Hattons Class 66 with Lok Pilot 5 ESU Decoder - Tail lights on F2

[Matti]

Hello RM Web, 

 

To save the backstory, it's been a long time since i've been able to place a loco on some live wires after i moved to switzerland for work - and boy do i love it - but even better now, years later, i can place a loco down on some track... it explains the years of gap in what i'm about to ask, no doubt the community has moved on :)

 

I purchased an original hattons 66, specifically the biffa the flying dustbin. At the time I didn't have a DCC chip to go with it so it remained in the box waiting for its time to shine.

 

Just recently, I purchased a LokPilot (not LokSound) V5 21 pin decoder mtc. Techncially, the decoder functions, is addressable, and runs the loco. However I do not have full control over lighting and a few odd things happen. 

 

I am using a gaugemaster prodigy adv2 system.

 

• F0 on or off the is a marker light always illuminated in both directions
• Tail lights can be triggered with F2, however this acts like a horn and only the lights appear for a brief moment.
• I cannot control other lighting functions or at least, the functions do not align to the manual when testing them. 

 

For a 21-pin decoder i am not technically know-how enough to understand why this wouldn't run all of the same functions that the sound would - minus the sound.

 

I have never programmed a CV value before, and i did read on RM web in another post that it would be possible to move F2 to another function on the decoder, but following the post step by step resulted in no progress. The tail lights still only come on momentarily.

 

Can anyone help me to understand what i can do to get the loco to function with this decoder or do i need another decoder, i don't really want to invest the £100 just to get a sound decoder.

 

Thank you :)

[Kaput]

Unfortunately the Hatton's 66 requires the MKL version of a Lokpilot/Loksound which will be the source of many of your lightning issues.

 

Secondly, out of the box an ESU decoder generally only has bog standard front/rear light functions actually mapped to a button. Everything else needs configured by the user.

 

It can be done with CV editing but the complexity of the function mapping on ESU makes it a bit of a nightmare.

 

Dealing with ESU decoders is much more enjoyable if you either have some way to connect your controller to a computer or get a Lokprogrammer/Sprog so you can either use JMRI/Decoder Pro or the ESU Lokprogrammer software.

 

If all else fails you can use the ESU software without a connection (software is free from ESU website) and setup the function mapping then go to Tools > Show Changed CV's and it'll give you a list of what CV's to manually change.

 

Some retailers (pretty sure its still an option from DC kits for example) will sell you a pre-programmed Lokpilot which is maybe the best option in the short term.

Edited May 29 by Kaput

[Matti]

Thank you ! 
 

ok so, roger that step 1; look for a pre programmed chip from a retailer (unlikely to find I guess) but I will try. 
 

Secondly, buy an MKL decoder version. 
 

Thirdly try to reprogram this chip. 
 

i think this is why I’ve found a fondness for buying sound locos everything just works :) 

[jpendle]

Fourthly, buy an equivalent Zimo chip, much easier to program without the need for Decoder pro or a sprog.

 

John P

[charliepetty]

Finding a pre programmed Class 66 MKL decoder is easy.

 

The producers of this Hattons Project is Legomanbiffo-dckits.

 

 

 

[Matti]

Hi Charlie, unfortunately I live in Switzerland it's not so easy :)

 

UPDATE: I purchased an ESU 59659 LokPilot 5 DCC - this is an MKL decoder according to ESU.

 

The good news; this now has a lot more 'working' functions - such as

- turning on individual head lights and control of either end cab lights.

 

The not so good news; function 2 is still the 'rear' tail lights. And still operates as a momentum function applying only when pressed.

 

So;

I assume i will need to programme the CV to change function 2 to something else.

However, i don't have an accurate list of functions. The manuals with the loco (I purchased it new) only include function list for 6 function decoders. Then under LokSound5 (i am using LokPilot 5) it says 'see included dcc sound function list for dcc functions on this decoder'...

 

Questions:

- Does anyone have a list of functions for a non-sound version of the loco, beyond the 6 functions in the manual?

- Once we know the functions that are not in use, can someone help me with the CV values i'll need to use to change it from  X>Y.

