Freight train derailed between Lancashire and Scotland

[Craig1989]

 

taken from nr twitter media account it seems at hardendale a steel train has derailed. Avanti west coast and transpenine have told people not to travel between Preston and Scotland. 
 

cheers Craig 

[beast66606]

3 x BYA Wagons from South Wales were taken North on 6M73, Margam - Hardendale and then attached to 6V71, Hardendale - Margam for movement (back) to Warrington Arpley and onwards to Stoke Marcroft for maintenance - a long way round but utilising a train booked to stop at Arpley (6V71) rather than putting one inside to detach.

 

More concerning seems to be that while the trap did it's job and derailed the wagons it looks like they still blocked a high speed line - it could have been a lot worse.

 

 

Edited May 30 by beast66606
Added it looks like

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting that the opposite line is completely clear and could therefore be used

[Gilbert]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting that the opposite line is completely clear and could therefore be used

5Z43 (LSL Pullman) is currently shown approaching from the south  (1353)

[Cruachan]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting that the opposite line is completely clear and could therefore be used

The Down Main has been used bi-directionally between Penrith and Tebay since the incident occurred yesterday, for selected services; primarily freight, but the Up and Down Lowland and Highland Sleepers also operated that way last night, incurring significant delays this morning as a result.

Edited May 30 by Cruachan

[adb968008]

Single line operation is in use, I think quite a long stretch.

 

Absolute choas at Preston last night.

The entire length of p3/4 was packed with people, with large numbers of police for crowd control… At least 1000+ people, multiple trains had decamped passengers there with no obvious coordination… just lining and filling every bit of the platform, and these two are very long, and very deep platforms (from mail train days).

 

I guess Avanti was just turning up and tipping everyone out at Preston to fend for themselves.

 

I passed through 2130 last night on an Airport service and was amazed at how many people there was, hence looked up what had happened.

 

Its a pity there isnt an operator with cdl compliant stock and locos that could be called on at short notice to put on an extra working or two via the 2 alternative routes that exist, and is in the local area.

 

Indeed its a pity Avanti voyagers couldnt be routed via the s&c.

 

Are passengers being suggested to use Northern via Barrow ?

 

 

 

Edited May 30 by adb968008

[big jim]

I’ve just departed Glasgow on the 14:34 which had a queue right out of the front of the station when I got here, I think this is the first train south out of Glasgow

 

the guard is still having to announce for people to get bags off seats as there are people stood in the vestibules, she’s not taking any messing though, just said ‘if you haven’t removed them by the time I come down the train I will charge you the full  single fare to london for use of the the seat’ 

 

I’ve got a 20 min change at Preston for the service to Birmingham, that’s normally an Edinburgh train but it’s starting in Preston today, hopefully if we’re late they might have the foresight to hold it for us 

[adb968008]

Looking at RTT northbound today…

 

2x CS made it, 1 Avanti, 1 TPE, plus a freight and LSL ecs…

though rtt suggests the LSL and freights havent yet crossed the gap.

 

Southbound, theres a bit of a queue… 1M67 just made it across 67L…

 

not much made it south so far.. 1 freight, 2x sleepers…

1T46 looks like the first southbound regular passenger that will make it… currently 111L.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30 by adb968008

[Bob-65b]

According to National Rail that's the main lines opened for normal service though to expect delays whilst the service gets back to normal....

 

Though I have to say advising everything is back to normal but not to travel North of Preston sounds like these days they still can't manage a piss up in brewery :)

 

Edited May 30 by Bob Reid
Additional comment.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

More concerning seems to be that while the trap did it's job and derailed the wagons it looks like they still blocked a high speed line - it could have been a lot worse.

 

 

Thats why such trap points are usually fitted with a track circuit interrupter on the run off.

 

This is simply a sacrificial bit of metal standing proud of the rail that gets broken off by any wheel passing over it. When it breaks it also cuts an electrical circuit - and that circuit is usually track circuit indication of the line which will be fouled by something coming off the rails via the catch /trap point.

