theres even scheduled buses to Carlisle from Preston. Couldnt Avanti have at least run a “lancaster pasdengers only” service ?.. as M&S says, every little helps.

 

The rail industry seem’s to start with the problem, and work forwards, where as most service orientated industries start with the customer and work backwards.. but the difference is service orientated industries risk losing customers, reputation and often have greater financial regulation binding them.

 

Whilst Avanti couldnt find social media, taxis, buses!coaches, Northern services or staff, they did seem to do well at finding law enforcement… no shortage of that.

 

Its worth noting TPE seemed to know where Carlisle and Preston was on the map throughout this, managing a shuttle operation..

 

avanti 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CAR/2024-05-30/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

 

vs tpe..

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CAR/2024-05-30/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

Toc bashing, only when they havent exhausted every avenue trying… Seriously, Avanti even canceled their all the Blackpool North portions on Thursday.. whats that about ?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:BPN/2024-05-30/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

 

Passengers are not cargo, they are real people, and very few are travelling for the fun of it, they all have reasons to travel and reasons to be there, empowering them to make decisions, like arranging an uber from Lancaster to Carlilse, and Avanti putting on a shuttle to Glasgow is better than a cold night on Preston hoping for the best, whilst the staff get paid for sitting in a warm backroom and the units on depot.

 

The engineers deserve the pat on the back for resolving the issue as quickly as they did, but the front end of the business speaks for itself in social media complaints.

 

By comparison I had a 20 hour delay from Berlin on a week last friday, saw several cancelations, ultimately routed home to London via Munich and Frankfurt.. yet hotel, meal and taxi vouchers were issued with 90 minutes, some without me even knowing and just emailed automatically, and 1 week later the airline has already paid compensation to my account too…

 

my  late arrival to London yesterday after my week up north, who knows how long that will take and what hoops i need to go through… even though the fare price paid werent that different, but the “business” service culture is completely different.

Edited June 1 by adb968008
O

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

An album of photos of the derailment  - not mine

Many thanks for the link.  Looks like they dragged the vehicles back on with the loco - probably the quickest way.

 

22 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

ideally traps should deflect errants wagons to a "safe" position

Prior to my retirement the NR track standard required that traps should deflect clear of the running line.  It was the signalling standard that called for risk assessment if they didn’t.  Trouble is, it appeared to me that track design assumed that a set of double rail B switches met the requirement.  I know plenty of examples where a B switch has proved insufficient.

 

This is an excellent example of signalling technology being unable to manage everything - TPWS (if fitted) would have been totally ineffective as it wouldn’t have any effect until all the wagons had been pushed through the traps.  Thats a big pile of debris!!
 

Paul.

[Southernman46]

At least the wagons didn't reach the OHLE mast ................... silver lining 👍

 

That crossing will give some problems soon though if it's left voiding like that .................................... 😬

 

The question of traps and where to send the vehicle is knotty - these two I experienced back in 2001 and then 2004 whilst Ops Manager at Waterloo occurred at the east end of Clapham Yard on a brand-new layout (2004) and saw SPAD's on the yard exit dummy divert the train into the on-coming traffic on the adjacent Down Windsor Slow - VERY VERY luckily (given the potential 12 trains an hour using that line) they didn't hit anything head-on at some 60 mph (Windsor PSR).

 

Edited June 2 by Southernman46

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Airlines are required to find hotels.

Taxis, Uber etc all exist.

 

...

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

mparison I had a 20 hour delay from Berlin on a week last friday, saw several cancelations, ultimately routed home to London via Munich and Frankfurt.. yet hotel, meal and taxi vouchers were issued with 90 minutes, some without me even knowing and just emailed automatically, and 1 week later the airline has already paid compensation to my account too…

 

Exactly - they have to - a condition of them operating in Europe is they have to find accommodation, supply food and drink, and pay compensation when a significant delay is in their control. Although no great surprise, some airlines are better than others. I've been caught up in a delay that went past the threshold once with Easyjet. They gave us all a £5 vending machine card for a snack and drink, and I was supposed to be collected from the destination airport by my wife and daughter, but as it was so late, they arranged and paid for a taxi for me. I was under the threshold for compensation, but as no real harm was done, I was fine with just getting home.

 

Back to the derailment - if there were similar requirements on TOCs - it was a freight train that felll off, so outside the TOC's control.