 

Thank you :)!

[jpendle]

Maybe a bit simplistic, but why not just press function buttons on your Prodigy until you find one that doesn't do anything?

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Nigelcliffe]

You can work it out by going backwards, then forwards again.   Either from the manuals (its moderately complex) or using some computer software (either the Lokprogrammer software or JMRI, both a free to use the software, the expense is the hardware to connect it to the decoder). 

 

 

From the LokPilot V5 manual.   Find the default line in mapping, section 12.4.   That says the F2-key controls Aux2 output (line 8), and also that the F1-key controls Aux1 output (line 7).   I guess that the F1-key is the "front tail light".  

As such, a sensible change might be: 

F1-key in "forwards direction" is "rear tail light"    AND 

F1-key in "reverse direction" is "front tail light"

 

So, from the table in section 12.4, look at "mapping line"  7 and mapping line 8.   

 

Line 7:   for Aux1 and the F1 key, need to change this to F1-key in "reverse direction", rather than any direction. 

Section 12.2.2.1 has the "condition blocks", and looking at those: 

"Control CV A" has "direction", along with the F1 key,   and  "Control CV B" has the F2 key.    So, for this one, we only need to find the relevant "Control CV A" for line 7. 

 

Section 12.2.2 and the huge multi-page "mapping chart", read across line 7, and find CV32 (value=3)  and CV A (353).  

To make the change, 

First set CV32 correctly, so write CV32=3

Then read CV353 (Control CV A for row 7), should read a value of 64 (F1 Key is On).   To add "in reverse direction", need to add 8 to this CV (64+8=72),  so write CV353=72. 

 

Now, the F1-key should be directional for the front tail lights - they will be "on" in reverse direction and "off" if going forwards.  

 

 

Line 8:  where we need CV32, Control CV A and Control CV B,  reading across the mapping chart, to find:

CV32=3 (no change),  Control CV A=369, Control CV B = 370.   
As CV32 is already set to 3, can leave alone. 

Control CV B, CV370, should currently be set to F2 key, so value of 1.  Reading CV370 will confirm that.   But, don't want to use F2 for this, so change CV370, and write CV370=0  (nothing operates in Control CV B). 

Control CV A, CV369, should currently be set to nothing, reading CV369 will confirm value zero.   Require to set F1 key (64) in forward direction (4), added together (64+4=68) that means write CV 369=68. 

 

That should now mean the F1-key will give directional tail lights.   

 

Having finished, tidy up CV32, and write CV32=0 to put things back to default.  

 

 

You can have any other mapping you like, so if wanted, could have moved Aux2 to a different key (say F6), and not worried about directionality, or other more complex conditions.  

 

 

 

 

[Matti]

Wow @Nigelcliffe, thank you for taking the time to explain step by step, and with detail what is happening and why. This is more than i could've expected and I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. It's taught me a few things, most of that the table in the manual for the lok5 are not gobble-de-goop and with a bit of, as you say, backwards and forwards, you can make some sense of it... i wish it was more explicitly clear in the manual (for example adding +8 to get reverse direction) but you've certainly helped me learn a few things tonight.

 

There's one thing i didn't understand: when you're referencing line 7/8 in the mapping table 12.4 - how do i know (what can i learn to know) that is also the same line 7 in the 12.2.2 mapping chart? is it just coincidence or purposeful ? It's just there are a lot more rows in the 12.2.2 table vs 12.4 table so that confused me.

 

Update:

I followed your instructions step by step, however there seems to be no visible result (a headlamp has stopped turning on). Is there a way i can reset the decoder back to default to try again?

 

Just as an example though, check the video i've uploaded. Even taking the simple steps of line 7; you can see that has no visible result on function 1, in forwards or reverse direction. I tried to include captions on the video to show the functions active - but essentially the first time you see the loco with lights is the forward direction. And immediately f1 the taillights are still forward.

 

And i performed a read on the decoder so you can see those CV values.

Even when CV370 is set to 0, function 2 still peforms the momentary on/off of the rear tailights.