 

That was exactly what happened in this case - as soon as the wagon snapped the track circuit interrupter the track circuit on the adjacent up main went occupied* (and would stay that way until the interrupter was physically replaced) 

 

* The first indication anyone had that something was aims was when the signaller at Carlisle saw the track circuit on the up  main suddenly become occupied for no reason.

[adb968008]

So 1T46 made it to Preston and terminated.

further southbounds a convoy of 1M87 (63L), 1M13 (56L) , 1M75 (78L), 1M88 (19L)  and 5H88 followed in sequence behind it.

 

Theres nothing else heading south of Carlilse on the wcml at all now between Lockerbie and Shap, with just 1M13 approaching Lockerbie.

 

northbound .. 1s66 and 1c72 (windermere ) between Preston and Shap.

 

All very empty.

Edited May 30 by adb968008

[brushman47544]

Topics like this should come with a health warning and perhaps be under a separate thread, so those of us old enough to remember how British Rail used to get on with it and find ways to keep trains running, can avoid reading them and how appallingly passengers, sorry customers, are currently treated when things go wrong.

Edited May 30 by brushman47544

[Bob-65b]

30 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Topics like this should come with a health warning and perhaps be under a separate thread, so those of us old enough to remember how British Rail used to get on with it and find ways to keep trains running, can avoid reading them and how appallingly passengers, sorry customers, are currently treated when things go wrong.

Sadly from my days in Regional Control, I do remember the efforts the Operations Staff made to make sure some kind of service was given to the passengers after our guys had cleared the line.  Though I guess the guys hands are very much tied these days.

Edited May 30 by Bob Reid
Grammer!

[big jim]

Just gone past at line speed and there is no sign of the wagons which surprised me as I thought they may have needed inspecting before being moved, more to the point im surprised they’ve been inspected as quick as they appear to have been to be able to move 

 

 

[Reorte]

My mum was heading back that way yesterday. It would've happened about an hour before her train passed by heading north, at slow speed. Fortunately for her the delays hadn't had time to accumulate and she was just ten minutes late at Penrith.

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, Bob Reid said:

Sadly from my days in Regional Control, I do remember the efforts the Operations Staff made to make sure some kind of service was given to the passengers after our guys had cleared the line.

 

Every time an incident blocked one line of the WCML (in Scotland in my case) at the subsequent review/blame session I moaned/pointed out that bi-directional signalling would give massive savings in delays and costs to the railway; Not that it ever made any difference. It might have though had someone sat down and assessed the impact of every such blockage. 

 

Even before I retired Single Line Working, immensely disruptive as it is anyway, was becoming harder and more time-consuming to organise thanks to the lack of staff, such as PW passed out for Handsignaller duties.  

 

[Busmansholiday]

3 hours ago, big jim said:

Just gone past at line speed and there is no sign of the wagons which surprised me as I thought they may have needed inspecting before being moved, more to the point im surprised they’ve been inspected as quick as they appear to have been to be able to move 

 

 

Both Margam and Hardendale are locations of Tata Steel premises with plenty of sidings, so they may have been moved inside Shap (Tata's name for Hardendale) using one of the works shunting locos to get the line clear and allow inspection later.

Edited May 30 by Busmansholiday

[phil-b259]

22 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Topics like this should come with a health warning and perhaps be under a separate thread, so those of us old enough to remember how British Rail used to get on with it and find ways to keep trains running, can avoid reading them and how appallingly passengers, sorry customers, are currently treated when things go wrong.

 

(1) Physical Investigations involving an actual loco were made by NR to see if the wagons could be passed by trains on the up main at 5mph but the clearances were insufficient for this to be a safe option.

 

(2) Single line working was quickly set up on the down line, however at certain points during the closure of the up main both Avanti and TPE explicitly told NR they would not be taking advantage of it preferring to terminate either side. Of course if your TOC is very short of drivers and is mired in industrial relations disputes then when disruption strikes you are not going to be able to call in favours like drivers varying their booked turns or working extra hours - something which is a given if single line working is to be utilised.