[Jim Martin]

40 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

At least the wagons didn't reach the OHLE mast ................... silver lining 👍

 

That crossing will give some problems soon though if it's left voiding like that .................................... 😬

 

The question of traps and where to send the vehicle is knotty - these two one I experienced back in 2001 and then 2004 whilst Ops Manager at Waterloo occurred at the east end of Clapham Yard on a brand-new layout (2004) and saw a SPAD on the yard exit dummy divert the train into the on-coming traffic on the diverging Down Windsor - Down Windsor Fast / Down Windsor Slow - VERY VERY luckily (given the 12 trains an hour using that line) they didn't hit anything head-on at some 60 mph (Windsor PSR).

 

Isn't there some sort of "double sided trap" that puts a train onto the ballast, but keeps it more or less in line with the rails?

 

Jim

[big jim]

35 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

Isn't there some sort of "double sided trap" that puts a train onto the ballast, but keeps it more or less in line with the rails?

 

Jim

there’s one at olive mount/edge hill on the exit from the docks branch toward tuebrook sidings, drops the train into the 4ft, I’ve got a pic somewhere 

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

Isn't there some sort of "double sided trap" that puts a train onto the ballast, but keeps it more or less in line with the rails?

I’m guessing that those at Hardendale were that type.  Usually fine if something rolls out slowly - drops onto the ballast and stops fairly quickly.  If there’s more momentum, or it’s being pushed (as the photos imply here) then the wheel that’s dropped into the 4 foot gets dragged across foul of the running line.

 

Page 16 of the RAIB report for Brentingbury (loops at Melton Mowbray) shows the same effect and a ‘nearly caused a collision’.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c9057ed915d4c0d0001ab/R012007_070123_Brentingby.pdf

 

Paul.

[5BarVT]

8 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

At least the wagons didn't reach the OHLE mast ................... silver lining 👍

My perception is that back in the early 70s OLE designers understood not to put masts in the run off zone if traps.

By the 90s (Paddington) they had lost that skill.  :-)

Paul.

[Southernman46]

8 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

Isn't there some sort of "double sided trap" that puts a train onto the ballast, but keeps it more or less in line with the rails?

 

Jim

Yes - Platform 3 at Woking has a set. There's also (and I forget the exact terminology) a set of "B" switches with extended rails that grip the wheel and gradually arrest the train movement - there are sets of these installed at each end of the Hampton Court Loop platform at Surbiton that then enable the stabling of stock "on the mainline".

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

Isn't there some sort of "double sided trap" that puts a train onto the ballast, but keeps it more or less in line with the rails?

 

Jim

 

Yes, a Wide to Gauge, though this example's a narrow gauge wide to gauge!

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

At least the wagons didn't reach the OHLE mast ................... silver lining 👍

 

That crossing will give some problems soon though if it's left voiding like that .................................... 😬

 

The question of traps and where to send the vehicle is knotty - these two I experienced back in 2001 and then 2004 whilst Ops Manager at Waterloo occurred at the east end of Clapham Yard on a brand-new layout (2004) and saw SPAD's on the yard exit dummy divert the train into the on-coming traffic on the adjacent Down Windsor Slow - VERY VERY luckily (given the potential 12 trains an hour using that line) they didn't hit anything head-on at some 60 mph (Windsor PSR).

 

This is the sort of situation we here a wide-to-gauge trap (in the right place) could be far more effective but they seem to be anathema on todays's railway.  No doubt needing a bit more time and skill to seup in the first place and inevitably resulting in a lot more track damage if they are run through but massively safer than diverting a runaway or SPAD towards a potential head-on collision.

[5BarVT]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, a Wide to Gauge, though this example's a narrow gauge wide to gauge!

Oops forgot about them!

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

This is the sort of situation we here a wide-to-gauge trap (in the right place) could be far more effective but they seem to be anathema on todays's railway.  

I understand train operators don’t like them because they cause much more damage to the wheel set.  If it’s a traction axle, very expensive.

(My cynical mind says it’s much cheaper for them to demand infrastructure that puts the cost onto the Infrastructure Manager when they run through them. ;-)

Paul.

[locoholic]

I get the impression that even if the Settle and Carlisle line was electrified, it wouldn't be used for diversions. Resilience is now seen as an unaffordable luxury.

The rail industry has become like the NHS - all that matters is that it exists - the quality of what it actually delivers is immaterial.