 

*cries a little inside*

P.s. i'm not sure why the video loads sooo large like that.

 

Edited June 1 by Matti
commenting on the size of the video

[Nigelcliffe]

 

Decoder Reset is write value of 8 to CV8

 

I'm not sure why the steps are not working, if it's a new decoder, then programming should be able to start from the defaults in the manual.   
It is critical that the index (CV32) is set before making any changes  (also check the other index, CV31=16 - that shouldn't ever change). 
Also note that the index changes as the line is read across, there's a different index value for columns K to Q. 
With the wrong index, CV353 is "something else", the index values allows ESU to get thousands of CVs into something with only a few hundred CV numbers:   there are 1224 CV's in the mapping chart 12.2.2 alone, accessed with less than 256 CV numbers.  

 

Only way to work things out is some more reading of CVs to see if anything else is different to normal.  

 

 

 

How the mapping lines relate to each other (table 12.4 to the big chart in 12.2.2).    
In principle, someone programming can do anything with each mapping line (chart 12.2.2), its entirely up to the person programming.  There are  72 lines, so you can create 72 different rules.    The rules are anything:  function keys, direction of movement, inputs direct to decoder from reed switches, etc) ;  controlling outputs (the wires to lights) and locomotive behaviour (turning momentum on/off, etc. etc..).      [ The same principles are used in LokSound decoders, just add more things to a mapping line, such as sounds ].  
A function key can appear many times, and its possible to have negatives (eg. Fn-key 3 and NOT Fn-key 7).  

 

Out of a box from the factory, a decoder has a default set of mappings, for the LokPilot, they're described in table 12.4, which outlines what each row is doing.  There are rows doing nothing, so they didn't record them, and rows 24 to 37 only have a key allocated with no action.   
By being familiar with the chart (12.2.2), its possible to read the table in 12.4 to knowing that CV-A or CV-B is needed, and its just a matter of looking up the index and CV number for that row.       [ For a LokSound they're the same, but because a sound decoder usually goes via a sound-project writer, that writer is likely to have changed the mappings to do things for their sound project, so the ESU manual becomes a very rough guide, rather than definitive, and one has to work things out ]    

 

 

You'll also notice that the outputs Aux1 and Aux2 often appear with another marker, such as Aux1(1)  or Aux1(condition 1).   This allows those two outputs to have two different sets of light behaviour, such as different flashing rates, or different brightness.   Out of the box, the decoder isn't using the second conditions.  

 

 

 

Changing this stuff is a lot easier with a computer tool, such as JMRI, or the LokProgrammer software.  Both can generate a set of CV changes needed (no hardware purchases necessary), and the user interface in each for changing the function mapping is near enough the same.   It's obviously easier if the hardware is available to do the actual changes direct from the software.  

 

 

Edited June 2 by Nigelcliffe

[Matti]

@Nigelcliffe Thank you, again! I'm going to give part one a try again, i did pop into my local swiss hobby shop however they didn't have the capabilities to edit a decoder. Maybe the next event i go to i can ask if i cannot get it to work myself :)

 

I'll report back my luck!

[Glencoe Model Railway]

Not sure if you have the manual for the DCC system, it’s possible that the F2 needs to be switched to latching. It’s nothing to do with the decoders but many systems are set up with f2 as momentary as they are based on the American operations. 
 

Cheers

[Matti]

3 hours ago, Glencoe Model Railway said:

Not sure if you have the manual for the DCC system, it’s possible that the F2 needs to be switched to latching. It’s nothing to do with the decoders but many systems are set up with f2 as momentary as they are based on the American operations. 
 

Cheers

 

It's a great point - my handset does default function 2 to be momentary. However i am using a gaugemaster prodigy advance 2, as far as i've read online nothing in the defaults there forcing that?

[Glencoe Model Railway]

I’m not too familiar with the GM system but it’s certainly worth checking. All my Digitrax kit has f2 on momentary. I need to manually change them….just haven’t quite got round to it yet! 

[Kaput]

Latching of F2 on a Prodigy cannot be changed at all. Its non latching and always will be.