 

In short the real problem yesterday was the dire state of industrial relations in the industry - something which is ENTIRELY the result of years of DfT micromanagement and their fostering of a hostile environment for staff under their cut, cut, cut agenda.

 

There is also the possibility that it would have been more financially advantageous for Avanti and First group to not try and run services as they could get grater compensation from NR by cancelling everything than they would do if things ran through but were delayed. If so then I suspect an over focus on the financials to please the DfT and their private shareholders was the cause - and again something which the DfT can be held 100% responsible for...

Edited May 31 by phil-b259

[beast66606]

On 30/05/2024 at 15:34, phil-b259 said:

 

Thats why such trap points are usually fitted with a track circuit interrupter on the run off.

 

This is simply a sacrificial bit of metal standing proud of the rail that gets broken off by any wheel passing over it. When it breaks it also cuts an electrical circuit - and that circuit is usually track circuit indication of the line which will be fouled by something coming off the rails via the catch /trap point.

 

That was exactly what happened in this case - as soon as the wagon snapped the track circuit interrupter the track circuit on the adjacent up main went occupied* (and would stay that way until the interrupter was physically replaced) 

 

* The first indication anyone had that something was aims was when the signaller at Carlisle saw the track circuit on the up  main suddenly become occupied for no reason.

 

A TC interrupter doesn't help if the Pendo is 200 yards away - thats what the traps are for and - imho - should have done a better job at deflecting the errant wagons away from the running line.

 

 

[roythebus1]

And of course the country is short of bus and coach drivers. to shift 1000+ passengers would need about 200 50 seat coaches with drivers who have enough tacho hours to undertake such work.

[PaulRhB]

On 30/05/2024 at 12:57, Craig1989 said:

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

should have done a better job at deflecting the errant wagons away from the running line.

In the left hand image they do look to be clear enough to avoid contact in such an emergency, certainly looks about the same as my experience of one where the interrupter was smashed off and while we ran at extreme caution to release a trapped train as it was passable. 
 

[beast66606]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

In the left hand image they do look to be clear enough to avoid contact in such an emergency, certainly looks about the same as my experience of one where the interrupter was smashed off and while we ran at extreme caution to release a trapped train as it was passable. 
 

 

It was clear - just - a test loco passed (0Z57, Carlisle - Carlisle via Tebay) at 5mph and was deemed to be too close for comfort hence the SLW remained in force. Wouldn't like to try passing at high speed though.

[phil-b259]

50 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

A TC interrupter doesn't help if the Pendo is 200 yards away - thats what the traps are for and - imho - should have done a better job at deflecting the errant wagons away from the running line.

 

 

 

Thats being very selective and rather pedantic.

 

Railway safety systems (which includes the applications of trap / catch points) are generally not there to guarantee safety in every single set of circumstances you can think up (particularly in legacy situations)! 

 

In this case ensuring the signal before the points reverts to red via the use of a track circuit interrupter will protect against a high speed collision in 99.9% of cases - the only exception being is if a train happens to have passed the last signal on the up main just as the wagons become de-railed.

Edited May 31 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

17 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

It was clear - just - a test loco passed (0Z57, Carlisle - Carlisle via Tebay) at 5mph and was deemed to be too close for comfort hence the SLW remained in force. Wouldn't like to try passing at high speed though.

 

Physically clear when creeping past (and with lots of eyes on to shout "Stop") is very different from guaranteeing it to remain clear for all trains to routinely pass at 5mph.

 

Hence the decision to keep the up main blocked - and in any case the point to take away was more NR did actually perform a physical test rather than simply dismissing the idea out of hand as some folk may assume.

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

And of course the country is short of bus and coach drivers. to shift 1000+ passengers would need about 200 50 seat coaches with drivers who have enough tacho hours to undertake such work.

 

A very valid point which many in their haste to TOC bash completely ignore!

 

From the control logs I note whenever disruption occurs and busses are required its increasingly hard to get hold of any (and thats even in densely populated SE England with lots of bus companies / operations to ring round and ask .....)